Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #2

[RickshawFan]

Do we know if Dan actually spoke to her on the 22nd or did he just get that photo?

Do we know if there was actually a message with the photo?

Is the last conversation he speaks of “on the summit” actually the day before? That’s the conversation where he says they were missing each other and she was planning in this being her last trek.

I’ve read the blog again and still am not sure.

It would totally make sense to me that she went up twice, but only if she attempted the loop via the Refuge, changed her mind, went back up to the Port, hit the Pic, and planned to head back to town.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

It would totally make sense to me that she went up twice, but only if she attempted the loop via the Refuge, changed her mind, went back up to the Port, hit the Pic, and planned to head back to town.

I sort of imagined that the first climb was a recce, see what’s up there, get an idea of the conditions, the loop etc, visually plot out some landmarks or stopping points. Back down for the night, good food and sleep then off the next day on a proper trek. Doesn’t really explain her lateness on day 2 though, unless her intention was always to take it easy on that first leg, get lots of photos of lakes and valleys, do a bit of yoga etc.

 

[bazthehandyman]

Indeed, and her nature in trusting strangers makes her extremely vulnerable IMO, so if she did change her plan and head to a road, well who knows who she could have hitched a ride with....

Exactly my thoughts Hatty....I can't quite get my head around the fact that this hiker bloke offered her a lift....why would you do that .Also why would you ask someone for fruit...many things just don't add up.

 

[RedHaus]

I sort of imagined that the first climb was a recce, see what’s up there, get an idea of the conditions, the loop etc, visually plot out some landmarks or stopping points. Back down for the night, good food and sleep then off the next day on a proper trek. Doesn’t really explain her lateness on day 2 though, unless her intention was always to take it easy on that first leg, get lots of photos of lakes and valleys, do a bit of yoga etc.

CMC, the data we have could fit your scenario. She was given a 5 mile ride on 11/21 from Ballarin so IMO, she got from her van in Banasque to the trailhead to Pic de S fairly quickly that day. That is why her summit pics appear to be from early afternoon. It is a good idea that she may have been doing a recce to plan her big trip starting 11/22. And in theory, she simply returned to her van the afternoon of 11/21 to ready for her big trip.

So then on 11/22, she started from her van in Banasque, which is about 9 miles from the trail to Pic de S, if I am not mistaken. If she left late morning, her usual schedule, that could put her on the trial to Pic de S in the 3/4:00pm range. And yes, if she summited (or not) on 11/22, she could end up at the Port de V that night (or at least attempt to), or like I think RickshawFan is suggesting, aborted and attempted a descent back to Banasque on 11/22.... or as I've postulated, spent the night at Pic de V on 11/22 and then perhaps due to concern for hypothermia from that night, etc. she aborted her trip and attempted a descent to Banasque on 11/23.

But as others have said this afternoon / evening, it does seem like we're stirring our little pot of data that's missing some key facts... so our thinking could be way off!

 

[PeggyHenry]

Do we know if Dan actually spoke to her on the 22nd or did he just get that photo?

Do we know if there was actually a message with the photo?

Is the last conversation he speaks of “on the summit” actually the day before? That’s the conversation where he says they were missing each other and she was planning in this being her last trek.

I’ve read the blog again and still am not sure.

I don't think so. Well equipped, experienced people die in the mountains too. Experience or not, we are all humans prone to stupid mistakes and sometimes it takes only one stupid mistake made in the wild to end up in a lethally dangerous situation.

Sometimes it's just enough to be in a wrong place in a wrong time, like when you get in the way of a couple of stones, that fallen off of the cliff somewhere above you. And judging by the size of the rubble piles at the mountain feet, the rocks in the area where Esther hiked are quite fragile.

Routine can also be your enemy in the wild. You can't do things on auto pilot up in the mountains, you should be always aware of what's going on around you. And yet it happens to experienced hikers pretty often.

