Stain in Trunk May Show Outline of Child**REVISIT FOR READING*

[Truthwillsetufree]

When she was asked if she knew Zenaida, had ever met her, had ever spoken to her on the phone she insisted that she had her phone number at home. Knowing what we know of Cindy's persistence I would say that if she really had it she would have tried again. Of course we know when she was saying this that she was lying anyway..
If not, why hasn't she given LE the phone number as yet?

If CA had ZFG's phone number CA would have rang that phone and rang that phone and texted the numbers and letters off her (CA's) own phone. ZFG the babysitter, would have never had a moments peace if CA had had her phone number. This in itself only goes to prove the Babysitter, Nanny, ZFG Did Not, Does Not exist. JMO.

 

[Truthwillsetufree]

I believe it is impossible to detail a car that has had human decomposition in it. It was stink forever, especially when it rains.

I think Mythbusters did a thing about this in their first season. They used a dead pig and a corvette IIRC. They did not get the odor out.

 

[nobull]

Somewhere in this doc dump one of the lab techs answers a question about if the car is still in the garage for further processing and she says "yes, and it smells horrible".
OK - if there is no dna from the stain in the trunk, and only 1 hair with deathband (thanks to the great cleaning talent of CA) - I think that the prosecution should take all of the jurors for a visit to the garage for a field trip to get a whiff of that car. I believe that would nail the coffin shut.

I realize that this is not a scientifically identical experiment, but there was a Mythbusters TV episode where they put a dead pig in a car, to test the theory that the car could be cleaned up enough to clear the smell.

These are the results, I felt they were fairly compelling:

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode7

 

[nobull]

I think Mythbusters did a thing about this in their first season. They used a dead pig and a corvette IIRC. They did not get the odor out.

Lol. Great minds, TWSUF! :wink:

 

[Jolynna]

I realize that this is not a scientifically identical experiment, but there was a Mythbusters TV episode where they put a dead pig in a car, to test the theory that the car could be cleaned up enough to clear the smell.

These are the results, I felt they were fairly compelling:

http://mythbustersresults.com/episode7

Great point. But, would George have left Tony's fly-infested trash bag in the Pontiac trunk?

 

[abel]

This thread is a perfect candidate for a poll. I'm just not seeing it.

 

[Valhall]

I don't see it either, but then I don't need to. I think it's a non-issue UNLESS the FBI, etc. have photo enhancement tools that can bring it out on a flat photo that can be blown up and presented in the court room. Otherwise, it's kind of like a guy I knew a few years back who was obsessed with doodling on Mars Observer pictures and finding all manner of nonexistent "things" in the images. As the talking-heads have said - I don't think there's going to be much probative value in this.

The more weighty question is - what did they get from the analysis of the full carpet liner once they got it. The only results we've seen (unless I've missed something) are the air tests...not the full results on forensics of the liner itself.

 

[Harmony 2]

I don't see it either, but then I don't need to. I think it's a non-issue UNLESS the FBI, etc. have photo enhancement tools that can bring it out on a flat photo that can be blown up and presented in the court room. Otherwise, it's kind of like a guy I knew a few years back who was obsessed with doodling on Mars Observer pictures and finding all manner of nonexistent "things" in the images. As the talking-heads have said - I don't think there's going to be much probative value in this.

The more weighty question is - what did they get from the analysis of the full carpet liner once they got it. The only results we've seen (unless I've missed something) are the air tests...not the full results on forensics of the liner itself.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The LIB results pertained to the air sample, right?? I found this old article about the Body Farm research/testing and wondered if testing had been done on the stain to test for the five fatty acids released in decomp. It speaks of a 'phantom fingerprint on the earth' but the same should hold true if a body decomposed in a trunk.

Meanwhile, the techniques for retracing the evolution of a murder are getting ever more refined. Take soil samples. As bodies decompose, they leak five fatty acids into the ground beneath them. Each day after death, the various profiles of these acids will vary. Analysis of them can reveal the time of death, as well as pinpoint exactly how long any given body has been lying in a particular place. The soil can also reveal the presence of a corpse, even if the body itself has been removed or destroyed. The ''stain'' left by a body's volatile acids, which also suppresses plant life around it, can last for up to two years, leaving a kind of phantom fingerprint in the earth. Thus, soil, like maggots, becomes an ''information bomb,'' and the dead can be reconstructed (if not resurrected) long after they have disappeared physically.

(Warning: the article is graphic)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...0A35751C1A9669C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

 

[ZsaZsa]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The LIB results pertained to the air sample, right?? I found this old article about the Body Farm research/testing and wondered if testing had been done on the stain to test for the five fatty acids released in decomp. It speaks of a 'phantom fingerprint on the earth' but the same should hold true if a body decomposed in a trunk.



(Warning: the article is graphic)

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...0A35751C1A9669C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

GREAT article. Hope he is one of the State's experts in this trial.

 

[lorelai4]

Great point. But, would George have left Tony's fly-infested trash bag in the Pontiac trunk?

He didn't. LE retrieved it from the dumpster at Amscot.

 

[treeseeker]

Link to LIBS test:
http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/1024/17794795.pdf

LIBS was done on the surface of the trunk liner. It tests for inorganic compounds actually on the the liner. The air test was done on vapors released from the trunk liner after it was closed up in a bag.

Dr. Vass mentioned to YM in an email he detected pinene and limonene in the air samples. He asked about any swampy areas. I'm thinking more along the lines of orange cleaner. It contains limonene, a powerful degreaser. Given that VFAs are fatty acids, orange cleaner would dissolve them. Would it eliminate them? not sure.

