Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #3

[Grouse]

Lastly, I am not convinced no one stayed at the Refuge de Vanesque 22-24/11. I think the data is inconclusive or at least we should actively question it, as DC does (e.g. is the SARs' conclusion based on just no sign-in by ED? were sniffer dogs used with ED's clothing? was the latrine examined? were samples taken for DNA testing? could she have bivouaced outside?). So to me we should leave open the possibility that ED got to the Refuge de V, stayed there, and continued on her intended route on 23/11...

RedHaus I agree, it seems inconclusive and rather vague to me about what validation was done about ED staying at the Refuge. From the dossier "Dan did offer to give clothes / samples to the French polices so they could do a forensic search or send in sniffer dogs, but they said they didn't have that type of dog and/or it was too long afterwards".

According to How Long Can Scent Survive? - Missing Animal Response Network a missing scent trail can last a long time (13 days is mentioned in a lost hiker case) which leads me to question the "too long afterwards" and therefore the thoroughness of the search in general.

 

[otto]

Hi otto.

I do think hunters stay in the alpine shelters overnight. Not all of course. But I posted up thread information about Cabane du Pesson (about 15 minutes from Hospice de France) and it mentions it is frequented by hunters. I also don't think we have to only focus on the night of 22/11. It is possible that ED got to Hospice de France on 23/11, where as you say, there may have been more hunters in the area, especially if she continued her 'loop' through the forests of chemin de l'impératrice.

To me it is possible ED was planning to check in next with DC by phone at about 24 hours after her last check-in (i.e. end of day on 23/11), like she did between 21-22/11 (that was a 26 hour interval without communication). She may not have felt compelled to check in the first moment she had cell service again. So whatever happened to ED - accident / suicide / hunter / voluntary disappearance, etc., - could have happened 23/11 and she could have been far from Refuge de Vanesque.

Lastly, I am not convinced no one stayed at the Refuge de Vanesque 22-24/11. I think the data is inconclusive or at least we should actively question it, as DC does (e.g. is the SARs' conclusion based on just no sign-in by ED? were sniffer dogs used with ED's clothing? was the latrine examined? were samples taken for DNA testing? could she have bivouaced outside?). So to me we should leave open the possibility that ED got to the Refuge de V, stayed there, and continued on her intended route on 23/11...

Someone suggested that perhaps the photo of Esther at the summit around 4PM on Nov 22 was a Nov 21 photo that she uploaded from another location. There are pages of discussion about this.

However, she was at the summit at 4PM on Nov 22. There was no reason to doubt this fact.

She stated that her plan was to hike to the refuge and to spend the night. She did not reserve in advance, she did not sign-in or leave a note, she did not pay. Therefore, it's likely that she did not arrive. That doesn't mean that she hiked somewhere else. That means that something prevented her from following through with her plan to find a "Winter room" at the refuge.

Per the dossier:

"Dan stayed there himself for 2 nights while searching the area and reported that there is no sign of anybody having been there."​

 

[otto]

It’s true that the lake scenario has been a little bit dismissed in the dossier and it fits perfectly with the timeframe we know of ED going missing on the way to the refuge + nowhere to be seen, but the only reason I can’t get my head around that happening is because her bag full of hiking equipment would surely float with all the contents. We know what she was carrying and I can’t think why the bag wouldn’t make her float

I mentioned Michel Trudeau (brother of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau) who was skiing in the Rocky Mountains and slid down the mountain into the lake. There were witnesses. He surfaced, but he could not get out of his back pack and skis in time to save himself. He is still at the bottom of the lake more than 20 years later. His pack did not float him to the surface. If former Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau could have retrieved his son's body, he would have done so. It simply was not possible.

 

[sundaaaay]

I mentioned Michel Trudeau (brother of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau) who was skiing in the Rocky Mountains and slid down the mountain into the lake. There were witnesses. He surfaced, but he could not get out of his back pack and skis in time to save himself. He is still at the bottom of the lake more than 20 years later. His pack did not float him to the surface. If former Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau could have retrieved his son's body, he would have done so. It simply was not possible.

I never knew this happened to Justin Trudeau’s brother, the poor guy, how sad. Interesting that they never found him. It is different though as an avalanche pushed him (probably several meters at least) into the lake and skis possibly weighed him down. Still the lake scenario does fit with the available evidence and the cold temperature would obviously be very dangerous.

