Found Deceased Spain - Esther Dingley, from UK, missing in the Pyrenees, November 2020 #4

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Thanks I think everyone on the forum is free to put forward their theories - that’s what being a ‘sleuth’ is all about and is what makes this platform interesting. I’m not wildly speculating about the couple having financial difficulties - I know first hand the cost of living in France, I believe that house-sitting doesn’t produce an income as it’s offered unpaid in return for the accommodation, I know that self published books rarely make any money, I’m aware that renting out a property to pay the mortgage rarely makes a profit after costs are taken into consideration. When additional unexpected lifestyle expenses above the norm are taken into account, like having to pay for dental treatment, dog sickness or having to pay for travel to the UK for any reason, these costs add up MASSIVELY. Also, ED apparently had little food, had queried the cost of one purchase... If you were to produce a factual breakdown of Income/Expenditure related to this couple’s lifestyle then the document would most probably show they were in severe dire straits.

Just to counterbalance your experience, having spent the last 6 years travelling around Europe, 3 to 5 months at a time, I can absolutely confirm that it's cheaper than living at home in England. We usually stay on campsites and always self cater.
In those 6 years we have been to France 10 times, the last trip was in July, August & September last year - totally legally.
Fuel costs are cheaper everywhere in Europe, with the exception of Italy and Scandinavia. Food in supermarkets can be expensive, however if you plan ahead and shop in Lidl or Aldi, prices are much the same as the the UK - except for meat which is a little more expensive. However in the mountains the shop are of the 7-11 type - poor choice\quality and price. This will be the case in Benasque, which is literally at the end of the road.
 
I can't speak for the EU, but I did live in a Honda for a loooooong time in the US. I kept thinking it would be cheaper because I wouldn't have to pay rent. I'm even eligible for 1/2 price camp spots in federal campgrounds (there are quite literally thousands of campgrounds in this category). Sometimes, I was spending only $4 per night.
However, there are hidden costs you don't think of. For instance, when I added up the $$ for having a tiny cooler for milk, bacon, eggs, and blueberries, @$2 per day for ice, that's $60 a month. Since I didn't have a way to store homemade casseroles and soups, my main meals ended up costing more than they would at home. Laundromats started to add up: $10 per week would be $40 per month.
Cooking fuel costs more than you might imagine, and then fuel is needed to run the lantern.
The toilet might be quite a walk, and if you're in a cheap space, it's likely to be a privy (although these are sometimes better than flush-toilets).
The car needs oil change, maintenance, and new tires to accommodate the extra miles. Driving all those extra miles increases the costs of insurance.
There is specialized equipment. I had this already, but it really adds up: a rain canopy for the picnic table, guy ropes, clothes pins, stove, dish basin, headlamps, batteries, lanterns, sleeping bag....
Federal campgrounds generally don't have wifi, so you have to figure out how to address those needs. How do you entertain yourself? You can buy books. Or you can borrow them from a nearby library, for which you'll need to pay for a card since you're not local. Or—my method—get a library card for the sole purpose of downloading public library books, and since you can only take out 3 at a time (not close to enough for me), you might have to have 2....

Then you need a resettlement kitty for when you have to return to your mundane reality.

God forbid you need healthcare because you tripped on a root in the middle of the night on a nature call.

See what I mean about stuff adding up? True, I've given you US expenses, but my point is that things that don't cost money at home, can cost a lot on the road, and there are many, many, many hidden expenses.

Doing all this in the EU? I can't even imagine being able to afford it. I find the EU very expensive.

And, I'm sorry, but chia seeds would never have fit in my budget.

******
PS I highly recommend cooking blueberry pancakes, eggs, and bacon on a picnic table at an interstate rest area, just to see people's faces when they see and sniff the whole layout.

