Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

[Grouse]

<snipped for focus>

If ED had decided to end her life, she could have gone anywhere. She could have taken any mountain route far away from the one she stated she was going on, to avoid being found. She had at least three days start before SAR were called.

If that scenario was the case then I could imagine her carrying on right past the Refuge de Vanesque (thus not leaving a trace) , unconcerned in that frame of mind about encroaching darkness, and making for the wooded area further north.

 

[stmarysmead]

Interfering to save an animal...I definitely can see this scenario as a possibility. Also, if she was accidentally killed when interfering, perhaps the hunters would feel she was responsible for her own death, and just dispose of her remains in one of the lakes, and save themselves any follow up difficulties with the law.

Then there would be no trace of her. And no witnesses.

 

[j_in_c]

Interfering to save an animal...I definitely can see this scenario as a possibility. Also, if she was accidentally killed when interfering, perhaps the hunters would feel she was responsible for her own death, and just dispose of her remains in one of the lakes, and save themselves any follow up difficulties with the law.

Then there would be no trace of her. And no witnesses.

I am in the US and so I can't claim familiarity with hunting practices in Spain or France, but hunters are active in the early morning hours and in areas away from heavily trafficked trails (as animals tend to avoid people).
I also think it would be challenging to hide her and all her gear.

It isn't odd to me that she had her phone in airplane mode despite possibly having coverage. And I think it is an impossible task to determine based on what little we know if self-harm is a possibility. The sad truth is that it is always a remote possibility no matter who we are discussing.

I still think that a n accident is the most likely scenario here. A decision to push on past a planned stop, a rolled ankle, a battery failure, early darkness from a late start leading to an incorrect path, a series of small things that can add up to huge consequences.

 

[Puzzles]

And I don't agree with this conclusion. A head injury could have left Esther fully mobile, yet confused and not thinking rationally. You don't need much for such an injury, a couple of rocks falling from the slope above you, one bad step, resulting in a fall... Not necessarily even a long one...

Minor head injuries can certainly cause significant confusion. I recall when a minor event allowed me to speak and walk, but with my phone in my hand, I had no idea how to call 911.

 

[otto]

All the evidence points to ED continuing her journey to the refuge de V. a relatively short distance from where she was last confirmed to be on the Pic De S. To change route or take a route elsewhere doesn't make sense in the late afternoon going into early evening and darkness, as others have pointed out previously. Does the answer lie in the small lakes around the refuge and below the pic De s. The lakes can't be searched currently and I don't believe were searched by ROV or dived during the initial search which is incredibly difficult and time consuming, especially at altitude, therefore surely the water can't be ruled out with complete certainly.

If we look at the bare facts: that she was alive and well around 4PM, heading to the Refuge de Venasque - a hike of less than an hour, and that did not arrive at the refuge, then it is most likely that she is in the lake.

"Now, locals fear Dingley may have plunged into freezing waters, explaining why no trace of her has yet been found. A source told the Daily Mail: “These kind of accidents are sadly very common all year round.

“Over the decades, people have fallen in the still and very deep water, and drowned, or severely injured themselves.

“In the past, it was common for bodies to disappear in the winter, because of the snow and increased water depth, and then to appear in the spring.

“The possibility of someone slipping into water is high, and with nobody else to rescue them or raise the alarm, the consequences can be fatal.”
​

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/worldnews/13403493/esther-dingley-lake/

 

[stmarysmead]

Good point about the times and areas preferable to hunters. But, again, looking at those isolated deep lakes near the Refuge, they would make disposal of a body and equipment very easy.

 

[RickshawFan]

k) The idea Esther sheltered anywhere other than the Refuge de Venasque makes no sense. She had stayed in dozens of such buildings and this one was unlocked and available. She could see almost the entire route from the summit and had told people she planned to go there.”

Snipped quote from dossier.

It does indeed make sense that Esther sheltered somewhere other than the Refuge on the 22nd: she had actually done that very thing the day before, namely on the 21st. She chose somewhere else to spend the night.
There are at least 2 other details that would work against the "makes no sense" argument. 1. ED was overtly committed to "going beyond her comfort zones"; and 2. she had "bivouac'ed" the week before with no tent (she just draped it on the top of her sleeping bag.)