 

[otto]

Esther Dingley was hiking above the Boum de Venasque (the lake at the back in the photo)

Boum de Venaque : Altitude 2248 m, Depth 46 m

Boums de Venasque - Bagnères de Luchon

For comparison, Michel Trudeau into the lake Nov 13, 1998.

Kokanee Lake : Surface elevation 1,981 m (6,499 ft), max depth 150 m

"The 1,900-m altitude limited each diver to less than 10 minutes in the ice-cold water. ... At the discussion where the decision was made to suspend the search, Sacha Trudeau "expressed the family's desire that no one else be put in danger to search for the body,""
​

Trudeau Search Suspended | The Canadian Encyclopedia

 

[otto]

I never knew this happened to Justin Trudeau’s brother, the poor guy, how sad. Interesting that they never found him. It is different though as an avalanche pushed him (probably several meters at least) into the lake and skis possibly weighed him down. Still the lake scenario does fit with the available evidence and the cold temperature would obviously be very dangerous.

That is what happened - into the middle of the lake in full gear. If Esther had a mishap high above the lake, she could have landed some distance from shore as well.

 

[sundaaaay]

Im not sure why it was dismissed, I think it’s because during the day maybe it’s very clear but remember ED may have been rushing along as it got darker. Strange that she wouldn’t have landed, likely fatally, by the edge as it’s not as steep as some photographs suggest

 

[RickshawFan]

It’s true that the lake scenario has been a little bit dismissed in the dossier and it fits perfectly with the timeframe we know of ED going missing on the way to the refuge + nowhere to be seen, but the only reason I can’t get my head around that happening is because her bag full of hiking equipment would surely float with all the contents. We know what she was carrying and I can’t think why the bag wouldn’t make her float

The pack would be on her. If she had a fall accident, the combination of pack and person would have been involved in the fall, unless perhaps her pack was off at the time, it rolled away from her, she went after it, and she had a terrible accident.
Packs don't float.
The dossier notwithstanding, the pack would have weighed 30+ pounds, dead weight, especially the first day or two of the trip, while the food bag was full.
A pack would pull someone under, no question.

FWIW, you can be wearing a pack, slip, and end up on your back like an upside down turtle. I've seen this happen where a trail ran along the edge of a cliff. The hiker was helpless. I was able to release a strap so he could get one arm out of the harness. It was so sudden, and very scary; the guy just flipped. I didn't realize what a risk I was taking in helping him until I looked at the situation afterwards.

 

[otto]

Im not sure why it was dismissed, I think it’s because during the day maybe it’s very clear but remember ED may have been rushing along as it got darker. Strange that she wouldn’t have landed, likely fatally, by the edge as it’s not as steep as some photographs suggest

Hard to say, but, at the risk of sounding insensitive, my impression is that when something falls a long way down a slope, there can be some bounce and ricochet. It's not a straight slide.

 

[RickshawFan]

RedHaus I agree, it seems inconclusive and rather vague to me about what validation was done about ED staying at the Refuge. From the dossier "Dan did offer to give clothes / samples to the French polices so they could do a forensic search or send in sniffer dogs, but they said they didn't have that type of dog and/or it was too long afterwards".

According to How Long Can Scent Survive? - Missing Animal Response Network a missing scent trail can last a long time (13 days is mentioned in a lost hiker case) which leads me to question the "too long afterwards" and therefore the thoroughness of the search in general.

But Dan also stayed at the Refuge for two days—and perhaps some other occasional hikers had entered—as well as SAR. All of that would have contaminated the aroma, especially that many days after ED was scheduled to be there.

 

[stmarysmead]

I found this picture that says it’s the Port and the Buom de Venasque.
Is this another shot of the trail she’d have been on. If so, it looks less like a fall would have resulted in reaching and submerging in the Buom. Or is this misleading?

 

[sundaaaay]

I found this picture that says it’s the Port and the Buom de Venasque.
Is this another shot of the trail she’d have been on. If so, it looks less like a fall would have resulted in reaching and submerging in the Buom. Or is this misleading?

View attachment 279707

That is the trail she supposedly took to the refuge, it really isn’t that steep. Then again was she at the waters edge taking photos and fell in that way.

 

[otto]

I found this picture that says it’s the Port and the Buom de Venasque.
Is this another shot of the trail she’d have been on. If so, it looks less like a fall would have resulted in reaching and submerging in the Buom. Or is this misleading?

View attachment 279707

It's hard to say exactly how and where things go wrong, but too often people vanish while back country hiking. Many are never found. Different photos of the area give different impressions about the dangers.