I agree on all of this, and you are speaking from experience. First rule of business is ‘never remove yourself from your source of income’ (unless you have an inheritance or investments). Readers of the books that were put out by EF and DC and the social media postings might think their lifestyle sounds idyllic, a perfect escape and solution to their own issues, because that’s the story they were telling. However, it’s useful to be advised that there are two sides to any coin. Before considering this lifestyle, best to read the posts here advising of the pros and cons. *My opinion is not based on ‘jealousy’ as one poster put it - I wouldn’t find living in a campervan with dogs at all attractive, never mind mountaineering in November. My opinion is based on living and travelling around the world on projects over the course of the past 20 years and knowing the costs and the issues that arise; I therefore tend to live in reality rather than fantasy.
 
....have a whistle immediately to hand....
On the necessity of this, I can affirm that ED had a whistle right in front of her chin. If you have a hiking pack, you might have one too! Look at the sternum strap buckle.

*****
The whistle is a safety item, and although this is veering off-topic, I'd really like y'all to be safe and pay attention to this little detail about where to find it on your pack. It might save your life. If anyone needs an illustrative post on this, get my attention, on-topic or not.
 
I can't speak for the EU, but I did live in a Honda for a loooooong time in the US. I kept thinking it would be cheaper because I wouldn't have to pay rent. I'm even eligible for 1/2 price camp spots in federal campgrounds (there are quite literally thousands of campgrounds in this category). Sometimes, I was spending only $4 per night.
However, there are hidden costs you don't think of. For instance, when I added up the $$ for having a tiny cooler for milk, bacon, eggs, and blueberries, @$2 per day for ice, that's $60 a month. Since I didn't have a way to store homemade casseroles and soups, my main meals ended up costing more than they would at home. Laundromats started to add up: $10 per week would be $40 per month.
Cooking fuel costs more than you might imagine, and then fuel is needed to run the lantern.
The toilet might be quite a walk, and if you're in a cheap space, it's likely to be a privy (although these are sometimes better than flush-toilets).
The car needs oil change, maintenance, and new tires to accommodate the extra miles. Driving all those extra miles increases the costs of insurance.
There is specialized equipment. I had this already, but it really adds up: a rain canopy for the picnic table, guy ropes, clothes pins, stove, dish basin, headlamps, batteries, lanterns, sleeping bag....
Federal campgrounds generally don't have wifi, so you have to figure out how to address those needs. How do you entertain yourself? You can buy books. Or you can borrow them from a nearby library, for which you'll need to pay for a card since you're not local. Or—my method—get a library card for the sole purpose of downloading public library books, and since you can only take out 3 at a time (not close to enough for me), you might have to have 2....

Then you need a resettlement kitty for when you have to return to your mundane reality.

God forbid you need healthcare because you tripped on a root in the middle of the night on a nature call.

See what I mean about stuff adding up? True, I've given you US expenses, but my point is that things that don't cost money at home, can cost a lot on the road, and there are many, many, many hidden expenses.

Doing all this in the EU? I can't even imagine being able to afford it. I find the EU very expensive.

And, I'm sorry, but chia seeds would never have fit in my budget.

******
PS I highly recommend cooking blueberry pancakes, eggs, and bacon on a picnic table at an interstate rest area, just to see people's faces when they see and sniff the whole layout.

I agree on all of this, and you are speaking from experience. First rule of business is ‘never remove yourself from your source of income’ (unless you have an inheritance or investments). Readers of the books that were put out by EF and DC and the social media postings might think their lifestyle sounds idyllic, a perfect escape and solution to their own issues, because that’s the story they were telling. However, it’s useful to be advised that there are two sides to any coin. Before considering this lifestyle, best to read the posts here advising of the pros and cons. *My opinion is not based on ‘jealousy’ as one poster put it - I wouldn’t find living in a campervan with dogs at all attractive, never mind mountaineering in November. My opinion is based on living and travelling around the world on projects over the course of the past 20
Actually, otto, the stray dog they found / adopted, Leela, had six puppies. There is one pic of the puppy pile with all six. But most pics are with the four puppies the 'kept'. Two puppies were adopted out early on, one to a French lady, who DC and ED had visited - not sure how many times. So they had seven dogs at one point.

