South Africa - Martin, 55, Theresa, 54, Rudi van Breda, 22, murdered, 26 Jan 2015 #4

[JudgeJudi]

Dr Butler asked if he had wet his pants, #VanBreda said no. Then as afterthought said he heard they had found urine on his pants. Desai asks if there is objective evidence. You can't say when he wet his pants? No, Butler says.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Dr. Butler referring to neurogenic control...and amount of urine on Henri's shorts. Emphasises that there is a LOT of urine discharged.

Have a sense that Dr. Butler is a little eccentric. Refers to evolutionary adaptation of bladder etc, like he's giving a university lecture. This is a courtroom.

I did find it strange when Henri described himself wearing pants & boxers ito his pajamas. Most men [or women] don't go to bed wearing 2 layers of pants/underpants, some don't even wear 1. But no one wears 2 layers to bed...But if you're habitually making glipsies...

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

B: Henri would have been lucid prior to the period of amnesia, after which we would have wet his pants.

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

Dr Butler asked if he had wet his pants, #VanBreda said no. Then as afterthought said he heard they had found urine on his pants. Desai asks if there is objective evidence. You can't say when he wet his pants? No, Butler says.

On probabilities, when did he wet himself? Butler says its highly likely #VanBreda had an epileptic seizure and brain was sufficiently dysfunctional that he then wet himself.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

DESAI: Wasn't it possible he wet himself while waiting for the police? Dr. Butler seems at pains to locate the discharge happening in the 2h 40 window on the stairs. Wasn't any urine found on the crime scene?

Dr. Butler: Highly likely that he wet himself during period of amnesia.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

B: Henri would have been lucid prior to the period of amnesia, after which we would have wet his pants.

B: Highly likely Henri had an epileptic seizure then suffered neurogenic neglect where the brain wasn't working properly. His brain was dysfunctional during this time.

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

Dr Butler asked if he had wet his pants, #VanBreda said no. Then as afterthought said he heard they had found urine on his pants. Desai asks if there is objective evidence. You can't say when he wet his pants? No, Butler says.

On probabilities, when did he wet himself? Butler says its highly likely #VanBreda had an epileptic seizure and brain was sufficiently dysfunctional that he then wet himself.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

DESAI: Wasn't it possible he wet himself while waiting for the police? Dr. Butler seems at pains to locate the discharge happening in the 2h 40 window on the stairs. Wasn't any urine found on the crime scene?

Dr. Butler: Highly likely that he wet himself during period of amnesia.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

B: Henri would have been lucid prior to the period of amnesia, after which we would have wet his pants.

B: Highly likely Henri had an epileptic seizure then suffered neurogenic neglect where the brain wasn't working properly. His brain was dysfunctional during this time.

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

Tonic-clonic seizure always results in postictal state, Dr Butler says. Duration of postictal state varies, also different from one seizure to the next.

In postictal state, brain doesn't function properly typically for a few hours to a few days. Butler points out bruise on #VanBreda's eye. He didn't mention it to Dr Butler. Disassociation, Butler believes, and requires scientific explanation.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

The phenomenon of incontinence is common for those suffering from tonic - clonic epilepsy [Grand Mal seizures]

Butler cites the oddness of Henri not knowing about the bruise over his left eye. Seems to see this as significant. Galloway has suggested Marli hit Henri with her fist in the forehead.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

Tonic-clonic seizure always results in postictal state, Dr Butler says. Duration of postictal state varies, also different from one seizure to the next.

B: Henri's bruise over the frontal region of left eye is significant because he described all his injuries to me when I saw to him but failed to point out this bruise on his left forehead. This needs corroboration

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

[video=youtube;ktPpVPUjNpA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktPpVPUjNpA[/video]

 

[JudgeJudi]

Butler believes #VanBreda remained dysfunctional until this injury was pointed out to him by the district surgeon. He was lucid and clear until he ascended the stairs and passed out. He said he felt "disorientated" afterward.

Emergency services call: Butler says he was struck by lack of urgency and effectiveness after the attack, common in postictal state. #VanBreda doesn't know what happened to his parents. Brain wasn't working properly.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Butler's testimony starting to remind me of Olcker's testimony. Drags, doesn't really go anywhere, lots of general theory and it manages to chew up hours of court time.

[Hilarious. Nick read my post yesterday]

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

B: This is evidence of cognitive neglect and disassociation with other injuries

B: Also, the fact that he wet his pants but never realized adds to this, a fragmented memory.

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

B: I was struck by his lack of urgency and lack of effectiveness in a catastrophic situation, likely caused by being in a postictal state. He was slow, sluggish and dull. He didn't know what happened to his parents when I listened to the voice clip.

B: All of this adds up that his brain wasn't working properly

B: Most people would be more urgent in the face of a catastrophic situation.

B: When the brain is dysfunctional in this state you're still able to walk and talk, but your ability to strategize and other higher orders of cognitive function are impaired

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

#VanBreda lit a cigarette to 'calm himself down'. Butler says one might say its inappropriate, but more plausible if brain is dysfunctional. Can walk and talk, but processing speed and ability to strategise is slowed down. Impaired cognitive function.

#VanBreda version given to police, and put on paper.Version mostly remained consistent. Would person in postictal state be able to fabricate a coherent, lucid version? Highly unlikely, Butler says. Would involve a working, functioning memory; elaborate planning and be consistent.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Butler says when there is deception, the brain is fully functional.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

 

[Bohemian]

[video=youtube;ktPpVPUjNpA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktPpVPUjNpA[/video]

Gosh, it’s interminable isn’t it? :banghead:

I think I’ll read the tweets until Galloway’s cross.

 

[L2L]

Gosh, it’s interminable isn’t it? :banghead:

I think I’ll read the tweets until Galloway’s cross.

Yes, awful! Desai losing patience -having a go at Botha!

 

[JudgeJudi]

When brain doesn't work well, highly unlikely to concoct a very elaborate story, Dr Butler says.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Desai chuckles that the witness is "bordering on usurping my function, but carry on." Just shows where the Judge's mind is on all this.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

B: In postictal state it's unlikely the patient could fabricate stories and strategize

I am finally at court, Dr Butler is continuing evidence in chief- dealing with the possibility of a person post seizure being able to concoct an elaborate plan - Dr Butler certain that it would not be possible to do so

B: During postictal state, the brain is dysfunctional so it would not be able to strategically and elaborately stick to a consistent story that was fabricated

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

Compelling evidence of an epileptic seizure makes malingering as the cause of period of amnesia so unlikely that possibility can effectively be disregarded, Dr Butler says. He was "higher risk" on that night.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

If my eyes don't deceive, Henri is once again wearing his "all the ducks in a row" tie. Dr. Butler wearing a tie with a lot of stars in perfect symmetrical alignment. The ties that bind.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

Dr B: given compelling evidence that he had a seizure that night, malingering as a cause is so unlikely that it could effectively be disregarded

Dr B: we know he has epilepsy from 2015 and I can then draw on conclusion that he was at higher risk that night \

Botha: Would a lack of sleep, stress and alcohol increase risk of a seizure? Butler: Yes

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

VanBreda had 2 or 3 glasses of alcohol that night. After alcohol disappears form brain, epileptics are vulnerable to seizures, Dr Butler says. Stress and lack of sleep also precipitates seizures.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

"Is it just coincidence Henri had an epileptic seizure [a big one] for the first time on the night of the murders? Sleep deprivation, excess alcohol and excess stress all precipitating factors." Says nothing about witnessing a violent attack.

"It's during the process of the alcohol withdrawal from the body [levels declining] that the seizure is most likely." Wonder if the same applies to going cold turkey on dagga or tik...

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

Dr B: his report was 2/3 glasses of alcohol the night of the murders

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

One night of not sleeping wouldn't be considered extreme, Judge Desai says. Butler says one shouldn't move bedtime more than an hour or two. Increases risk.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Antidepressant medication now being fielded as a precipitant. Botha trying hard to say his client had an epileptic fit on Jan 27. So I guess the operative defense psychology is: How could he murder his family while having an epileptic fit? Or why he wasn't attacked.