It doesn't take much during a hike to have an accident. One ice-glazed stone on the trail, one cloud rolling down the slope, wrapping everything in a thick veil of fog, a couple of bites not eaten before you hit the trail, one moment of distraction, one ignored signal from your fatigued body.

All in all I think the possibility of an accident is here much, much greater than the possibility of a human predator walking Pyrenees in the end of November, in the middle of the lockdown.

Do we know if Dan actually spoke to her on the 22nd or did he just get that photo?

Do we know if there was actually a message with the photo?

Is the last conversation he speaks of “on the summit” actually the day before? That’s the conversation where he says they were missing each other and she was planning in this being her last trek.

I’ve read the blog again and still am not sure.

No ... we don’t know anything concrete about the WhatsApp message from Esther to Dan. Other than Dan says he received it at 4pm.

For me, the last reliable evidence of Esther was the 3 pm sighting by Vigo and girlfriend. Anything that came from her ‘phone is not necessarily actioned by Esther.

 

[bazthehandyman]

I understand that she didn't want to spend daylight time at the refuge, but limiting hiking time so that she arrived at the refuge at sunset doesn't strike me as good planning. I think the olympian who was descending when she was ascending around 3-4 PM was surprised at her late start for the very same reasons. She didn't allow time for an unexpected event.

I understand that she enjoyed the solitude and adventure of mountain hiking and had confidence that she could manage every situation, but I suspect that she encountered a natural situation that was fatal - such as going off trail, getting lost and being unprepared for changing mountain conditions and situations.

Spot on Otto.

 

[PeggyHenry]

LBT Global press release 14.12 www.lbt.global/media releases

as far as I can see it was their last press release. When I read it now it really dwells on Dan’s unhappiness at how police portray their ‘relationship wellbeing’.
They also have a page for Esther which gives contact details for anyone with information.
The lucie Blackman trust rebranded into lbtglobal and Lucie’s family no longer have anything to do with it.
I’m not really bringing anything useful here but just that it struck me how formal and almost ‘unfriendly’ the LBT posts are. Maybe that is deliberate to ensure the family of the missing person is not bombarded by well wishers and letters etc. Too stark as far as I am concerned

 

[PeggyHenry]

The following report seems to suggest she had a 'phone conversation with Dan just before 4pm, on 22nd.

[ENT] Missing Esther Dingley's secrets, by the last man to see her alive (ohioscholarships.org)
The last person to see Esther was Spanish Olympic skier Marti Vigo del Arco, who was coming down from Pico Salvaguardia with his girlfriend on November 22 at around 3pm as Esther was going up.

‘We know that she reached the peak because of the final selfie she took there and the phone conversation she had with Dan, just before 4pm.

 

[patCee]

I think we're getting a little tangled up here with the difference between something which is logical to presume, and something which is a confirmed fact.

There are so many interesting theories and suggestions on this thread, but very few actual facts.

True but what are the facts? There has been a detailed and knowledgeable examination of the area, with types of terrain, lengths, widths, heights, hours per km, weather conditions, quality and amounts of equipment along with the various trails, possible routes and danger points. Temperatures, food and water used and/or available. People known to have interacted with ED in last few days.

We do know that prior to the past 6 years ED and her partner were working long hours with little other life/rest, the failure of business ventures, and both becoming ill mentally and physically. This resulted in the decision, 6 years ago, to sell up, leave their demanding lives and travel around Europe, including hiking at various points. Their adventures being described liberally on social media, and some books. We understand this has been the 2nd time ED has gone off alone to hike. This time for a month up to her disappearance. We know there were searches on the Spanish and French sides for as long as the weather allowed with no clues found. We know her temporary home was a van parked in Benasque. ED had been an accomplished sports women and still practiced yoga.

Unfortunately there is little else known as facts. ED's known direct connections with others during the few days concerned were brief and were conducted electronically with DC and family. Presumably that had been a theme during the past 6 years. Although that is an assumption along with others, including how she presents and expresses herself on social media and the life style she has chosen along with her partner DC. Whilst her privacy needs to be protected, apart from one friends brief comment, and her mother there seems to be little information about her motivation and needs, who she is, in order to know her better.

My own personal view is that their lives were narrow, as travelling from one destination to another for so long excludes meaningful relationships with people/places other than between themselves. For me real life views of the mountains and other scenery is exhilarating for a time, but the sense of freedom pales and a lack of belonging kicks in. After long holidays I love the comfort of being back home. ED seems not to have experienced these feelings, never lost the need for adventure and it seems wanted to continue. Is this part of the reason we know so little about what motivates her life, her wishes along with emotional needs. If she has not had an accident there has to be more to this story, and what has motivated her. Feelings are facts, and they are what motivates us.

 

[patCee]

I believe it's difficult to discuss alternatives to ED having met with an accident. Partly due to the lack of information. Also to do so would feel like minimsing any trauma she may have suffered and we'd be left feeling so terrible even heartless. It's also difficult to do without making comments about her relationship with DC and worrying about breaking the rules.
Did the French police visit DC at home and have an intimate talk with him when searching the couples social media? If so they may have a deeper insight to the situation that underpinned Captain B's outspoken comments to the press.
I would like to ask has ED done anything like this before, or anything related to it e.g. going missing for any length of time, or cutting communication. Do we know?
Was she feeling emotionally suffocated by their rural lifestyle and needing to escape it?
We know she didn't want to stop travelling, but why?
Many other questions.

 

[The_Investigator]

True but what are the facts? There has been a detailed and knowledgeable examination of the area, with types of terrain, lengths, widths, heights, hours per km, weather conditions, quality and amounts of equipment along with the various trails, possible routes and danger points. Temperatures, food and water used and/or available. People known to have interacted with ED in last few days.

We do know that prior to the past 6 years ED and her partner were working long hours with little other life/rest, the failure of business ventures, and both becoming ill mentally and physically. This resulted in the decision, 6 years ago, to sell up, leave their demanding lives and travel around Europe, including hiking at various points. Their adventures being described liberally on social media, and some books. We understand this has been the 2nd time ED has gone off alone to hike. This time for a month up to her disappearance. We know there were searches on the Spanish and French sides for as long as the weather allowed with no clues found. We know her temporary home was a van parked in Benasque. ED had been an accomplished sports women and still practiced yoga.

Unfortunately there is little else known as facts. ED's known direct connections with others during the few days concerned were brief and were conducted electronically with DC and family. Presumably that had been a theme during the past 6 years. Although that is an assumption along with others, including how she presents and expresses herself on social media and the life style she has chosen along with her partner DC. Whilst her privacy needs to be protected, apart from one friends brief comment, and her mother there seems to be little information about her motivation and needs, who she is, in order to know her better.

My own personal view is that their lives were narrow, as travelling from one destination to another for so long excludes meaningful relationships with people/places other than between themselves. For me real life views of the mountains and other scenery is exhilarating for a time, but the sense of freedom pales and a lack of belonging kicks in. After long holidays I love the comfort of being back home. ED seems not to have experienced these feelings, never lost the need for adventure and it seems wanted to continue. Is this part of the reason we know so little about what motivates her life, her wishes along with emotional needs. If she has not had an accident there has to be more to this story, and what has motivated her. Feelings are facts, and they are what motivates us.

Very nicely done summary

 

[stmarysmead]

We have so few reliable quotes directly from police or family or the few people who actually encountered her. Media reports can be notoriously misleading, just by a simple misunderstanding, misuse of a word, or careless regurgitation from other second hand media source.

For example, Dan may indeed have had a full conversation with Esther on Nov 22 but this is how he phrases it on their FB blog on Nov 28....he says “She was last seen six days ago WHEN SHE SENT ME THIS PHOTO.” Now...that’s not conclusive evidence or even that it’s meaningful.. but it’s interesting that he did not say..”When I last spoke with her.”

On Dec 1...he states that she had a “clearly defined route for Sunday/Monday.” But that’s the route that has been subjected to a massive search and a search by Dan himself. His words seem to deny that Esther might have done anything spontaneous...yet, as continues to puzzle me...he waited over three days of no contact to raise the alarm.

I do agree with those of you who think that there is a certain amount being held back. I’ve seen photos on them in the snow in the Alps...special equipment on their boots. Is Dan searching still? In most cases here on WS, the families are relentless in keeping their loved one front and center, in hopes of someone coming forward with new information. If there’s a chance she’s been abducted, then it’s even more vital.

So the silence and the somewhat defensive posts are all the more puzzling.

 

[RickshawFan]

Actually, this picture shows the Hospital de Benasque on the Spanish side, as per the caption. But yes. It looks deceptively close.

View attachment 277940

The caption also mentions the altitude, which reminds me of the conversation about temperature in Tread 1. The historic temperature chart showed a minimum temperature of -1°C for the town of Benasque which is at an altitude of 1140m. The Refuge de Venasque is at 2239m, so over 1000m higher. I think I read somewhere that temperature decreases by 6-7°C per 1000m which would have made it even colder in that area.

Oopsie! Good correction!

 

[Cryptic]

Let me bold Cryptic's important point again:

In regards to hiking or and endeavor, one can be "Very experienced at doing things the wrong way". Having completed hikes may not always indicate that they were completed at a strong pace etc.

Thank you for the compliments regarding my post.

The "One can be very experienced at doing things the wrong way" quote came from a former Navy salvage diver when I asked him about a series of scuba diving deaths.

He then related that he does not do recreational technical diving because it is inherently dangerous and because there are a lot of people doing it who are "experienced" in the wrong way. This greatly increases the risk to himself and others.

For people thinking of training in dangerous obbie, the wrong "experience" even extends to some instructors.

He went livid when he read of an instructor who killed a student in a two- three day "having fun" diving course via repeated imitations of a military "equipment failure" type drill.

He told me that the military uses the drill. But they do it with the right experience: Students are incrementally brought up to it in ability and confidence. Students lacking the fitness and mental discipline have been "weeded" out. Drills are overseen by multiple layers of instructors etc.

The civilian instructor, however, despite his diving time was "Very experienced in the wrong way".

 

[wary]

While I would have expected the use of the present tense here (to imply ED is still alive), I wouldn’t read too much into the use of the past tense beyond the fact that they may be acknowledging that ED has died.

As for the lack of updates from LE on both sides of the border, this could be due to there being nothing further to add to what has already been released. The search has been stopped for the winter so nothing will happen for several months, and until then there more than likely won’t be any updates beyond something from the family or any new witnesses coming forward.

I tend to think that use of present tense vs past tense can mean a number of things. Past tense could indicate knowledge of the situation, but could also indicate a pessimistic nature, or a realistic attitude toward life. Present tense could indicate an optimistic nature, or a person who’s in denial, or, if someone has just disappeared, it could be realistic, too.

And past tense could also simply relate to the situation: “someone always DID this,” because since she’s missing, she obviously isn’t doing it now.

 

[otto]

If you can show evidence, other than media statements quoting someone else I would agree. As an avid poster with two Twitter accounts and two Facebook accounts and two Instagram accounts, plus a blog all of which were updated almost daily (but not on this day) - I may appear untrusting, and cynical, but yes I don’t think we have evidence she was at the peak at 4.00. And if we disregard all my opinion and needing concrete evidence, then we are left with the possibility that you upload something to WhatsApp- but the time shows as arrival, and doesn’t tell the tale of when it was sent. When it was first reported that her and Dan spoke via WhatsApp I accepted it, but the current news reports are erring on the side of caution and reporting a photo was sent. You can draw your own conclusions, personally I am still unsure what happened and when on that final day of communication.

BBM

I'm curious why there is doubt about evidence that she was at the Pic de Sauvegarde on Nov 22 at 4PM. That has been reported extensively since the disappearance. The information is based on her claims that she was there, and supported with photo evidence.

"The last he or anyone heard from Esther was just before 4pm on Sunday, November 22, when she sent him a selfie taken at the top of the Pic de Sauvegarde on the Spanish side of the border. The image shows her beaming at the camera from a snow-capped peak with a sweeping mountain vista behind her.

Conditions were clear and there was still at least an hour-and-a-half of daylight left — plenty of time for the highly experienced hiker and trail runner to reach the mountain-side cabin where she was planning to spend the night. There is no evidence, however, that she ever got there."​

Pictured: Missing British hiker Esther Dingley's Fiat camper van | Daily Mail Online

"The mystery about Ms Dingley's last days on the Pic de Sauvegarde, where she was last seen and sent a photo to her partner on November 22"​

'We are living a nightmare': family of missing British hiker Esther Dingley fears she was kidnapped

"An hour after the meeting, just before 4 p.m., Dingley reached the peak of 8,983 feet where she sent a selfie to her partner Dan Colegate.

The photo shows her at the top, with a solar panel and a telecommunications mast on the top reflected in her sunglasses."
​

https://www.fr24news.com/a/2020/12/...ntinued-to-summit-after-asking-for-fruit.html

 

[Ruthbullock]

BBM

I'm curious why there is doubt about evidence that she was at the Pic de Sauvegarde on Nov 22 at 4PM. That has been reported extensively since the disappearance. The information is based on her claims that she was there, and supported with photo evidence.

"The last he or anyone heard from Esther was just before 4pm on Sunday, November 22, when she sent him a selfie taken at the top of the Pic de Sauvegarde on the Spanish side of the border. The image shows her beaming at the camera from a snow-capped peak with a sweeping mountain vista behind her.

Conditions were clear and there was still at least an hour-and-a-half of daylight left — plenty of time for the highly experienced hiker and trail runner to reach the mountain-side cabin where she was planning to spend the night. There is no evidence, however, that she ever got there."​

Pictured: Missing British hiker Esther Dingley's Fiat camper van | Daily Mail Online

"The mystery about Ms Dingley's last days on the Pic de Sauvegarde, where she was last seen and sent a photo to her partner on November 22"​

'We are living a nightmare': family of missing British hiker Esther Dingley fears she was kidnapped

"An hour after the meeting, just before 4 p.m., Dingley reached the peak of 8,983 feet where she sent a selfie to her partner Dan Colegate.

The photo shows her at the top, with a solar panel and a telecommunications mast on the top reflected in her sunglasses."
​

Missing hiker Esther Dingley ‘last seen by Olympic skier who says Brit continued to summit after asking for fruit’ | FR24 News English

I have explained why in the post you have quoted- to elaborate a little more- the photo could have been taken at 3.30, and taken a while to upload and send ( whatsapp processes for a few seconds/sometimes minutes/ sometimes a frustrating amount of time before it flies virtually) (5 or 10 or 30 more minutes of hiking time in this case could be quite significant). If every paper sang from the same hymn sheet then I would be far more inclined to trust that she was 100% at the top at 4.00- but we have been unable to confirm that - most reports are just before or around 4.00. Others have also explained about the wording and it is not consistently reported that he spoke to ED at 4.00, even by Dan himself. Whilst for many they are happy to approximate with timings etc and what happened- the only aspect we know for fact (and hasn’t been misreported) is what DC himself said and that is he last communicated with ED at 4.00 and he received a photo of her at the summit- is WhatsApp a reliable source of timings? Not really. Is receiving a photograph from a phone proof that the owner of the phone sent it- again not really. I enjoy looking at all the possibilities and sometimes looking at the cracks in stated facts is part of that, particularly when the news reports don’t all report that same thing as a fact.