years and knowing the costs and the issues that arise; I therefore tend to live in reality rather than fantasy.
Just to counterbalance your experience, having spent the last 6 years travelling around Europe, 3 to 5 months at a time, I can absolutely confirm that it's cheaper than living at home in England. We usually stay on campsites and always self cater.
In those 6 years we have been to France 10 times, the last trip was in July, August & September last year - totally legally.
Fuel costs are cheaper everywhere in Europe, with the exception of Italy and Scandinavia. Food in supermarkets can be expensive, however if you plan ahead and shop in Lidl or Aldi, prices are much the same as the the UK - except for meat which is a little more expensive. However in the mountains the shop are of the 7-11 type - poor choice\quality and price. This will be the case in Benasque, which is literally at the end of the road.
Just to counterbalance your experience, having spent the last 6 years travelling around Europe, 3 to 5 months at a time, I can absolutely confirm that it's cheaper than living at home in England. We usually stay on campsites and always self cater.
In those 6 years we have been to France 10 times, the last trip was in July, August & September last year - totally legally.
Fuel costs are cheaper everywhere in Europe, with the exception of Italy and Scandinavia. Food in supermarkets can be expensive, however if you plan ahead and shop in Lidl or Aldi, prices are much the same as the the UK - except for meat which is a little more expensive. However in the mountains the shop are of the 7-11 type - poor choice\quality and price. This will be the case in Benasque, which is literally at the end of the road.

Anything is expensive if you don’t have a sufficient income to cover it...
 
On the necessity of this, I can affirm that ED had a whistle right in front of her chin. If you have a hiking pack, you might have one too! Look at the sternum strap buckle.

*****
The whistle is a safety item, and although this is veering off-topic, I'd really like y'all to be safe and pay attention to this little detail about where to find it on your pack. It might save your life. If anyone needs an illustrative post on this, get my attention, on-topic or not.

As soon as I saw it I just knew you would pick on the whistle comment Rickshawfan ;)
 
Hi, could you please add price comparisons for your claims?

AFAIK Fuel for their diesel van is 10 cents cheaper in France, and 25 cents cheaper in Spain than in the UK, stand middle of January 2021.

Fuel prices in Europe in January 2021

Food prices are higher in France than in the UK, but Spain is much cheaper than the UK (impact of Brexit not calculated yet)

Food prices in Europe rising at ‘rapid rate’: Where are the most expensive countries to eat?

10cents less on fuel in not sufficiently less to make much of a difference to the total of their monthly budget. Food in France is expensive but toiletries and skincare even more so. I know for a fact as I live in Paris. The point I’m making is that taking every aspect of their lifestyle into consideration, including ongoing costs in England, it could be equally as expensive as living in a house.
 
Ask yourself if you’d say all this to Dan or Esthers parents. If you wouldn’t, then you shouldn’t be saying it here.[/QUOTE]

Let me answer your question this way: I have two adult daughters. As close as we are, they are adults and while I may know a great deal about their lives, I often can’t tell what is said so that “Mom won’t worry” from what is really going on. If, God forbid, either of them were in Esther’s situation, I would take no offense at any information or theory that might bring them home to me. Even if I found it distasteful, or not flattering to my daughters image, I’d welcome it.

When we know someone is deceased, we look only 0n a flattering narrative. When they have strangely disappeared, all information and all theories are IMO necessary. Was Esther really happy with Dan? Why were dogs that they professed that they loved so much for 5 years, given away? What was behind
what seems to be a NEED to ignore lockdown and not in a small or unpublicized way.

If life was not as perfect as their PR suggested, how many of ours would be? Our discussion here is meant...just by the term sleuthing...to resemble what the authorities might do. What would writing endless accolades and praise do to bring closure or a living Esther home?
 
<snipped and BBM>
On the same subject, is their property still rented out? I know that a lot of people moved when lockdown was first announced. Even if it is still rented out and they are getting income from that, say the rental income is £1,500. After the mortgage is paid, exactly how much is left over each month? Then as the owners they still have to pay all the maintenance costs/general upkeep. Another point, if their home is rented out, where were they planning on living when they returned?
.

