Steve Thomas's Theory/Murder Timeline

[midwestphd]

I just re-read Steve Thomas's theory of the crime and despite my belief in the possibility that BR inflicted head bash and parents committed/staged murder, Thomas's PDI theory is the most consistent, rational theory out there based on the available evidence.

But there is one part of Thomas's timeline that confuses me. In his theory, JBR awakens after wetting the bed. His theory does not seem to be clear in terms of whether he believes PR was in bed at this point. He later says that he believes PR never went to bed that night--that she was in the same clothes and makeup as the previous night because she never changed clothes.

If this is true, where was she between the time the kids and JR went to bed and the time JBR woke up?

Also, is there any evidence that JR and PR ever slept in separate beds? This would help explain if JR woke to find her not in bed and thought nothing of it.

To me, these are the only real hurdles in ST's theory. What physical evidence there is points to Patsy.

 

[Nom de plume]

I just re-read Steve Thomas's theory of the crime and despite my belief in the possibility that BR inflicted head bash and parents committed/staged murder, Thomas's PDI theory is the most consistent, rational theory out there based on the available evidence.

But there is one part of Thomas's timeline that confuses me. In his theory, JBR awakens after wetting the bed. His theory does not seem to be clear in terms of whether he believes PR was in bed at this point. He later says that he believes PR never went to bed that night--that she was in the same clothes and makeup as the previous night because she never changed clothes.

If this is true, where was she between the time the kids and JR went to bed and the time JBR woke up?

Also, is there any evidence that JR and PR ever slept in separate beds? This would help explain if JR woke to find her not in bed and thought nothing of it.

To me, these are the only real hurdles in ST's theory. What physical evidence there is points to Patsy.

BBM The head bash was said to be sufficient to "fell a 300 lb man". I still don't think BR had that kind of strength.

I would think that PR was busy doing last minute packing for the trip. I've never heard of them sleeping in seperate beds except when P was sick with cancer. It does seem as though Patsy never went to bed that night. Yes, the physical evidence does point to Patsy, but as MM just pointed out, JR could have set her up. Not totally convinced yet, but can't dismiss it either.

 

[SyraKelly]

BBM The head bash was said to be sufficient to "fell a 300 lb man". I still don't think BR had that kind of strength.

I would think that PR was busy doing last minute packing for the trip. I've never heard of them sleeping in seperate beds except when P was sick with cancer. It does seem as though Patsy never went to bed that night. Yes, the physical evidence does point to Patsy, but as MM just pointed out, JR could have set her up. Not totally convinced yet, but can't dismiss it either.

:seeya:Nom de plume-can you tell me who said the bolded part?Thank you

 

[UKGuy]

I just re-read Steve Thomas's theory of the crime and despite my belief in the possibility that BR inflicted head bash and parents committed/staged murder, Thomas's PDI theory is the most consistent, rational theory out there based on the available evidence.

But there is one part of Thomas's timeline that confuses me. In his theory, JBR awakens after wetting the bed. His theory does not seem to be clear in terms of whether he believes PR was in bed at this point. He later says that he believes PR never went to bed that night--that she was in the same clothes and makeup as the previous night because she never changed clothes.

If this is true, where was she between the time the kids and JR went to bed and the time JBR woke up?

Also, is there any evidence that JR and PR ever slept in separate beds? This would help explain if JR woke to find her not in bed and thought nothing of it.

To me, these are the only real hurdles in ST's theory. What physical evidence there is points to Patsy.

midwestphd,
Well thats the catch, does Steve Thomas offer all the evidence or just enough to justify a belief in PDI?

If you read the relevant chapters, where the forensic evidence is summarised and discussed and the predominately male officers are given a lecture on female anatomy along with pictures of JonBenet's genital region contrasted with that of someone of similar age free from injury.

Patently an incest theory was discussed along with JonBenet's internal injuries, but this was neither presented or developed in Steve Thomas' book, this and the eventual reference to JonBenet's injuries as Vaginal Trauma, moves away from an incest theory.

I reckon Steve Thomas wrote his book constrained by the knowledge, if he told it as he saw it, then the Ramsey Legal Team would litigate, so he moderated his theory, but dropped hints here and there.

.

 

[Nom de plume]

:seeya:Nom de plume-can you tell me who said the bolded part?Thank you

I know I've read it other places but the only one I can find on short notice is from Doc Miller's book:

The autopsy reports an eight and one-half inch long fracture from the top of JonBenet's head downward and back behind her right ear: a blow sufficient to have felled a 300 pound man.

 

[dodie20]

I just re-read Steve Thomas's theory of the crime and despite my belief in the possibility that BR inflicted head bash and parents committed/staged murder, Thomas's PDI theory is the most consistent, rational theory out there based on the available evidence.