 

[otto]

I have explained why in the post you have quoted- to elaborate a little more- the photo could have been taken at 3.30, and taken a while to upload and send ( whatsapp processes for a few seconds/sometimes minutes/ sometimes a frustrating amount of time before it flies virtually) (5 or 10 or 30 more minutes of hiking time in this case could be quite significant). If every paper sang from the same hymn sheet then I would be far more inclined to trust that she was 100% at the top at 4.00- but we have been unable to confirm that - most reports are just before or around 4.00. Others have also explained about the wording and it is not consistently reported that he spoke to ED at 4.00, even by Dan himself. Whilst for many they are happy to approximate with timings etc and what happened- the only aspect we know for fact (and hasn’t been misreported) is what DC himself said and that is he last communicated with ED at 4.00 and he received a photo of her at the summit- is WhatsApp a reliable source of timings? Not really. Is receiving a photograph from a phone proof that the owner of the phone sent it- again not really. I enjoy looking at all the possibilities and sometimes looking at the cracks in stated facts is part of that, particularly when the news reports don’t all report that same thing as a fact.

Of course, that's why we look at all the other facts that are available. We know that she in was in France, an hour from the summit, when she spoke to a witness at 3PM. She was ascending the mountain.

There is a wifi mast at the summit. An hour later at 4PM she sent a selfie from the summit. It was her plan to hike the summit and then pass through the Port de Venasque (30 minutes from summit) to the Refuge de Venasque (an hour from the summit). There is no wifi at the refuge.

Other facts support the point that Esther was at the summit at 4PM using the summit wifi signal to send the selfie.

 

[PeggyHenry]

We have so few reliable quotes directly from police or family or the few people who actually encountered her. Media reports can be notoriously misleading, just by a simple misunderstanding, misuse of a word, or careless regurgitation from other second hand media source.

For example, Dan may indeed have had a full conversation with Esther on Nov 22 but this is how he phrases it on their FB blog on Nov 28....he says “She was last seen six days ago WHEN SHE SENT ME THIS PHOTO.” Now...that’s not conclusive evidence or even that it’s meaningful.. but it’s interesting that he did not say..”When I last spoke with her.”

On Dec 1...he states that she had a “clearly defined route for Sunday/Monday.” But that’s the route that has been subjected to a massive search and a search by Dan himself. His words seem to deny that Esther might have done anything spontaneous...yet, as continues to puzzle me...he waited over three days of no contact to raise the alarm.

I do agree with those of you who think that there is a certain amount being held back. I’ve seen photos on them in the snow in the Alps...special equipment on their boots. Is Dan searching still? In most cases here on WS, the families are relentless in keeping their loved one front and center, in hopes of someone coming forward with new information. If there’s a chance she’s been abducted, then it’s even more vital.

So the silence and the somewhat defensive posts are all the more puzzling.

I think if Dan had had an actual conversation with Esther on 22nd November at 4pm (from summit), he would have said that on the FB post. Something quite straightforward to reflect a conversation e.g. 'I last spoke to her on ...'
It's just a natural thing to do. Although we cannot say for sure whether he spoke to her or just received a Whatsapp message / photo then will the police be able to ascertain this? Whether a conversation took place or just a Whatsapp message? Hopefully the data available to the Police will confirm. For us, it remains uncertain!
The continued silence leads me to think that their investigation is very much in progress.

 

[Officer Dibble]

Yes, I agree. From the Susan McLean thread - Susan was so close just but tucked away in an area off the paths. It could well be that something happened to Esther in an area where there there was seemingly a very low risk, particularly if another person was involved, or if she was ill, injured or disorientated. Such an area may be accessible at the current time.

Yes I agree, is the Susan McLean thread the one where the woman left the hotel (or accommodation) and it was her friend who flew over and eventually found her (some while later) and she was literally just behind an area that had been searched all along. Is that the same person?