IMO on the orange cleaner

 

[treeseeker]

Baquacil's basic ingredient is biguanide. It isn't cytotoxic, meaning it doesn't damage human cells or DNA.

There are several reports that Baquacil can cause algae and mold overgrowth in pools, which can cause a slime.

If Caylee was drowned in the pool, and the As pool was experiencing a Baquacil-induced overgrowth, the water IMO could possibly form an outline of her body on the trunk liner. I'd be very interesting in seeing any testing done for mold/algae residues in the trunk, and for the As pool.

I kinda sorta see the outline, and I'm bad at internet viewing - so I tend to believe those who say they do. I agree with a poll, that would be helpful.

 

[Harmony 2]

Link to LIBS test:
http://www.wftv.com/download/2008/1024/17794795.pdf

LIBS was done on the surface of the trunk liner. It tests for inorganic compounds actually on the the liner. The air test was done on vapors released from the trunk liner after it was closed up in a bag.

Dr. Vass mentioned to YM in an email he detected pinene and limonene in the air samples. He asked about any swampy areas. I'm thinking more along the lines of orange cleaner. It contains limonene, a powerful degreaser. Given that VFAs are fatty acids, orange cleaner would dissolve them. Would it eliminate them? not sure.

IMO on the orange cleaner

Thank you so much for posting the link to that. I want to read it again and you saved me the time looking for it. Presently I need to work on a homecoming mum for my daughter but will definitely delve into it when I accomplish that.

 

[sumbunny]

Interesting article..thank you. So bodies do decompose faster in a trunk then out in the elements. I thought that was the case. Out in the elements the body can decompose in a mere 2 weeks, and in a trunk, much faster. *shudders* Poor caylee.

 

[sumbunny]

I think bodies turn into skeletons faster when they are outside where plants, animals and insects can do their thing. A body that is sealed up in an airtight place like KC's car trunk decomposes more goopily...in the worst possible smelling way. I used to know one of Kansas City's autopsy assistants. Her husband worked homicide. They were a fun couple, We'd boil sausage, onion, potatoes and cabbage, drink, relax and hear about their day,

I was thinking about her this morning and some things she told me about other cases and I'm changing my mind about how Caylee died. I didn't think KC'd go so far as to put Caylee in the trunk alive. But, now I'm think that is exacly what she did. The way Caylee lay in the trunk, it tells a story just like the duct tape. I take back everything I said before, I think Caylee was killed in the car trunk so Casey wouldn't have to get messy.

Apparently not...according to the link supplied above Bodies decompose faster in the trunk

 

[watcher9]

According to the first chapter of DF's book as shown on today's news,
The men saw an imperfectly round, basketball-sized stain in the middle of the trunk.

Did the shape of the stain change from the viewing at the wrecker lot to when the LE checked it???

 

[Hot Dogs]

The actual image is of course much much clearer and of better quality than what the public has to review. I have enhanced the picture with different effects and rotated for better analysis of the stain.

We have no idea if this is the photo of the trunk liner which the FBI tech is talking about. It's an assumption. There must be more photos of the trunk with the liner intact (as we see here) as well as photos of the liner after it has been removed from the trunk. My understanding is that the liner is in sections.

I think people are seeing natural contrast and shading in a "noisy" black and white image which is already numerous copies beyond original. If people think that the "fetal position" stain must be in this photo because this must be the photo that the tech saw - then a big problem can arise. You will search for the stain and experience pareidolia.

Link to article.

 

[wenwe4]

According to the first chapter of DF's book as shown on today's news,
The men saw an imperfectly round, basketball-sized stain in the middle of the trunk.

Did the shape of the stain change from the viewing at the wrecker lot to when the LE checked it???

No the Orange Co. police asked FBI to examine for DNA. (see the b/w pic that Hotdogs posted above) is the actual pic mentioned on handwritten pg 8876 of latest doc dump. This is where they are referring to seeing the stain under an ALS (alternative light source) and the shadows/light you see are the parts that are lighting up under the ALS.

 

[watcher9]

No the Orange Co. police asked FBI to examine for DNA. (see the b/w pic that Hotdogs posted above) is the actual pic mentioned on handwritten pg 8876 of latest doc dump. This is where they are referring to seeing the stain under an ALS (alternative light source) and the shadows/light you see are the parts that are lighting up under the ALS.

I guess what I was trying to say is GA and the lot manager originally saw a basketball shaped stain in the middle of the trunk, which I was thinking would be more plate size. Then later the ALS test showed a stain that could be imagined as a child in a fetal position, which sounds a lot bigger than a plate. If the shape changed or grew in size, would it have been possibly by cleaning the trunk?

More proof of tampering with evidence by the A's.....

 

[wenwe4]

I guess what I was trying to say is GA and the lot manager originally saw a basketball shaped stain in the middle of the trunk, which I was thinking would be more plate size. Then later the ALS test showed a stain that could be imagined as a child in a fetal position, which sounds a lot bigger than a plate. If the shape changed or grew in size, would it have been possibly by cleaning the trunk?

I suppose the shape could have changed or grown in size by cleaning (fluids bleeding out like ink) - but I also think with cleaning the ALS could pick up the cleaning solvents as well. I know that bleach will show up under a black light, as will urine and semen. Really the issue here probably is what was visible to the naked eye vs. what is seen under ALS.