South Hadley,MA Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying

[jjenny]

Many times. However, not going get into some goofy contest of baiting argument with you. Bottom line, I do not see your point, but respect that you have one you believe in.

Be well.

There is such a thing as "culture shock."
The girl moves from some small place in Ireland to US, a totally new environment, new school, new people, etc. Had she grown up in the US, she might have been able to cope better-I am hardly the first one to express this sort of an idea.

 

[JBean]

Emotional topic to be sure.
Please do your best to debate without bickering, baiting and otherwise being argumentative.
Thanks.

 

[stmarysmead]

Somehow it appears that some wish to shift the blame to Phoebe. By insinuating that her move to this country, or her "coping" difficulties, or her "weakness" was the true causative factor in her suicide...slowly the Bullying becomes a sideline issue. That is terribly unfair to this child, her greiving family, and anyone who has been a persistent target of relentless harassment.

THEIR ACTIONS MATTERED.

Anytime you decide to undertake a campaign of cruelty against another person, YOU take responsibility for the outcome. If you don't know the other person's state of mind, or stresses...perhaps you should opt for non-participation. If you enjoy shoving people to the sidewalk...one time you may chose an individual with a weak heart. Guess what? That CHOICE OF YOURS just made you eligible to be charged with a felony.

Bullies are created when society tolerates them. They flourish when society creates excuses for them. They perpetuate when society BLAMES their victims in attempts to shield THEM from responsibility for their actions.

I applaud this D.A. She is sending a message that everyone of us OWN OUR CHOICES and OUR ACTIONS.

In Mass if you have sex with a 15 year old, the law says she cannot give consent. If you decide to join with a mob and make that 15 year old live a three month life of agony....till she kills herself in despair... Guess What? That statutory rape charge will be there waiting for you...along with anything else the prosecutor can find.

Maybe if those prone to bullying realize that ONCE IN AWHILE...THEY will pay, not just their targets...we will see a decrease in cruelty and an increase in common decency!

 

[jjenny]

If everyone has a choice, then what exactly do you call suicide?

 

[stmarysmead]

Let's talk about Phoebe's choices. This is a fifteen year old child who just wanted the torment to end.

She truly tried to manage this herself. Fifteen years old...but she tried.

The first choice she made was to seek counseling. We know this from Gus Sayer's interview. She sought adult help in dealing with the constant daily intrusion into her classrooms, her lunchroom, her cellphone, her Facebook site, her walk home, her family phone.

Show me how to cope, she probably asked. Show me how to make them stop.

It doesn't appear that choice of school counseling provided Phoebe with any relief.

Her second choice appears to have been asking her Mother for help. Phoebe's Mother went twice to school trying to find a solution to this horrific situation.

How much indeed do we require a fifteen year old to endure...when all her good choices have come to NOTHING?

Can you help my daughter, she probably asked? Can you talk to these kids?

No relief there either.

In the last two weeks, Phoebe may have made another choice. She was aware that school officials knew of her ordeal. How do we know this? Gus Sayer told us of a blatant intrusion into a class in session just to humiliate Phoebe with obscenities. Some form of discipline was applied to that Bully. Gus Sayer told us of a teacher overhearing threats against Phoebe from two other bullies...again forcing school officials to take notice.

So, perhaps Phoebe third choice was at last to rely on school authorities to end the misery now that they had indeed witnessed a tiny portion and acted upon it.

But how did THAT work out?

The D.A. tells us those last two weeks after school officials KNEW...were especially unbearable...far beyond, she said NORMAL problems of this kind. In fact, she tells us Phoebe';s last day was particularly horrific.

Yet we know, Phoebe made one last good choice , one last call for help: she was seen, sobbing, entering the Nurse's office on the day she died.

Did she leave there finally despairing that no good choice of hers, after ALL her good choices, could or would ever end her ordeal?

Did she then walk outside weeping... to find a car of harassers screaming at her and feel that soda can hit her head, spill down her clothes?

If so, after all those good choices, maybe it's not so hard to understand why her last choice seemed like HER ONLY CHOICE LEFT...to her.

 

[cuppy199]

If everyone has a choice, then what exactly do you call suicide?

Suicide has an ethical dimension. Victims are driven by pain not choice.Choice implies that a suicidal person can reasonably look at alternatives and select among them. If they could rationally choose, it would not be suicide. Suicide happens when all other alternatives are exhausted when no other choices are seen.

 

[jjenny]

Suicide has an ethical dimension. Victims are driven by pain not choice.Choice implies that a suicidal person can reasonably look at alternatives and select among them. If they could rationally choose, it would not be suicide. Suicide happens when all other alternatives are exhausted when no other choices are seen.

So what would be the solution? Punish everyone who caused pain to the individual? It appears to me that people get upset more at suicide than a murder and the idea is to punish everyone in sight.

 

[stmarysmead]

The District Attorney made it clear that there was a pattern of abuse here far beyond anything commonplace. This is why these bullies face felony charges.

