South Hadley,MA Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying

[cuppy199]

So what would be the solution? Punish everyone who caused pain to the individual? It appears to me that people get upset more at suicide than a murder and the idea is to punish everyone in sight.

The solution isnt ignoring the problem. This isnt just about suicide this about teaching children right from wrong. Its also about teaching are school staff turning a blind eye is and wont be tolerated. The longer you excuse the behavior the worst its gonna get and if giving consequences saves even one childs life its worth it.

 

[stmarysmead]

http://stmarysmead.wordpress.com/

I have a bit more to say here.

 

[stmarysmead]

The solution isnt ignoring the problem. This isnt just about suicide this about teaching children right from wrong. Its also about teaching are school staff turning a blind eye is and wont be tolerated. The longer you excuse the behavior the worst its gonna get and if giving consequences saves even one childs life its worth it.

Excellent post! Thank you!

Why do we need to blame the victim...find fault with her...demean her in death as her tormentors did? This encourages similar behavior. It puts other kids at risk.

Essentially some are requiring children to be able to endure daily attacks...because THEY could...or because "nobody" should be punished. The onus is then shifted from criticizing the bullying...to criticizing any victim who cannot bear it!

 

[jjenny]

The solution isnt ignoring the problem. This isnt just about suicide this about teaching children right from wrong. Its also about teaching are school staff turning a blind eye is and wont be tolerated. The longer you excuse the behavior the worst its gonna get and if giving consequences saves even one childs life its worth it.

I am all for problem not being ignored and schools doing all they can to protect the students.
But what did the students do in this case that was so out of the extra-ordinary?
Charges such as disturbing a school assembly? Really? What is that all about?
DA talked about assaultive verbal behavior-what is that? Name calling over teenage dating relationships?
I guess I will have to wait and see on what will be presented at trial.

 

[Paladine]

It is one thing to be (for the lack of a better definition) picked on in school. It's another when it becomes physical/emotional/abuse. This is what I believe the point is. A line was crossed to the point of believing worthless. To be hated so much. Living a daily life of daily and relentless ugliness.

If this had occured in a home or at a workplace, many discussions would be so very, very different. The victim of such could have filed a complaint with LE or place of employment. Get a restraining order against the individual(s) responsible for such. But, this was a 15 year old young lady that endured this 7 days a week in a public school. Her parents contacted the school, spoke to so called "officials" and told them about this problem that became severe in the 3 months this young lady attended this school. What were their options? I promise you, they did what they could. No one in this town or school administration took the steps that should have been followed up on. Not one. Now, if this had been an adult who was part of this school system, it would have been a completely different story.

As far as actually suggesting that the fact Ms Prince was from another country and was incapable of dealing with fellow classmates here in the US...I find that insulting to the max. That was one of the most ignorant statements I have read in a very long time. Good Lord....

imvho

I moved every 6 months or so, as a child. A new school every time. From Quebec to Alberta, Canada. And many, many places in between. The culture in Quebec and Alberta are very different...Quebecker's and Albertans, let's say...disliked each other, this was in the Rene Levesque, referendum days...and I am a very sensitive person...

I wasn't bullied but I was looked at like I was alien. HOW could I be english and from Quebec?, they asked. And you're NICE they'd say...lol...and then I moved to Ontario...and found out what they thought of Albertans!

Anyways...I don't know how it was for Phoebe. All I know is my gut tells me it was horrific. We'll see.

 

[Paladine]

Another example.

Let's say in a certain family, there is a precious heirloom, a family ring. Worn during her life by the Grandmother, passed to the Mother, and in turn gifted it to the teenage daughter.

Now suppose the teenage daughter has a habit of banging the ring on any surface she can find...on the granite countertop in the morning, on the steel of the schoolbus as she rides to school, on the wooden desktop all day long, on the tile floor as she studies stretched out at home. Bang! Bang! Bang! Over and over and over and over! Day after day!

After three months the stones fall out. The heirloom ring is destroyed.

I suppose some might say the daughter bears no responsibility. Some might opine the ring was poorly made.

I guess I'd see it differently.

perfect...imo

 

[Paladine]

http://www.gazettenet.com/2010/03/2...9-students-connection-phoebe-prince-bullying-

Yes, a Grand Jury heard the evidence.

So...a grand jury heard it, a grand jury indicted. Good enough for me, for now. Thanks, Mary.

 

[jjenny]

So...a grand jury heard it, a grand jury indicted. Good enough for me, for now. Thanks, Mary.

Have you ever heard a saying that grand jury would indict a ham sandwich? Grand juries almost always indict if the DA wants them to.

 

[Paladine]

Thanks for all the info Palladine

This is such a tragedy...I am glad they are going after these bullies but what about the adults here..the teachers, the principal etc?? I think they should be prosecuted also

yw...and I think they should, too. I think it's a shame they aren't. I wonder how much the power of the teachers union has on the choice. I take some solace in knowing a civil suit will be brought. I hope they don't settle. Even having to testify and admit to their wrongs would be better than nothing, I guess.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

"Discussion is an exchange of knowledge; an argument an exchange of ignorance".

Robert Quillen

 

[stmarysmead]

I am all for problem not being ignored and schools doing all they can to protect the students.
But what did the students do in this case that was so out of the extra-ordinary?
Charges such as disturbing a school assembly? Really? What is that all about?
DA talked about assaultive verbal behavior-what is that? Name calling over teenage dating relationships?
I guess I will have to wait and see on what will be presented at trial.

Here is what we know so far. A grand jury was presented with whatever evidence the District Attorney possessed. They reviewed it. THEY handed down indictments on very serious charges to all these students. Some were charged as adults...but even the juveniles were charged in a manner that meant they could face adult punishment.