But there is one part of Thomas's timeline that confuses me. In his theory, JBR awakens after wetting the bed. His theory does not seem to be clear in terms of whether he believes PR was in bed at this point. He later says that he believes PR never went to bed that night--that she was in the same clothes and makeup as the previous night because she never changed clothes.

If this is true, where was she between the time the kids and JR went to bed and the time JBR woke up?

Also, is there any evidence that JR and PR ever slept in separate beds? This would help explain if JR woke to find her not in bed and thought nothing of it.

To me, these are the only real hurdles in ST's theory. What physical evidence there is points to Patsy.

There has been a lot of controversy about who did what before going to bed, (of course. what else is new?) It has been reported that JB was already asleep when they arrived home, BR said she was awake and walked into the house, JR, (if I'm not mistaken), said at one point, that he read her a bedtime story, in addition to playing with a new Christmas toy with BR...which has its own controversy, because more than 1 toy was reported. Also, (again if I remember correctly), I read that PR was the last to see JB, but I also read that JR admitted to being the last one. And I think I read both of these versions in police reports. And then we have the pineapple and tea with PR and BR's prints, but no JB's, even though partially digested pineapple was discovered in her autopsy. According to PR and JR, JB wasn't awake to eat pineapple, and no pineapple was eaten by anybody! JR's ramblings on this subject were especially weird. Anyway, regardless of any theory, I'm not sure anybody went to bed that night...except for BR, who according to the Rs, slept through the whole thing, but no oops, this is another multi varied story, because JR later admitted, (about 4 years later, I believe), that BR was actually awake, at least during the 911, but was pretending to sleep. moo

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

There has been a lot of controversy about who did what before going to bed, (of course. what else is new?) It has been reported that JB was already asleep when they arrived home, BR said she was awake and walked into the house, JR, (if I'm not mistaken), said at one point, that he read her a bedtime story, in addition to playing with a new Christmas toy with BR...which has its own controversy, because more than 1 toy was reported. Also, (again if I remember correctly), I read that PR was the last to see JB, but I also read that JR admitted to being the last one. And I think I read both of these versions in police reports. And then we have the pineapple and tea with PR and BR's prints, but no JB's, even though partially digested pineapple was discovered in her autopsy. According to PR and JR, JB wasn't awake to eat pineapple, and no pineapple was eaten by anybody! JR's ramblings on this subject were especially weird. Anyway, regardless of any theory, I'm not sure anybody went to bed that night...except for BR, who according to the Rs, slept through the whole thing, but no oops, this is another multi varied story, because JR later admitted, (about 4 years later, I believe), that BR was actually awake, at least during the 911, but was pretending to sleep. moo

It is entirely possible that JonBenet was given a pineapple treat by a female intruder who was trying to calm the little girl down while she and her psycho male accomplice held JonBenet captive in the basement and mulled over what they should do with her since she could identify them to police. In case you're wondering, this would be the same female intruder that wrote the ransom note.

 

[wonderllama]

That sounds a bit Hollywood.

 

[CharlieBrown]

It is entirely possible that JonBenet was given a pineapple treat by a female intruder who was trying to calm the little girl down while she and her psycho male accomplice held JonBenet captive in the basement

Two nut jobs grab me out of my bed in the middle of the night and proceed to hold me against my will in the basement of my own home, and one of them kindly offers me some pineapple (which I accept and eat, rather than screaming in terror while my mouth is free to move) to help calm me down.

I hope you see how absolutely ridiculous that sounds.

 

[wonderllama]

Two nut jobs grab me out of my bed in the middle of the night and proceed to hold me against my will in the basement of my own home, and one of them kindly offers me some pineapple (which I accept and eat, rather than screaming in terror while my mouth is free to move) to help calm me down.

I hope you see how absolutely ridiculous that sounds.

As I said, it smacks of "writer's hand".
Doesn't sound like a real scenario at all, it sounds like what someone THINKS is a real scenario cos they saw it on a TV show....which someone made up, cos they were too lazy to find out that this NEVER happens. Anywhere. Ever.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Two nut jobs grab me out of my bed in the middle of the night and proceed to hold me against my will in the basement of my own home, and one of them kindly offers me some pineapple (which I accept and eat, rather than screaming in terror while my mouth is free to move) to help calm me down.

I hope you see how absolutely ridiculous that sounds.

What if you know them? And they are not being nasty but have told you something that is keeping you quiet? Your parents are dead, Or they will kill your parents?? They have burke somewhere?