Personally, I do not believe this District Attorney , in a high profile case, would risk her own career and reputation, if these Bullies were only minimally involved as CAUSATIVE factors in this child's death.

Do we push a friend overboard and say his drowning is his own fault because he could not swim?

Do we leave an child in a wilderness and say his death by exposure was his own stupidity because he walked the wrong way?

I believe Phoebe made many good choices seeking help. I believe these Bullies made many horrendous choices to put her emotionally in harm's way.

They are now being held accountable. That is just and fitting, legally and morally. Perhaps if others did not always cocoon them with excuses and coddle them by blaming their victims LONG BEFORE THIS, Phoebe would be alive and they would be planning their collegiate careers.

 

[LogicalMinds]

Ironically most of Phoebe's bullies have Irish last names themselves....
as someone whose grandparents came from Ireland and had "brogues"
I can tell an Irish last name (the one gal seems to have a Hispanic name)

Massachusetts is well known for it's highly Irish population.

In today's economy and immigration laws/status, there are not that many people emigrating from Ireland..mostly from other parts of the world
south america, mexico, islands, eastern europe

Ireland had a true economic miracle in the past few decades and even with the current worldwide recession Ireland is not a bad place to be....great health care, higher education free to those who qualify, great schools, much much lower crime rate than the us...no pollution....healthy NON genetic altered foods etc

So I think it is a mistake to equate Irish people who might move here today with the Irish diaspora of 100, 150 years ago. Plus...most of the kids were Irish American themselves (or at least on their dad's side..the names are Irish)

 

[stmarysmead]

Another example.

Let's say in a certain family, there is a precious heirloom, a family ring. Worn during her life by the Grandmother, passed to the Mother, and in turn gifted it to the teenage daughter.

Now suppose the teenage daughter has a habit of banging the ring on any surface she can find...on the granite countertop in the morning, on the steel of the schoolbus as she rides to school, on the wooden desktop all day long, on the tile floor as she studies stretched out at home. Bang! Bang! Bang! Over and over and over and over! Day after day!

After three months the stones fall out. The heirloom ring is destroyed.

I suppose some might say the daughter bears no responsibility. Some might opine the ring was poorly made.

I guess I'd see it differently.

 

[LogicalMinds]

In speaking of the teachers and principal etc...I don't know if criminal charges are possible, probably not

however.....I would hope some would be demoted, disciplined...in the worst cases, fire them, take away their teaching license

There is evidence that some of this abuse was done in front of teachers...so why are they still entrusted with the job of teaching???

 

[LogicalMinds]

In speaking of the teachers and principal etc...I don't know if criminal charges are possible, probably not

however.....I would hope some would be demoted, disciplined...in the worst cases, fire them, take away their teaching license

There is evidence that some of this abuse was done in front of teachers...so why are they still entrusted with the job of teaching???

 

[jjenny]

The District Attorney made it clear that there was a pattern of abuse here far beyond anything commonplace. This is why these bullies face felony charges.

Personally, I do not believe this District Attorney , in a high profile case, would risk her own career and reputation, if these Bullies were only minimally involved as CAUSATIVE factors in this child's death.

Do we push a friend overboard and say his drowning is his own fault because he could not swim?

Do we leave an child in a wilderness and say his death by exposure was his own stupidity because he walked the wrong way?

I believe Phoebe made many good choices seeking help. I believe these Bullies made many horrendous choices to put her emotionally in harm's way.

They are now being held accountable. That is just and fitting, legally and morally. Perhaps if others did not always cocoon them with excuses and coddle them by blaming their victims LONG BEFORE THIS, Phoebe would be alive and they would be planning their collegiate careers.

If the girl were alive, would DA be bringing the same charges? One would think it would be easier to prosecute because the girl could testify. As far as I know no one ever contacted police while the girl was alive. Why?

 

[stmarysmead]

If the girl were alive, would DA be bringing the same charges? One would think it would be easier to prosecute because the girl could testify. As far as I know no one ever contacted police while the girl was alive. Why?

Can we expect a fifteen year old to contact the police? It appears Phoebe made several logical attempts to deal with this daily persecution within the parameters she saw available to her.

As for Phoebe's Mother, I'd like to know what advice she was given by the school district when she visited those two times. Was she fearing ...since there were so many bullies involved...that contacting police would make Phoebe's situation worse? Or was she advised to let the situation resolve itself.

Did the school officials put the onus on Phoebe..."Tell your daughter to toughen up and take it!"

My point is this: these bullies are charged because a death was the end result of their actions. Tonight, unfortunately, many people may drive home drunk from family festivities and reach home without an incident. But for those whose drunkenness cause a wreck, there will be serious charges and the full weight of consequences and the Law will come up[on them.

By your standard...since some drunks make it home every night harming no one...drunks whose actions cause death should pay no legal penalty. Go scot free.Drunken driving that kills should have no penalty...because a certain percentage of drunks kill no one.