 

[Megnut]

If we look at the bare facts: that she was alive and well around 4PM, heading to the Refuge de Venasque - a hike of less than an hour, and that did not arrive at the refuge, then it is most likely that she is in the lake.

"Now, locals fear Dingley may have plunged into freezing waters, explaining why no trace of her has yet been found. A source told the Daily Mail: “These kind of accidents are sadly very common all year round.

“Over the decades, people have fallen in the still and very deep water, and drowned, or severely injured themselves.

“In the past, it was common for bodies to disappear in the winter, because of the snow and increased water depth, and then to appear in the spring.

“The possibility of someone slipping into water is high, and with nobody else to rescue them or raise the alarm, the consequences can be fatal.”
​

Missing hiker Esther Dingley could have fallen into frozen lake meaning her body may only appear in spring, locals fear

Well, that's a nightmarish thought. One wrong step, plunged into water, with all one's gear strapped on. You COULD of course, let it go, but it contains everything you need FOR survival. Then add icy water and exhaustion, hypothermia, compromised judgment which are suddenly in charge, when just a moment ago, you were. Nature, as we've seen, isn't forgiving.

If this is what happened to Esther, with her, died her hopes and dreams, her fears and faults.... all things we've been scrutinizing for clues to her whereabouts....

When it's far more likely that the mountain took advantage of a slip and swallowed her whole.

Wishing peace and comfort and answers for those who loved her, whether perfectly or imperfectly, most.

JMO

 

[Grouse]

Good point about the times and areas preferable to hunters. But, again, looking at those isolated deep lakes near the Refuge, they would make disposal of a body and equipment very easy.

If we look at the bare facts: that she was alive and well around 4PM, heading to the Refuge de Venasque - a hike of less than an hour, and that did not arrive at the refuge, then it is most likely that she is in the lake.

Indeed. Those bodies of water, right in the area where she is presumed to have gone missing, were apparently never searched before they froze. Whether accidental, a voluntary act or the act of a third party, they are the obvious place to check.

 

[ZaZara]

I am in the US and so I can't claim familiarity with hunting practices in Spain or France, but hunters are active in the early morning hours and in areas away from heavily trafficked trails (as animals tend to avoid people).
I also think it would be challenging to hide her and all her gear.

It isn't odd to me that she had her phone in airplane mode despite possibly having coverage. And I think it is an impossible task to determine based on what little we know if self-harm is a possibility. The sad truth is that it is always a remote possibility no matter who we are discussing.

I still think that a n accident is the most likely scenario here. A decision to push on past a planned stop, a rolled ankle, a battery failure, early darkness from a late start leading to an incorrect path, a series of small things that can add up to huge consequences.

Here's some very detailed info about hunting in France:

Hunting and Licences to Hunt in France - France - Angloinfo

Hunting is tightly controlled in France. If you want to hunt in France you will need a valid hunting licence. This licence allows you to hunt in a given territory, for a given period. The licence must be renewed (validated) each year.

In order to have the right to hunt in France, it is necessary to have a hunting permit (permis de chasser). Hunters have to pass a theory and practical exam before being given a licence. Both of these exams are organised by the National Hunting and Wildlife Agency, ONCFS (Office National de Chasse et de la Faune Sauvage) and are held all year round.

To prepare for this exam, hunters have to undergo an obligatory training course. Candidates cannot take the practical exam until they have passed the theory exam and must be at least 15 years old on the day of the theory exam. If the candidate fails one of the exams then they must begin the process again and fill in a new application form.

The theory exam includes 21 questions based on the following themes:

• knowledge of wildlife (recognising game and protected species, animal biology and their way of life)
• knowledge of hunting (different hunting techniques, knowledge and use of hunting dogs and hunting vocabulary)
• knowledge of the rules and laws concerning hunting policies and nature protection
• knowledge of arms and munitions, how to use them and security rules

To pass the exam, you will need to have 16 correct answers out of 21 and must have replied correctly to the two questions concerning security. The certificate is issued by the inspectors of the ONCFS. The practical exam can only be taken once you have succeeded the theory exam. Following the theory exam you have 18 months to pass the practical exam. The exam has three parts:

• simulation of hunting, shooting with blanks
• target shooting test, with black targets representing species that can be hunted and red targets representing protected species or animals that can’t be hunted.
• shooting a moving target

Any dangerous behaviour will lead to automatic failure of the exam. To pass the practical exam you must have 16 points correct out of 21.

