State rests rebuttal case- thread #163

[LotusPawprint]

Hey everyone -- Sorry for the O/T post, but we have a fellow WS'er whose mother just went missing out of Phoenix. She is asking for help and if anyone wants to check out her thread in the missing forum, here it is:

AZ AZ - Della Tadeo, 61, Phoenix, 25 April 2013 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


thanks & see you guys for Juan's closing arguments

Lotus

 

[ElleElle]

That is awesome! Thanks for posting. :rocker:

We need an elephant driving the bus thought.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Nonsense. Otherwise no one would be able to use organs after death. They could kill the offender in a way conducive to organ donation. Pretty simple.

When organs are harvested currently it is because of brain death- the body is still alive because the heart is beating- breathing is accomplished by ventilator, the heart and blood pressure are supported with drugs. Once the organs are taken, then the ventilator, drugs and IV fluids are all discontinued.

If a prisoner is injected with lethal drugs, they are rendered unconscious by anesthetic drugs, then muscle paralyzing agents are injected, which paralyze all muscle including those of respiration. Shortly after, the heart stops beating.
Once that sequence has been completed and death pronounced, you cannot then go back in time and harvest the organs, some of which take considerable time and delicacy to remove. Once circulation has stopped
none of the vital organs are perfused with blood, they die- they have to be 'alive' when taken.

 

[Truth Detector]

someone posted earlier there was a rumor TAPS was being filmed at Travis' Mesa home.

No idea...

 

[Wescott]

BBM~ Jodi is her granddaughter. I don't have children nor will I ever, but would a mother/grandmother/sibling would stand by a loved one not matter what?

I think grandma believes Jodi was a victim of DV.

Yes. Hate the crime, love the child. There are many of us mom's who stand by our child. Does not mean we support what they did.

IMO grandma knows exactly how it is.

 

[josie1986]

One last time, the post in question: “Wouldn't it be nice if they could harvest her organs before putting her to death? Giving someone who is good and kind a much needed extension of life? Those organs could do a lot of good.”

It speaks for itself. And, so do the comments that came out in full support of this idea. It wasn't ambiguous, and can't be made into something ambiguous after the fact.

It is of some comfort to me that quite a few posters expressed, instead, shock, outrage and moral disgust at the idea.

If anybody wants to disagree, please, be fair and accurate about who said what.

i still don't see how giving someone the chance of life is crude,im sure the OP didn't mean take her organs while she is alive therefore causing her death.

would you refuse an organ to save your life or your childs life because it came from someone who was in prison? i know i wouldn't and this is why we don't know who the donors are.

i'll leave it at that and say no more

 

[Horace Finklestein]

When organs are harvested currently it is because of brain death- the body is still alive because the heart is beating- breathing is accomplished by ventilator, the heart and blood pressure are supported with drugs. Once the organs are taken, then the ventilator, drugs and IV fluids are all discontinued.

If a prisoner is injected with lethal drugs, they are rendered unconscious be anesthetic drugs, then muscle paralyzing agents are injected, which paralyze all muscle including those of respiration. Shortly after, the heart stops beating.
Once that sequence has been completed and death pronounced, you cannot then go back in time and harvest the organs, some of which take considerable time and delicacy to remove. Once circulation has stopped
none of the vital organs are perfused with blood, they die- they have to be 'alive' when taken.

Did you read my post? I said they could do it in a way conducive to organ harvesting. If that precludes lethal injection, so be it. It is certainly possible to find another way.

 

[TorisMom003]

I have a very hard time feeling any sympathy for Dan Freeman. He may say now that he was "used" by the defense team but he was deposed and knew where they would go with the questions he was asked during that question time. The defense and the state would not put someone on the stand without deposing them first to see what they know and if they have any information that may be useful. It sounds to me as if Dan now has some sort of buyers remorse. Perhaps he should have considered all of the options back in 2010 when he first had contact with the defense team.

MOO

And on another note, can we please either drop the organ transplant talk or at least take it to the proper thread (if there is one) for it? Please and thank you/

 

[ElleElle]

ITA~ My 16 year old cousin was in a skiing accident and was brain dead for a week before taking her off life support.

They were able to get her liver and donate it to save another life.

You can be brain dead, and alive.
But you can't be "heart dead" and alive.

When organs are harvested currently it is because of brain death- the body is still alive because the heart is beating- breathing is accomplished by ventilator, the heart and blood pressure are supported with drugs. Once the organs are taken, then the ventilator, drugs and IV fluids are all discontinued.

If a prisoner is injected with lethal drugs, they are rendered unconscious be anesthetic drugs, then muscle paralyzing agents are injected, which paralyze all muscle including those of respiration. Shortly after, the heart stops beating.
Once that sequence has been completed and death pronounced, you cannot then go back in time and harvest the organs, some of which take considerable time and delicacy to remove. Once circulation has stopped
none of the vital organs are perfused with blood, they die- they have to be 'alive' when taken.

 

[MidwestMama]

Why would you be against prisoner organ donations?