A certain percentage of tormentors can assail their victim relentlessly as well. Day after day, month after month, schoolroom, hallways, sidewalks, cell phone, social media. email , posted pictures, cafeteria AS PHOEBE WAS...stalk her EVERYWHERE constantly and still she survives.

This time there was a death. That means they face the consequences. Like that unlucky drunk driver, they should be aware their behavior sometimes has consequences that might alter THEIR lives.

So should drunks who cause a death face no consequences, because some drunks make it home without incident tonight?

 

[OrdinaryLife]

I was stalked/harassed via the internet/phone. Someone got into my account and sent nasty, ugly stuff. At first, I thought I was simply hacked by some dork. Sadly, it picked up in volume over just several months. I went to LE concerned (that's how bad it got) about this abuse. They could do nothing. If I could provide physical evidence and proof with a name behind it, they could help. Otherwise it was my word against my tormentor. I am an adult and I did what I legally could do. Can you possibly imagine being a teen, sharing with your parents, they talk to those that they can, and are ignored???

I think many cannot understand what abuse is all about and it's so very easy to blame a victim. Unless you have experienced abuse or have not even simply educate yourself and it's insidious results/effects, you cannot comprehend what it does to anyone. Until you actually attempt to understand, be careful regarding direction of the victim and blame. Ignorance is why all this still exists.

imvho

 

[stmarysmead]

I have absolutely no idea what any of this has to do with drunk driving.
Nobody is saying drunk driving shouldn't be punished whether they hit someone or not.
And I certainly had to deal with bullying myself. I remember a teenage girl who would wait for me outside the grocery store so she could to beat me up, I believe it was because she thought I looked at her funny.
What does that have to do with anything?

In formal debate...it's what one might call an analogy.

If your logic is that no bullies should be prosecuted because some bullies are able to torment their victims without a resulting death....then a similar scenario would apply to drunk drivers. Not every drunk driver kills. We prosecute those however who do. But you would argue we should prosecute NONE...because that is your standard for bullies.

If a driver swerves off the road to escape a drunk driver and dies, that drunk driver will face charges.

If the target of relentless bullying chooses death to escape relentless bullies, those bullies will face charges too.

It's a logical comparison: an analogy.

Actions result in death....charges follow.

But in one instance, you argue NO CHARGES should apply.

In a formal debate you would be asked to explain your difference in logic. Not emotion...logic.

Because if you are saying the Bullies should not be charged...you are essentially saying the same in the drunk driving "ANALOGY"

In formal debate, logic matters. Analogies help to reveal if an argument is logical or not. I am presenting an analogy.

Your argument seems to be these bullies should not be charged unless EVERY bully is charged. Would you then say that NO drunk driver should ever be charged, because ALL drunk drivers are not charged?

 

[jjenny]

I fail to see logic in your analogies. I am not suggesting drunk drivers should not be charged. I also fail to see logic in claiming individual has a choice in anything that individual does, then turn right around and say that individual has no choice when it comes to suicide.

 

[Paladine]

Even though we dont know all of what happened yet there was more then just bulling going on if the students were afraid to come forward. There is more to this story IMO or they woudn't be charging these students.Im sure being away from her home land made her a easy target. I can admit I have been bullied when I was in school but today children are for more then just being cruel they are taking bulling to a whole new level. To say these kids and adults shouldn't be punished is silly IMO. This needs to be nipped in the butt now far to many kids are killing themselves and to many of them are beating and killing each other. Enough is enough its time to teach them that with this behavior there are consequence.

respectfully bolded by me...

I agree, cuppy. I have my suspicions, too...that's why I find it hard to debate the charges. I don't know the facts. I usually trust D.A.'s, when they make an indictment.

I read somewhere on a blog, in a comment, that this case went to a grand jury. Does anyone know if it did? That would give me more confidence in the charges. My knowledge of the american justice system is in it's infancy...

 

[stmarysmead]

I fail to see logic in your analogies. I am not suggesting drunk drivers should not be charged. I also fail to see logic in claiming individual has a choice in anything that individual does, then turn right around and say that individual has no choice when it comes to suicide.

You and I need not resolve our debate. Others will read your viewpoints and mine and make their own decisions. In the interim, I will continue to applaud the District Attorney for holding these sadistic bullies responsible for their actions.

God bless this child who suffered so much. You'll read no rebuke or criticism of her in my posts ever.

 

[stmarysmead]

respectfully bolded by me...

I agree, cuppy. I have my suspicions, too...that's why I find it hard to debate the charges. I don't know the facts. I usually trust D.A.'s, when they make an indictment.

I read somewhere on a blog, in a comment, that this case went to a grand jury. Does anyone know if it did? That would give me more confidence in the charges. My knowledge of the american justice system is in it's infancy...

http://www.gazettenet.com/2010/03/2...9-students-connection-phoebe-prince-bullying-

Yes, a Grand Jury heard the evidence.