Hunters have to have insurance (Assurance obligatoire de responsabilité civile) in France and you must carry proof of insurance (attestation d’insurance) when hunting. To have your hunting permit validated you must show proof of insurance

BBM

Hope this puts matters a little into perspective.

 

[stmarysmead]

I looked up some information about hunting in the Pyrenees. Esther happened to be trekking at the height of the chamois season, during rutting season. Advice to the hunters is to be hidden...so, if we consider this possibility, Esther might not have even seen them...maybe just the animals.

And the last couple hours of the day is prime time.

1. Use any available cover as the chamois’ best defense is its excellent eye sight. They are known for being able to spot movements as far as 800+ m / 2600 ft.
2. Time of the day: the first and last couple of hours of the day is the best moment.
3. Spend a lot of time glassing as they are quick, small and unpredictable.
4. Get higher. The chamois has the tendency to be looking downhill for danger, use this in your advantage and try to get above them.
5. Just as in any other hunting practice, try to hunt into the wind.
6. Be as fit as possible. This is a pretty rugged terrain.

The chamois hunt in Spain: best tips for your hunt - Caza Hispánica


The chamois is a high mountain species. We can find them at an altitude of around 2.000m (6,000ft) in summer and 1.000m (3,000ft) in winter and crags, rocky lands, cliffs and screes represent no challenge for the chamois. They mostly feed on the high mountain pastures, leaves, berries, green sprouts, flowers, lichens and moss, depending on the time of the year.

The rut season begins at the end of fall, when the male dilates the parietal glands and emanates a strong goat-like scent. Fights between males are not uncommon.


The chamois hunt in Spain: best tips for your hunt - Caza Hispánica

 

[Grouse]

<snipped for focus>
Hope this puts matters a little into perspective.

Thanks, it does add some perspective. However hunting accidents in France are an issue. From Hunting Accidents in France

"Tuesday 06 October 2020
The hunting season began in France last month, and within days several accidents are reported."

"In the Landes, a Dutch tourist travelling along the A63 autoroute was shot in the shoulder, believed to be from a local hunter who was participating in a wild boar hunt in the area.​

The cohabitation of hunters and walkers is regularly the subject of controversy."​

 

[RickshawFan]

i) If Esther did have an accident, it must have been instantly incapacitating, preventing her from deploying any form of shelter (which would have absolutely been visible to the search teams – Esther knows how to make herself visible in the mountains).

Quoted from dossier and snipped for focus

"Know[ing] how to make [oneself] visible in the mountains" generally involves having a bright-colored pack, outerwear, and apparel.

********
Before I forget..... one of the most important safety devices for hiking is a whistle. Please check your hiking packs. Look at the buckle on your sternum strap. Is there a built-in whistle? Great! And if you have an accident, it will be right where you need it, in front of your mouth. I may have just saved your life...

 

[Megnut]

By everyone's accounts, she was the last one atop the peak, no?

It may have been beautiful... until the one second later when it was not...

With no one there for help.

JMO

 

[Quietey]

I am in the US and so I can't claim familiarity with hunting practices in Spain or France, but hunters are active in the early morning hours and in areas away from heavily trafficked trails (as animals tend to avoid people).
I also think it would be challenging to hide her and all her gear.

It isn't odd to me that she had her phone in airplane mode despite possibly having coverage. And I think it is an impossible task to determine based on what little we know if self-harm is a possibility. The sad truth is that it is always a remote possibility no matter who we are discussing.

I still think that a n accident is the most likely scenario here. A decision to push on past a planned stop, a rolled ankle, a battery failure, early darkness from a late start leading to an incorrect path, a series of small things that can add up to huge consequences.

The possibility of an an encounter with hunters has to be considered, along with all other possibilities. This page (Autumn in France…. our top 10 tips to stay safe during hunting season |) states:

"Take extra when cycling at dawn and dusk (BBM)… this is when visibility is low and for many hunters a great time to be out as many species make the most of this normally quiet time."​

Also - we can't pinpoint exactly where Esther was or when, but if she was near a wooded and there was any kind of accident or incident then it would be a lot harder to find her. Helicopter searches and telescopes would be useless. There could be dense undergrowth, with plenty of scope to hide a body that only a search with dogs would stand a chance of finding. How much ground was SSR able to cover on foot during the limited number of days that they were able to search for? And how much of the search area was covered using dogs?

 

[stmarysmead]

Hunting permits in Spain seem relatively uncomplicated to secure:


Hunting in Spain: What are the rules?



Spain does not have as precise hunting laws as some countries do. They issue that all 17 communities in Spain should issue licenses and make rules about when and where you can hunt. The hunting season usually goes from early October to the first week in February. The communities offer overnight hunting trips during the hunting season.

What are the rules and regulations? If you want to come to Spain and hunt, then you need an international weapon permit. Locals receive weapon permits from their police stations. You may also talk to your local Spanish consultant, and they will have information regarding the location you are in and where you can receive the permit. For nonresidents, you will need your passport and a photocopy.

 

[Quietey]

Here's some very detailed info about hunting in France:

Hunting and Licences to Hunt in France - France - Angloinfo

Hunting is tightly controlled in France. If you want to hunt in France you will need a valid hunting licence. This licence allows you to hunt in a given territory, for a given period. The licence must be renewed (validated) each year.

In order to have the right to hunt in France, it is necessary to have a hunting permit (permis de chasser). Hunters have to pass a theory and practical exam before being given a licence. Both of these exams are organised by the National Hunting and Wildlife Agency, ONCFS (Office National de Chasse et de la Faune Sauvage) and are held all year round.

To prepare for this exam, hunters have to undergo an obligatory training course. Candidates cannot take the practical exam until they have passed the theory exam and must be at least 15 years old on the day of the theory exam. If the candidate fails one of the exams then they must begin the process again and fill in a new application form.

The theory exam includes 21 questions based on the following themes:

• knowledge of wildlife (recognising game and protected species, animal biology and their way of life)
• knowledge of hunting (different hunting techniques, knowledge and use of hunting dogs and hunting vocabulary)
• knowledge of the rules and laws concerning hunting policies and nature protection
• knowledge of arms and munitions, how to use them and security rules

To pass the exam, you will need to have 16 correct answers out of 21 and must have replied correctly to the two questions concerning security. The certificate is issued by the inspectors of the ONCFS. The practical exam can only be taken once you have succeeded the theory exam. Following the theory exam you have 18 months to pass the practical exam. The exam has three parts:

• simulation of hunting, shooting with blanks
• target shooting test, with black targets representing species that can be hunted and red targets representing protected species or animals that can’t be hunted.
• shooting a moving target

Any dangerous behaviour will lead to automatic failure of the exam. To pass the practical exam you must have 16 points correct out of 21.

Hunters have to have insurance (Assurance obligatoire de responsabilité civile) in France and you must carry proof of insurance (attestation d’insurance) when hunting. To have your hunting permit validated you must show proof of insurance

BBM

Hope this puts matters a little into perspective.

That's legal hunting though. Not all hunting is legal. (eg French government to launch legal action against bear killers). I've no idea what the scale of illegal hunting might be

 

[stmarysmead]

Following up on the possibility of a fatal encounter with hunters...ZaZara’s information presents another frightening possibility:

Suppose the hunters were unlicensed and in violation of the Covid protocols. If they accidentally killed a woman, who is alone, in the wilderness, and with no witnesses...might there not be a temptation to cover up the entire tragedy?

 

[Quietey]

A bit of a tangential post - I found this by accident, some beautiful photos of the area around Benasque. They show the general area from a different perspective from the route photos that we have been looking at. A lot of the pictures we have posted look more craggy and rocky, these show the scale of the forested areas too:

Benasque Fragments

(edited to include link!)

 

[Quietey]

Following up on the possibility of a fatal encounter with hunters...ZaZara’s information presents another frightening possibility:

Suppose the hunters were unlicensed and in violation of the Covid protocols. If they accidentally killed a woman, who is alone, in the wilderness, and with no witnesses...might there not be a temptation to cover up the entire tragedy?

Exactly - particularly during lockdown when it might be expected that there would be no-one in the area