Galloway sort of lounges on her shoulders as Desai reviews sleep deprivation as a torture method. Tells the doctor one night of no sleep isn't extreme sleep deprivation. The crime happened late at night, while Henri was voluntarily awake, not 1st thing the next morning.

Dr. Butler: I accept your criticism. Desai: Let's move on.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

Dr B: we are some way along that but far from reaching an unambiguous finding. Desai: its inconclusive? Dr B: It is not unambiguous

Desai: we accept your word as the epileptic expert but surely one night cannot be extreme sleep deprivation? That is strong language. Dr B: the way we view it is that we are extremely meticulous about moving bed time more than an hour or two

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

Dr. Butler's testimony-in-chief on Day 62, his 2nd day on the stand, now passing 1 hour mark.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

Court adjourns for tea break.

On the YouTube chat there's a person who knows HvB since the murders. Wouldn't disclose how he knows him. Says he's in hospitality.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I think Botha has entered this into the court record to explain why Henri didn't come to the aid of any of his family members, although he came to the aid of his phone at the bottom of the stairs.

https://twitter.com/HiRezLife

Hahahaha, love Nick's sense of humour

 

[JudgeJudi]

LIVE: Henri's 'brain wasn't working properly' - neurologist in #VanBreda trial

Dr Butler concludes evidence in chief. Adv Galloway to cross-examine.

Galloway: You have now diagnosed him, in 2017. Also of view he is highly likely he had a seizure in January 2015. After seizure, there is no medical evidence (like with a cut) of it? Dr Buter says short of EEG after seizure, you rely on totality of evidence.

Clinical skill then comes in, Dr Butler says. Use circumstantial evidence. When he takes history, there are 3 bits of info he needs: 2 comes from patient - what happened to lead up and how felt after regained consciousness. 1 comes from observers.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Nick van der Leek Retweeted
Aarti Narsee‏ @ajnarsee ·
During proceedings Henri #vanbreda is very attentive. He is following Butlers report closely.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

Adv Galloway begins her cross-examination of Dr Butler

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

 

[JudgeJudi]

Butler says just as for him and every other patient, he carefully has to establish when it started without leading questions to avoid recall bias.

Galloway: You have to believe the info your patient gave you?

Butler: No, you have to be very circumspect of the information you are given.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Prior to February 2016, Henri's medical history is provided by Henri [and his girlfriend]. Galloway calls it uncorroborated.

Only from Feb 2016 when gf became involved, all the history is uncorroborated, just his word for it, Galloway asks. Dr Butler says the story provided #VanBreda was while completely oblivious to condition.

Butler concedes that Henri's genetic markers for epilepsy may have expressed themselves earlier...

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

Adv G: the back dated diagnosis (2015) is the fact that you now diagnosed him with epilepsy and the history as provided by the accused and his girlfriend? Dr B: correct but I carefully engage the process of establishing the start

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]

 

[Interested Bystander]

I think Botha has entered this into the court record to explain why Henri didn't come to the aid of any of his family members, although he came to the aid of his phone at the bottom of the stairs.

https://twitter.com/HiRezLife

Hahahaha, love Nick's sense of humour

LOL

Botha also will try to get HvB's original police interview discounted as his brain was not functioning properly during the postictal stage.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Number of aspects not from accused, other bits of corroborative evidence, Dr Butler says.

Doesnt agree with Dr Du Trevou that #VanBreda lost consciousness because of a head injury. His comments based on theory. Accurate diagnosis needs careful history and examination, as per standard clinical practice, Butler says.

[url]https://twitter.com/TeamNews24[/URL]

Galloway makes a great point. Your report focuses on what happens after the seizure [and thus the crime], not on what happened before. Reminds me of the drama in Oscar Pistorius case downstairs, and crying to God etc. after Reeva's death.

[url]https://twitter.com/HiRezLife[/URL]

Galloway confirms with the witness that Henri would have been completely lucid up until the point of his seizure

Butler disagrees with previous defence witness Dr Du-Trevou about the period of loss of consciousness. Says his diagnosis was based on theory

[url]https://twitter.com/CapeTownEtc[/URL]