They included the statutory rape charges. If you wish to believe this is just about a little name calling, I'd ask you to consider why the entire grand jury would agree with the District Attorney to charge these Bullies and charge them to the maximum available.



Here is the law pertaining to disturbing a school assembly.

"Chapter 272: Section 40. Disturbance of schools or assemblies
Section 40. Whoever wilfully interrupts or disturbs a school or other assembly of people met for a lawful purpose shall be punished by imprisonment for not more than one month or by a fine of not more than fifty dollars; provided, however, that whoever, within one year after being twice convicted of a violation of this section, again violates the provisions of this section shall be punished by imprisonment for one month, and the sentence imposing such imprisonment shall not be suspended."

It pertains to disrupting Phoebe's education....the "assembly" of students every day lawfully for the purpose of receiving a degree. By tormenting Phoebe on a daily basis...they disrupted her lawful presence among a group ASSEMBLED for education purposes.

This is not the use of the word"assembly" as in a school program.

These charges are the most severe response from the ONLY People that heard the entirety of the evidence. Do you believe that this is simply about name-calling? Or the weakness of Phoebe?

Really?

 

[Paladine]

Have you ever heard a saying that grand jury would indict a ham sandwich? Grand juries almost always indict if the DA wants them to.

Well, jjenny...I have no problem with the indictment, at this time. We'll see...

 

[jjenny]

Here is what we know so far. A grand jury was presented with whatever evidence the District Attorney possessed. They reviewed it. THEY handed down indictments on very serious charges to all these students. Some were charged as adults...but even the juveniles were charged in a manner that meant they could face adult punishment.

They included the statutory rape charges. If you wish to believe this is just about a little name calling, I'd ask you to consider why the entire grand jury would agree with the District Attorney to charge these Bullies and charge them to the maximum available.



Here is the law pertaining to disturbing a school assembly.

"Chapter 272: Section 40. Disturbance of schools or assemblies
Section 40. Whoever wilfully interrupts or disturbs a school or other assembly of people met for a lawful purpose shall be punished by imprisonment for not more than one month or by a fine of not more than fifty dollars; provided, however, that whoever, within one year after being twice convicted of a violation of this section, again violates the provisions of this section shall be punished by imprisonment for one month, and the sentence imposing such imprisonment shall not be suspended."

It pertains to disrupting Phoebe's education....the "assembly" of students every day lawfully for the purpose of receiving a degree. By tormenting Phoebe on a daily basis...they disrupted her lawful presence among a group ASSEMBLED for education purposes.

This is not the use of the word"assembly" as in a school program.

These charges are the most severe response from the ONLY People that heard the entirety of the evidence. Do you believe that this is simply about name-calling? Or the weakness of Phoebe?

Really?

If that is a crime, then why all the unruly students that I presume are pretty much in every school (certainly there were a few in mine) aren't being charged daily?

 

[cuppy199]

Have you ever heard a saying that grand jury would indict a ham sandwich? Grand juries almost always indict if the DA wants them to.

I have heard that saying which in fact IMO is a load. I have been on several grand juries and the only cases that brought charges are the ones that had the evidence to back it up.I highly doubt a grand jury would bring charges against theses teens for saying just hurtful things. There is alot more to this story then we even know IMO.

 

[jjenny]

I have heard that saying which in fact IMO is a load. I have been on several grand juries and the only cases that brought charges are the ones that had the evidence to back it up.I highly doubt a grand jury would bring charges against theses teens for saying just hurtful things. There is alot more to this story then we even know IMO.

Isn't it only from the prosecution's point of view, since defense isn't there and doesn't present evidence.

 

[stmarysmead]

If that is a crime, then why all the unruly students that I presume are pretty much in every school (certainly there were a few in mine) aren't being charged daily?

Because not all unruly students conduct their harassment in such a virulent manner that real harm or a death results.

I understand that analogies confuse you...but surely you understand that the circumstances of an individual case determine the charges.

Are you saying that UNLESS every bully on earth is charged...then NO bully should ever face legal consequences?

Please tell us more about that.

 

[cuppy199]

Isn't it only from the prosecution's point of view, since defense isn't there and doesn't present evidence.

The grand jury has broad investigative authority due its ability to compel testimony, to order the production of documents and its power to indict.The grand jury works with the prosecution but is not controlled by that office.Authorization must be sought from the grand jury upon impanelment for the issuance of subpoenas in the grand jury’s name.I have worked on a case that we found even more evidence then the prosecution had because we had subpoened people to testify under oath. I can say I learned alot being on these grand juries and we didnt indict on all the cases that were brought before us.

 

[JBean]

Have you ever heard a saying that grand jury would indict a ham sandwich? Grand juries almost always indict if the DA wants them to.

I still have never seen a ham sandwich indicted. So either that is not true or no one has actually tested it to find out if their is truth to it. So, not sure what strength we can put into that old argument.

 

[Paladine]

You and I need not resolve our debate. Others will read your viewpoints and mine and make their own decisions. In the interim, I will continue to applaud the District Attorney for holding these sadistic bullies responsible for their actions.

God bless this child who suffered so much. You'll read no rebuke or criticism of her in my posts ever.

I'm with you on that. In mine, neither.

 

[Paladine]

The grand jury has broad investigative authority due its ability to compel testimony, to order the production of documents and its power to indict.The grand jury works with the prosecution but is not controlled by that office.Authorization must be sought from the grand jury upon impanelment for the issuance of subpoenas in the grand jury’s name.I have worked on a case that we found even more evidence then the prosecution had because we had subpoened people to testify under oath. I can say I learned alot being on these grand juries and we didnt indict on all the cases that were brought before us.

What an informative post. Thanks, cuppy... :blowkiss: