South Hadley,MA Phoebe Prince 15 kills self over bullying

[Paladine]

This whole thing upsets me so much that I can't make any specific comments without earning a timeout.:furious:

Just wanted to thank you Paladine for all of the time and work you are putting into this - the thanks button just isn't enough!

I hear you, Skewed, I know your outrage. It's a total shame, what happened to poor Phoebe. I'm at my Mom's for Easter dinner and had to check for news. She has been on my mind all day...I just hope her family knows how many people care...and we WILL stand for Phoebe.

 

[Paladine]

I don't know if the rape charges are bogus, yet. I still want to hear the indictment and evidence. We'll see.

 

[Paladine]

In this case, I've seen accusations that she was called names, a bottle was thrown at her. It all could be devastating to a teenager but as of now I have not seen anything reported to suggest some outrageous abuse.

Athough I've read much more, it was rumor, I agree we are short on definite specifics. The evidence hasn't been released, yet, though, so I'm holding off judgment. The D.A. was very clear. And very angry...something riled her up.

 

[BeenaBobba]

In this case, I've seen accusations that she was called names, a bottle was thrown at her. It all could be devastating to a teenager but as of now I have not seen anything reported to suggest some outrageous abuse.

From what I've read so far, what Phoebe went through far exceeded mere name calling. I've read quotes by students (and their parents) in the media and on Facebook, and it seems she was something of a social pariah at school. Sure, just about everyone has to deal with unkindness at some point during their academic career, but few have to deal with extreme social ostracism and bullying to the point of harassment. What separates bullying from mere name calling is the relentless nature of bullying. As I've mentioned in a previous post, I've seen it suggested by students that she was "constantly tormented," and IMO, this could have interfered with her right to an education.

If someone at your place of employment relentlessly called you by sexually suggestive names, would you view this as common name calling or as sexual harassment? Chances are that you would try to get the offending party fired. I sure would! And I don't know about you, but I would seriously consider bringing criminal charges against my offender as well. The things that Phoebe is said to have endured would have never been tolerated by adults in the workplace, so why should it be acceptable against a child in a school?

Harassment and physical assault are illegal, so even if she hadn't killed herself, the accused would have still been guilty of engaging in illegal behavior had they harassed and/or physically assaulted her. Perhaps they wouldn't have been criminally charged were she still alive, but we'll never know, will we?

 

[jjenny]

Athough I've read much more, it was rumor, I agree we are short on definite specifics. The evidence hasn't been released, yet, though, so I'm holding off judgment. The D.A. was very clear. And very angry...something riled her up.

Again, there is a lot of outrage from the public about the suicide.
Do you think anyone would be charged with anything if the girl, let's say, simply quit school rather than commit suicide? And seriously, why aren't there "driving someone to suicide laws?" I know for a fact some other countries have those kind of laws, so why not US?

 

[BeenaBobba]

Athough I've read much more, it was rumor, I agree we are short on definite specifics. The evidence hasn't been released, yet, though, so I'm holding off judgment. The D.A. was very clear. And very angry...something riled her up.

Very true. We know very little about the specifics, so it's hard to say for sure. My opinion at this point is that bullying did seem to have taken place, but perhaps I'll feel differently after all the evidence is released. To be honest, I doubt I will, but I'm open to the possibility nonetheless.

 

[BeenaBobba]

I personally think the statutory rape charges are bogus and are needlessly complicating the case. Whether they should have had sex or not, if she did so willingly, they are grasping at straws here. It's making for a 'get them at all costs' atmosphere which I think is inappropriate. This case needs to be looked at very carefully and the right decisions need to be made.

I agree.

 

[jjenny]

From what I've read so far, what Phoebe went through far exceeded mere name calling. I've read quotes by students (and their parents) in the media and on Facebook, and it seems she was something of a social pariah at school. Sure, just about everyone has to deal with unkindness at some point during their academic career, but few have to deal with extreme social ostracism and bullying to the point of harassment. What separates bullying from mere name calling is the relentless nature of bullying. As I've mentioned in a previous post, I've seen it suggested by students that she was "constantly tormented," and IMO, this could have interfered with her right to an education.

If someone at your place of employment relentlessly called you by sexually suggestive names, would you view this as common name calling or as sexual harassment? Chances are that you would try to get the offending party fired. I sure would! And I don't know about you, but I would seriously consider bringing criminal charges against my offender as well. The things that Phoebe is said to have endured would have never been tolerated by adults in the workplace, so why should it be acceptable against a child in a school?

Harassment and physical assault are illegal, so even if she hadn't killed herself, the accused would have still been guilty of engaging in illegal behavior had they harassed and/or physically assaulted her. Perhaps they wouldn't have been criminally charged were she still alive, but we'll never know, will we?

Let's say an adult calls police and complains about somebody at working calling that adult names. What do you think the response would be? An adult in that situation obviously could complain, and it could get the offender fired, reprimanded, etc. And of course that kind of behavior (name calling) shouldn't be acceptable in workplace or in school, but I would bet in most cases there would not be criminal charges for name calling.

 

[BeenaBobba]

I think she's guilty, and I want justice to be served.

Correction: I should have said, "If she is guilty, I'd want justice to be served." Technically, she hasn't been convicted of anything yet, so I probably shouldn't jump the gun, especially since few details are known about who did what to her and when. One thing I feel fairly certain of at this point, however, is that Phoebe seemed to have been relentlessly bullied; I just don't know the extent to which each of the accused is culpable.

 

[cuppy199]

Even though we dont know all of what happened yet there was more then just bulling going on if the students were afraid to come forward. There is more to this story IMO or they woudn't be charging these students.Im sure being away from her home land made her a easy target. I can admit I have been bullied when I was in school but today children are for more then just being cruel they are taking bulling to a whole new level. To say these kids and adults shouldn't be punished is silly IMO. This needs to be nipped in the butt now far to many kids are killing themselves and to many of them are beating and killing each other. Enough is enough its time to teach them that with this behavior there are consequence.

 

[BeenaBobba]

And of course that kind of behavior (name calling) shouldn't be acceptable in workplace or in school, but I would bet in most cases there would not be criminal charges for name calling.

Like I've said in a previous post, I think it would be the relentless nature of the name calling that would constitute criminal harassment. In a lot of cases, the offending party would be dealt with before things escalated to that level, so criminal charges wouldn't always be warranted or needed. If someone were to harass me relentlessly to the point where it interfered with my daily life, then I would certainly consider filing criminal charges.

In Phoebe's case, however, it seems that the offending parties were NOT removed from school before the bullying became relentless in nature and therefore amounted to harassment. Time will tell if this is true, but the D.A. certainly seems to think that this was the case, and IMO, that's got to count for something.

Also, does anyone have the legal definition of harassment and stalking? I've been trying to find it.

 

[raeann]

In case of suicide, public is outraged, so I think quite possibly the charges are being brought because she killed herself, and wouldn't have been brought otherwise.
Even with statutory rape I would guess that most 16 year old with 15 year old girlfriends would not be charged, or their parents and other adults would be screaming "bloody murder" leading to change in laws to include "Romeo and Juliet" provisions for small age differences. I guess we will have to wait and see.

FWIW....someone posted that at the time SM was 18 and Phoebe was just 14, I do not have the birth dates memorized, but I am sure others have these at hand. Also, NO ONE here knows that the evidence police have does not point to there being NON-Consensual attacks on this girl. LE has that evidence. They also have security tapes that supposedly show the physical assaults of punching, tripping, and slamming of her head into lockers. These charges were not brought because of name calling! They were brought due to threats of violence that were sent by text and e-mail. THAT is prosecutable even if no one dies as a result.

jmoo

 

[jjenny]

FWIW....someone posted that at the time SM was 18 and Phoebe was just 14, I do not have the birth dates memorized, but I am sure others have these at hand. Also, NO ONE here knows that the evidence police have does not point to there being NON-Consensual attacks on this girl. LE has that evidence. They also have security tapes that supposedly show the physical assaults of punching, tripping, and slamming of her head into lockers. These charges were not brought because of name calling! They were brought due to threats of violence that were sent by text and e-mail. THAT is prosecutable even if no one dies as a result.

jmoo

I don't know who posted that, but SM is listed as being 17 now (in the charges brought by the DA), so I fail to see how it would be possible for him to be 18 when Phoebe was 14. And if non-consensual sexual attacks were alleged, then why would the charges be with statutory rape? As for claims of tapes of physical abuse, etc, I've seen nothing reported to that effect. I've listened to the DA's conference, and she mentioned nothing about that sort of evidence, so I seriously doubt these allegations. I think it defies logic that DA would bring charges based on bottle throwing but nothing would be mentioned regarding tapes such as you claim.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

It is one thing to be (for the lack of a better definition) picked on in school. It's another when it becomes physical/emotional/abuse. This is what I believe the point is. A line was crossed to the point of believing worthless. To be hated so much. Living a daily life of daily and relentless ugliness.

If this had occured in a home or at a workplace, many discussions would be so very, very different. The victim of such could have filed a complaint with LE or place of employment. Get a restraining order against the individual(s) responsible for such. But, this was a 15 year old young lady that endured this 7 days a week in a public school. Her parents contacted the school, spoke to so called "officials" and told them about this problem that became severe in the 3 months this young lady attended this school. What were their options? I promise you, they did what they could. No one in this town or school administration took the steps that should have been followed up on. Not one. Now, if this had been an adult who was part of this school system, it would have been a completely different story.

As far as actually suggesting that the fact Ms Prince was from another country and was incapable of dealing with fellow classmates here in the US...I find that insulting to the max. That was one of the most ignorant statements I have read in a very long time. Good Lord....

imvho

 

[jjenny]

It is one thing to be (for the lack of a better definition) picked on in school. It's another when it becomes physical/emotional/abuse. This is what I believe the point is. A line was crossed to the point of believing worthless. To be hated so much. Living a daily life of daily and relentless ugliness.

If this had occured in a home or at a workplace, many discussions would be so very, very different. The victim of such could have filed a complaint with LE or place of employment. Get a restraining order against the individual(s) responsible for such. But, this was a 15 year old young lady that endured this 7 days a week in a public school. Her parents contacted the school, spoke to so called "officials" and told them about this problem that became severe in the 3 months this young lady attended this school. What were their options? I promise you, they did what they could. No one in this town or school administration took the steps that should have been followed up on. Not one. Now, if this had been an adult who was part of this school system, it would have been a completely different story.

As far as actually suggesting that the fact Ms Prince was from another country and was incapable of dealing with fellow classmates here in the US...I find that insulting to the max. That was one of the most ignorant statements I have read in a very long time. Good Lord....

imvho

Seriously? You don't think moving to a different country might make it more difficult for a teenager to cope? Somehow I am guessing you have never been outside of where you live. A girl moves from (as I understand it) some tiny village in Ireland into US, into public school, and you don't think that could lead to difficulties in coping? Just an accent alone would make her different from most of her classmates, and do you think it's so easy to deal with?

 

[stmarysmead]

Phoebe died a death by a thousand cuts. Some would like to say that a cut here or a cut there is not in itself fatal and that is true. But the D.A. tells us this went far beyond normal: it was relentless, constant, merciless. That makes for an entirely different scenario.

As far as the statutory rape charges, apparently, by law, the two male Bullies "qualified." Now it is up to a jury. If they face, in the months ahead, just a sampling of the terror Phoebe faced ALONE, as she approached the school each day...perhaps that will be punishment enough.

Or perhaps not.

I've posted my thoughts at some length here.

http://stmarysmead.wordpress.com/

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Seriously? You don't think moving to a different country might make it more difficult for a teenager to cope? Somehow I am guessing you have never been outside US. First of all, just moving by itself could cause a lot of emotional issues even if everything else were going well. How pleasant do you think it is to hear people constantly asking you about your accent, etc?

You guessed it wrong. You know what the say about assuming. And, yes, I have had shared experiences with my own to know/understand what it was like for them outside the US. There was never, ever a problem regarding the accent or the "etc"....

imvho

 

[OrdinaryLife]

Seriously? You don't think moving to a different country might make it more difficult for a teenager to cope? Somehow I am guessing you have never been outside of where you live. A girl moves from (as I understand it) some tiny village in Ireland into US, into public school, and you don't think that could lead to difficulties in coping? Just an accent alone would make her different from most of her classmates, and do you think it's so easy to deal with?

Ever visited the Berkshire area of MA? It's not Boston nor is even close to being the city of Springfield. Perhaps larger that the town Ms Prince lived in Ireland with her family, but it is not this huge town on any level. Yeah, I do know that area. Actually ventured outside my own small State.

imvho

 

[jjenny]

You guessed it wrong. You know what the say about assuming. And, yes, I have had shared experiences with my own to know/understand what it was like for them outside the US. There was never, ever a problem regarding the accent or the "etc"....

imvho

No? How many times do people ask you "what country are you from?" after you say "hello" before it gets really old?

 

[OrdinaryLife]

No? How many times do people ask you "what country are you from?" after you say "hello" before it gets really old?

Many times. However, not going get into some goofy contest of baiting argument with you. Bottom line, I do not see your point, but respect that you have one you believe in.

Be well.