 

[otto]

That is the trail she supposedly took to the refuge, it really isn’t that steep. Then again was she at the waters edge taking photos and fell in that way.

The black zig-zag irregular line is the trail. Switchbacks means it's steep. There's a cable system near the Port de Venasque - which must be there for a reason.



OpenTopoMap - Topographische Karten aus OpenStreetMap

Cable System



https://42cc80b7-be3b-41e3-a85b-18b...d/4addd9_d8c55b489c6f445b96d6324dd882f5a1.pdf

 

[Muva]

This story was in the paper today but doesn't seem to have been mentioned. A new witness claims that Esther told her that she and Dan were "on a break". Also, British police have become involved; Missing hiker 'had problems in her love life' Brit cops hear as they join search

 

[otto]

Just noticed something

• altitude cable system (see caption in photo) : 2738 m
• altitude Boum de Venasque : 2248 m

That's a 500 m (1600 ft) drop. The switchbacks, including the cable system, are above the lake (see topo map)

We can probably calculate her speed at the lake elevation - if she fell 500 m

"The higher any object starts falling from above Earth’s surface, the faster it’s traveling by the time it reaches the ground. Do you know why? The reason is gravity."​

Acceleration Due to Gravity

 

[otto]

This story was in the paper today but doesn't seem to have been mentioned. A new witness claims that Esther told her that she and Dan were "on a break". Also, British police have become involved; Missing hiker 'had problems in her love life' Brit cops hear as they join search

Thank you for posting this. It actually fits-in with the direction the discussion was going regarding possibilities such as voluntarily missing (suicide?), accident and criminal event.

This is definitely a reference to asking strangers for food. It brings back something else we discussed - why she was quibbling over small change regarding the chia seeds that were, or were not, on sale. Was she short on money?

"Hiker Laura Adomaitye met Esther, 37, at a shelter days earlier and was surprised at how little food she carried."
​

To her emotional state:

"“When you are not 100 per cent OK with your partner, you’re not going to be totally balanced emotionally.”
​

Missing hiker 'had problems in her love life' Brit cops hear as they join search

 

[otto]

There are some comments upthread that Dan may have been the driving force to push themselves a little farther as part of their hiking experience. Did she sometimes want to turn back, or was she reluctant to do the hike - is that why she lingered on the Spain side of the Port de Venasque for 2 days, and did not start the hike until later in the afternoon? Was she reluctant?

Does anyone have a handy source / link for that description of their hiking relationship.

Someone else recently upthread questioned why she spent 2 days in Spain so near the 1-2 hour hike to the refuge - could it speak to state of mind?

They had hiked the Alps together and landed in France Oct 4 (dossier). Did something happen during that trip that led Esther to want to prove something to herself?

 

[Officer Dibble]

Redhaus, that was surely a difficult post to write but I agree with every word. I’d like to add a few more thoughts to your excellent post.

1. Dan and Esther ‘escaped’ 6 years ago from successful careers that they believed made them sick and stressful. They have been living on rental income and odd jobs. But their blog seems to have morphed into a marketing vehicle for their books...advertising the dog books as Christmas gifts...promoting their lifestyle books on Amazon. And suddenly, just before her disappearance, they get a big break...a feature on BBC...that could lead to more interviews, more commercialization of their lifestyle...and more pressure. It’s sliding back into the very lifestyle they ran away from. Perhaps this accounted for some of the fear Esther kept expressing.

2. They seem to have given away their much loved dogs. Yes, I understand...Covid, dogs, very small quarters. But they have lived in small quarters with multiple dogs for years! Covid brought no change in that. Maybe the owner of the rental house didn’t want them on his property. But no matter what...many depressed suicidal folks give away things they love. And she seemed to take great joy from those dogs.

3. Esther knew that her return was a return to “no end in sight”quarantine. It was a return to a partner who was tiring of their nomadic life and who had, as he states in his dossier, been experiencing continuing health problems. The dogs were gone. Their business as authors and lifestyle gurus had ramped up. What would that mean that she would be required to do...what responsibilities would she need to undertake? What would these changes mean for her own health as she speaks so often of needing to self care?

I had no idea they got rid of the dogs.

 

[Muva]

Thank you for posting this. It actually fits-in with the direction the discussion was going regarding possibilities such as voluntarily missing (suicide?), accident and criminal event.

​

Missing hiker 'had problems in her love life' Brit cops hear as they join search

The part that stood out most to me was where Laura said;

“I told them what she said to me about their relationship.
Esther said she and Dan were taking a break and she didn’t know if they were going to get back together."