Im not saying I agree with the theory but, I can come up with reasons for it to work. The pineapple I don't get. I still have not figured that out so this at least is a reason for it to be there. Maybe the thought was to lace it with something to make her sleep??

yes I know, I just won an oscar..

 

[Magdalyn]

midwestphd,
Well thats the catch, does Steve Thomas offer all the evidence or just enough to justify a belief in PDI?

If you read the relevant chapters, where the forensic evidence is summarised and discussed and the predominately male officers are given a lecture on female anatomy along with pictures of JonBenet's genital region contrasted with that of someone of similar age free from injury.

Patently an incest theory was discussed along with JonBenet's internal injuries, but this was neither presented or developed in Steve Thomas' book, this and the eventual reference to JonBenet's injuries as Vaginal Trauma, moves away from an incest theory.
I reckon Steve Thomas wrote his book constrained by the knowledge, if he told it as he saw it, then the Ramsey Legal Team would litigate, so he moderated his theory, but dropped hints here and there.

.

Respectfully BBM

I thought this too, but he does mention, IIRC, he thinks the molestation was done as corporal punishment. Giving that some thought, I considered what if everytime Jonbenet is soiling herself, mama is going all Mommy Dearest on her in the bath...and is scrubbing at her filthy dirty parts, using a washcloth and her fingers to clean her (sorry, sorry, sorry) from the inside out.

That would certainly account for the UTIs, Vaginitis, scarring, etc. It could also explain the damage inflicted the night of her death considering the urine found, the diapers hanging out of the cabinet, etc.

Someone, I think grandma, mentioned Jonbenet disliked toilet paper/wiping herself. Well, yeah, she was chronically tender/inflamed and, according to the number of UTIs and vaginitis diagnoses, going to the potty very likely miserable most of the time.

IMO, Patsy wouldn't think a ruthless scrubbing was sexual at all. But it would be sexual abuse. And the pediatrician didn't notice because, IIRC, he never examined her vaginally.

And yeah, I can see Patsy the only one still up, packing, Jonbenet wakes up wet, Patsy thinks "Just ONE more thing to do, thank you very much Jonbenet!"

Giving JB a midnight bath doesn't disturb JR or Burke, perhaps because this routine happens often?

If that's what ST's thinking, the theory works pretty well. She never once had time to get out of her Christmas party clothes...she had an event filled evening.

ETA: For those who've not suffered a UTI or vaginitis, both can cause intense burning with urination.

 

[dodie20]

It is entirely possible that JonBenet was given a pineapple treat by a female intruder who was trying to calm the little girl down while she and her psycho male accomplice held JonBenet captive in the basement and mulled over what they should do with her since she could identify them to police. In case you're wondering, this would be the same female intruder that wrote the ransom note.

yes, it's possible, I'll admit that because anything is possible, but there's really only 1 scenario where I might believe the intruder theory. 1st of all, this intruder would have to be 1 lucky son of a gun, to pick a house where the family had so many secrets to cover up. Say there was a botched robbery and for some reason, JB was killed. Heck, maybe they broke in while JB was eating pineapple and out of shock and fear she was bashed. Once they realized she would die, they finished her off. But what then? Did PR find JB and stage the rest? stage the rape to cover prior abuse, (because prior abuse was found), and then write the note to point to kidnappers, instead of a botched burglary? because she didn't want cops to find the body? but if she didn't want cops to find the body, why bother staging a rape? (which is actually 1 of those points that I can't figure out, no matter what the theory), Actually, there is too much evidence that points to PR's involvement for me to seriously consider that she didn't know a thing until she woke up and found the note, so any intruder theory, IMO, would have to involve her somehow. MOO.

 

[Whaleshark]

It is entirely possible that JonBenet was given a pineapple treat by a female intruder who was trying to calm the little girl down while she and her psycho male accomplice held JonBenet captive in the basement and mulled over what they should do with her since she could identify them to police. In case you're wondering, this would be the same female intruder that wrote the ransom note.

Even John Ramsey testified that there was no way that JonBenet would have gone with a stranger willingly. At all. He said she would have kicked and screamed and fought... She was a sparkplug, he often said. Along with the pineapple, he admitted that it was a big bugaboo, and therefore the intruder had to be someone she knew.

Shall I repeat: John Ramsey said that the intruder had to be someone that JonBenet knew because he said that there was no way she would have gone with a stranger willingly.

Now follow me here, because this is extremely important. This is why the pineapple is so important. The timeline of the pineapple digestion in her stomach proves that she was awake during that time. And John even asks if it was something that could be figured out - the rate of digestion... And if so, he concedes that is a 'big bugaboo' per Lou Smit's words... Because based on the digestion timeline of the pineapple in her stomach, it was eaten by her that night after the time she was supposed to have gone to bed, but before being killed...