Despite being still quite young they've been together a long time already, nearly 20 years. By working hard in the 10 years or so before they went traveling, and ploughing everything they could early on into that mortgage, they may even have paid it off by now, or have relatively little left on it. We did that and got ours paid off in about 15 years by bumping up the payments when we could.

from --> About Us | Esther & Dan - Adventuring Together - Life, Love, Health & Travel
"Neither of us have ever really been particularly driven by material possessions, but we were both savers by nature and so anything spare went into repaying that mortgage. We also worked hard to earn extra where we could and began sacrificing holidays, meals out etc."
 
10cents less on fuel in not sufficiently less to make much of a difference to the total of their monthly budget. Food in France is expensive but toiletries and skincare even more so. I know for a fact as I live in Paris. The point I’m making is that taking every aspect of their lifestyle into consideration, including ongoing costs in England, it could be equally as expensive as living in a house.

Which by all accounts is the most expensive city in the world.
We usually buy Cien toiletries, and they are cheap.
 
Ask yourself if you’d say all this to Dan or Esthers parents. If you wouldn’t, then you shouldn’t be saying it here.

Let me answer your question this way: I have two adult daughters. As close as we are, they are adults and while I may know a great deal about their lives, I often can’t tell what is said so that “Mom won’t worry” from what is really going on. If, God forbid, either of them were in Esther’s situation, I would take no offense at any information or theory that might bring them home to me. Even if I found it distasteful, or not flattering to my daughters image, I’d welcome it.

When we know someone is deceased, we look only 0n a flattering narrative. When they have strangely disappeared, all information and all theories are IMO necessary. Was Esther really happy with Dan? Why were dogs that they professed that they loved so much for 5 years, given away? What was behind
what seems to be a NEED to ignore lockdown and not in a small or unpublicized way.

If life was not as perfect as their PR suggested, how many of ours would be? Our discussion here is meant...just by the term sleuthing...to resemble what the authorities might do. What would writing endless accolades and praise do to bring closure or a living Esther home?[/QUOTE]

I agree wholeheartedly - and also the entire scenario serves as a lesson as what not to do. .. I’m sure if either of your daughters was planning to go hitchhiking (!!!) and mountaineering alone (!!!) into bear/wolf territory (!!!) in November then you’d have to sit them down and persuade them to see sense - rather than encourage them and plan out their route.
 
Despite being still quite young they've been together a long time already, nearly 20 years. By working hard in the 10 years or so before they went traveling, and ploughing everything they could early on into that mortgage, they may even have paid it off by now, or have relatively little left on it. We did that and got ours paid off in about 15 years by bumping up the payments when we could.

from --> About Us | Esther & Dan - Adventuring Together - Life, Love, Health & Travel
"Neither of us have ever really been particularly driven by material possessions, but we were both savers by nature and so anything spare went into repaying that mortgage. We also worked hard to earn extra where we could and began sacrificing holidays, meals out etc."

You haven’t read their full story... they had huge financial disaster prior to leaving.
 
Which by all accounts is the most expensive city in the world.
We usually buy Cien toiletries, and they are cheap.

I don’t do cheap

However, what we’re discussing here is an overview of their TOTAL outlay per month and how it compares with their potential income, with a view to discerning if they were in financial trouble. If they were, it could contribute to the circumstances of ED’s disappearance and lead to her being found. *Living in a country ongoing is very different to travelling there 3 months at a time. When you live in another country, you have to consider costs that would otherwise be covered at home ie medical/dental and/or pay for increased insurance costs.
 
:DSo few people know it's there, and this little thing could save their lives.


I know about the whistle as I hike in the Santa Monica Mountains (very hot temperatures; confusing animal trails; cougar, coyote and brush fire territory) and I had thorough training from day one about the guidelines/rules and regs of safe hiking. Even then I was super-cautious about having sufficient water and never being alone. Apparently, ED had been on a safety training course before they left. If you care about your personal safety, you don’t take any risks at all.
 
I can't speak for the EU, but I did live in a Honda for a loooooong time in the US. I kept thinking it would be cheaper because I wouldn't have to pay rent. I'm even eligible for 1/2 price camp spots in federal campgrounds (there are quite literally thousands of campgrounds in this category). Sometimes, I was spending only $4 per night.
However, there are hidden costs you don't think of. For instance, when I added up the $$ for having a tiny cooler for milk, bacon, eggs, and blueberries, @$2 per day for ice, that's $60 a month. Since I didn't have a way to store homemade casseroles and soups, my main meals ended up costing more than they would at home. Laundromats started to add up: $10 per week would be $40 per month.
Cooking fuel costs more than you might imagine, and then fuel is needed to run the lantern.
The toilet might be quite a walk, and if you're in a cheap space, it's likely to be a privy (although these are sometimes better than flush-toilets). You have to buy drinking water, since there's no way to tell if public water is actually potable.
The car needs oil change, maintenance, and new tires to accommodate the extra miles. Driving all those extra miles increases the costs of insurance.
There is specialized equipment. I had this already, but it really adds up: a rain canopy for the picnic table, guy ropes, clothes pins, stove, dish basin, headlamps, batteries, lanterns, sleeping bag....
Federal campgrounds generally don't have wifi, so you have to figure out how to address those needs. How do you entertain yourself? You can buy books. Or you can borrow them from a nearby library, for which you'll need to pay for a card since you're not local. Or—my method—get a library card for the sole purpose of downloading public library books, and since you can only take out 3 at a time (not close to enough for me), you might have to have 2....

Then you need a resettlement kitty for when you have to return to your mundane reality.

God forbid you need healthcare because you tripped on a root in the middle of the night on a nature call.

See what I mean about stuff adding up? True, I've given you US expenses, but my point is that things that don't cost money at home, can cost a lot on the road, and there are many, many, many hidden expenses.

Doing all this in the EU? I can't even imagine being able to afford it. I find the EU very expensive.

And, I'm sorry, but chia seeds would never have fit in my budget.

******
PS I highly recommend cooking blueberry pancakes, eggs, and bacon on a picnic table at an interstate rest area, just to see people's faces when they see and sniff the whole layout.


Their campervan has: Big Bathroom. Oven / Grill + 3-burner hob, Large Fridge & Separate Freezer – 3-way control (gas, 12V, mains)

Our Motorhome | Esther & Dan - Adventuring Together - Life, Love, Health & Travel
 
At the risk of sounding like a broken record about the BBC article ... Van life: Durham couple's six years on the road (and counting)



I'm not being swayed by anything. I see where you are coming from but from what I've seen and read I don't get the impression they were struggling financially, and equally I get the impression neither is materialistic enough for money to be a major source of conflict. "He takes me to the best restaurants" as she said, eating a simple meal on a mountain.

The thing that makes me feel they may have had some financial issues is that when DC advertises the books on Facebook he does encourage people / family to buy them as it 'will help them out' or words to that effect. It did read like a bit of a plea!
 
They certainly have lived a Spartan life...this is from their account of life in their first van.

‘To give some examples, during the past week or so that we've been enjoying the peace and quiet of this beautiful Spanish beach camping we've been pretty mindful not only of minimising use of our water pump to save power, but also minimising use of gas.

The reason for this is that we don't have a refillable system, don't have space to fit standard Spanish gas bottles in Homer's gas cupboard and don't fancy spending a small fortune on the smaller CampinGaz ones either. Instead we're hauling 2 extra French 5kg bottles with us, one of which is living in the habitation and we have to move around it throughout the day. However, since this has to power our fridge we're in full gas conserving mode, not only cooking some of our meals on a meths burner outside (which gets enough funny looks) but also showering in the frosty, but free, beach showers close to our parking. In fact, use of any warm water whatsoever in Homer is strictly off limits for the foreseeable future! And don't even think about the heating either if it gets chilly, we've got extra coats for that.

Coming back to the water pump, after our scare with the leisure battery and top up by our kindly neighbours, we're also now acting the role of 'tap' for each other by pouring water from a plastic bottle over each others hands or any crockery that needs a rinse when it comes to washing up.
 

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