A couple of my concerns are health issues, which could be taken care of by careful screening, but then that prisoner would have to be segregated from all others until the time of donation, so they don't contract anything in between testing and donation. It COULD be done, but seems the cost and effort would be prohibitive. The prison population, unfortunately, has a very high rate of some diseases that would prohibit donation, esp Hepatitis C and they would have to be VERY careful in who was allowed to donate, lest they give the person receiving the organ even further complications.

Another is the prison environments possible affect on donation. Having had a relative in prison, it is VERY clear that there is definitely an environment of "if a prisoner does this, the guards will do that". Unfortunately, if a prisoner believes donating may make their stay better, they may be unduly influenced to donate after death. Some can say that will not/ cannot happen, but I know this situation is happening over much less issues than organ donation.

There are those that are afraid that jurors would be more likely to give DP if they knew the prisoner would be donating organs upon death. I don't really believe that line of thinking, as taking a life is a weighty decision and them donating organs upon death would not lessen that weight for me.

No matter what happens with prisoner organ donation, I don't think it will EVER be okay to harvest organs on those who have not willing and fully agreed and I don't believe anyone else here on this forum is suggesting that.

I am not close minded on the discussion, but where I am right now is that the possible negatives make it unworkable with legal and ethical boundaries.

 

[Allyne Smithe]

The shoeprints could be from when the roommates came in?

I could be mistaken but didn't they go through the closet, as Detective Flores did? Anyway, the roommates were guys and all the shoeprints I've seen (or imagined) have been a woman's shoe.

I've been looking at this way too long. Apologies for any errors.

 

[Kensie]

Thurston your post several pages back was awesome. Your post and the autopsy pictures could be Juan's closing arguments. Your post brought tears to my eyes but summed things up perfectly. Thank you.

 

[DebinGA]

BBM~ Jodi is her granddaughter. I don't have children nor will I ever, but would a mother/grandmother/sibling would stand by a loved one not matter what?

I think grandma believes Jodi was a victim of DV.

When Jodi left home at 17, iirc she moved into Bobby J's grandma's house, not hers. For all we know, Sandy begged a reluctant grandma to temporarily take her in post-murder, and she knows all too well the evil Jodi is capable of. Grandma may be in court supporting Sandy, but not Jodi. The DV ribbon she's wearing may be in recognition of all the times Jodi has abused her mother.

 

[RR0004]

Ya know what, this whole organ donation stuff would be a great convo when the time comes and the State puts JA to death.
But, now...it kinda makes me nauseous. lol

 

[TorisMom003]

Speaking of the moving hand having writ, Arias proffered forged writings to the court when she was representing herself. These "letters" were supposed evidence of Travis's pedophilia issues and a fraud upon the court. If she is brazen & crooked enough to try that, why would anyone believe her testimony under oath?

Unfortunately the jury has no idea about those "letters". The jury does however know that Jodi has lied under oath and lied directly to them when they asked her questions. I do not see a repeat of that Florida horror show happening this time around.

 

[Emmi]

i still don't see how giving someone the chance of life is crude,im sure the OP didn't mean take her organs while she is alive therefore causing her death.

would you refuse an organ to save your life or your childs life because it came from someone who was in prison? i know i wouldn't and this is why we don't know who the donors are.

i'll leave it at that and say no more

Before death = still alive. Correct me if I'm wrong.

The argument is not about the utility and goodness of organ donation. That's a red herring.

 

[TartLemon]

Since only a Dr can administer the execution drugs, what's the difference if they removed the viable heart and other organs instead?

 

[RR0004]

When Jodi left home at 17, iirc she moved into Bobby J's grandma's house, not hers. For all we know, Sandy begged a reluctant grandma to temporarily take her in post-murder, and she knows all too well the evil Jodi is capable of. Grandma may be in court supporting Sandy, but not Jodi. The DV ribbon she's wearing may be in recognition of all the times Jodi has abused her mother.

I hate the fact that the DT pinned a ribbon on grandma and rolled her in to gain sympathy for their client...'cause IMHO, that's all it meant.

 

[TorisMom003]

When Jodi left home at 17, iirc she moved into Bobby J's grandma's house, not hers. For all we know, Sandy begged a reluctant grandma to temporarily take her in post-murder, and she knows all too well the evil Jodi is capable of. Grandma may be in court supporting Sandy, but not Jodi. The DV ribbon she's wearing may be in recognition of all the times Jodi has abused her mother.

Jodi was living with Grandma and Grandpa in Yreka BEFORE the murder. Recall the "break in" and that Jodi told LE that her laptop was not taken from her room because it was in the laundry basket.

 

[Angelina Frost]

IMO, this Dr is there more to redeem Dr Samuels and ALV.

Which is why (imo), Judge Stephens has truly messed up granting the DT a surrebuttal. Whether or not the murderer has BPD, PTSD, ASPD or any other disorder, it doesn't change three things:

1) she knew right from wrong

2) she committed premeditated, first-degree murder

3) she has clear motivation to continue to lie and has taken repeated, calculated steps to cover her *** to avoid consequences

The DT is in panic mode to save her life and has no other recourse than to drag out the trial. We have lost THREE jurors already, and I have no faith that the Judge's timeline will come to pass. If Nurmi does the direct, this could drag on for days. Will the Judge put her foot down? Don't trust it...