And That means she was awake. If awake, John admitted there was no way she would have gone with a stranger without putting up a fight, nor would she have calmly eaten pineapple with them, and said based on that knowledge- of the pineapple in her stomach based on that timeline, that he believed she HAD to know who the intruder was in order for her to go willingly with him and eat the pineapple at that time.

In testimony, John said that JonBenet HAD to know the intruder in order to account for the pineapple.

I'll let that DIGEST with everyone for a while.... As most people seem to forget the significance of this.

 

[DeeDee249]

It is entirely possible that JonBenet was given a pineapple treat by a female intruder who was trying to calm the little girl down while she and her psycho male accomplice held JonBenet captive in the basement and mulled over what they should do with her since she could identify them to police. In case you're wondering, this would be the same female intruder that wrote the ransom note.

That would be Patsy.

 

[redheadedgal]

:seeya:Nom de plume-can you tell me who said the bolded part?Thank you

a quick google says lin wood made the assertion on LKL in april 2000... is he repeating what someone else said? i don't know...

(about 3/4 of the way down the interview)

And here's a very significant point, Larry. This child's skull was crushed. She suffered a 8 1/2 inch displaced fracture of the right side of her skull. Now, Patsy Ramsey didn't accidentally push a child into the bathtub edge. If his (ST) theory holds water, which it doesn't, Patsy Ramsey would have had to pick up her 45-pound daughter and swing her like a sledgehammer to crush her skull like this. This was a blow that would fall a 300-pound man.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0004/14/lkl.00.html

 

[SyraKelly]

a quick google says lin wood made the assertion on LKL in april 2000... is he repeating what someone else said? i don't know...

(about 3/4 of the way down the interview)

And here's a very significant point, Larry. This child's skull was crushed. She suffered a 8 1/2 inch displaced fracture of the right side of her skull. Now, Patsy Ramsey didn't accidentally push a child into the bathtub edge. If his (ST) theory holds water, which it doesn't, Patsy Ramsey would have had to pick up her 45-pound daughter and swing her like a sledgehammer to crush her skull like this. This was a blow that would fall a 300-pound man.


http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0004/14/lkl.00.html

:seeya:Thanks Red.

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

Two nut jobs grab me out of my bed in the middle of the night and proceed to hold me against my will in the basement of my own home, and one of them kindly offers me some pineapple (which I accept and eat, rather than screaming in terror while my mouth is free to move) to help calm me down.

I hope you see how absolutely ridiculous that sounds.

Who said anything about JonBenet being grabbed out her bed? The likely scenario is that she heard the intruders fumbling about downstairs, thought it was Santa Claus returning to pay her a special visit, and bounded down the steps by her own volition where she discovered the intruders, one of whom she knew and liked, and believed she could trust. Albeit, it is likely that the male intruder was someone whom she did not know and she was likely fearful of him. Thus, the female intruder might have found it necessary to allay her fears by offering her a treat of pineapple.

This is certainly a lot less ridiculous a theory than the idea that her own mother, who was never known to be physically abusive to her children, suddenly flew into a blind rage on Christmas Night, smashed in her skull with crowbar and then garroted her at approximately the same time, all because she wet the bed.

 

[Edmond.DantesIII]

Even John Ramsey testified that there was no way that JonBenet would have gone with a stranger willingly.

Who ever said that both intruders were necessarily strangers? Indeed, it appears that at least one of them may have a had a key to the Ramsey residence, knew the approximate figure of JR's bonus, knew her way around the Ramsey residence, and had heard that the Ramseys were vacationing in Michigan over the Christmas holidays. Therefore, at least one of the intruders may not have been a stranger at all. She might have been someone that JonBenet knew and believed she could trust.

 

[wonderllama]

Who said anything about JonBenet being grabbed out her bed? The likely scenario is that she heard the intruders fumbling about downstairs, thought it was Santa Claus returning to pay her a special visit, and bounded down the steps by her own volition where she discovered the intruders, one of whom she knew and liked, and believed she could trust. Albeit, it is likely that the male intruder was someone whom she did not know and she was likely fearful of him. Thus, the female intruder might have found it necessary to allay her fears by offering her a treat of pineapple.

This is certainly a lot less ridiculous a theory than the idea that her own mother, who was never known to be physically abusive to her children, suddenly flew into a blind rage on Christmas Night, smashed in her skull with crowbar and then garroted her at approximately the same time, all because she wet the bed.

Well, that's assuming you accept the wet the bed scenario.
And since when did IDI folks suddenly have to start talking about there being more than one intruder? Oh that's right, when it was established that there was touch DNA from 5 different people...now I remember.