Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder?

[Sustained]

Taking pot shots at Kratz is fair game, but stop with the disingenuous platitudes regarding the perceived emotional reactions by the Halbach family. The Halbach's publicly praised the prosecutors/investigators for the manner in which they collected and presented their "bs." That "bs" includes a laundry list of inculpatory evidence that was strong enough to convict Steven Avery of 1st degree murder. This evidence has stood the test of time as evidenced by the recent statements by Avery's new attorney.

Zellner has a penchant for talking trash and she fashions herself as a modern day Clarence Darrow. The problem she faces is that the burden of proof is on her and that burden is a daunting one. In order for her client to obtain relief or a new trial, she has to present new evidence that would result in no reasonable fact finder or juror finding her client guilty of murder. Her initial strategy doesn't appear to come close to meeting that burden. Rather than seeking new EDTA testing, she is seeking new Luminal testing for Avery's trailer and garage.

In 2006, Luminal tests in Avery's garage resulted in a 3-4 foot area glowing brightly due to a reaction to bleach. The relevance of this test result has been presented several times on this thread. Considering that the prosecution has already admitted that Luminal testing didn't find any of Halbach's blood in the Avery's garage/residence, how is new Luminal testing going to result in Avery receiving a new trial? At best, new Luminal testing is merely going to confirm the prosecution's position at trial. If this testing is to take place, it could backfire on Zellner, for it could detect the presence of Halbach's blood in Avery's garage and/or trailer.

BBM

Do you honestly think Zellner is going to reveal her entire strategy to the general public ? I'm sure reanalyzing the Luminol test is just a piece of her plan. Zellner gets results so I'm willing to wait and see what she's got ...

And I'm sure that most folks would've said KZ had no chance of getting Ryan Ferguson or Mario Casciaro out of jail either when she first started on their cases.

 

[Miranda]

IMO this was a botched investigation and I don't think that all of the evidence submitted was legit. I do believe however that there is plenty of legitimate evidence that clearly proves Avery's guilt. Our own poll shows that almost 40% of people on here believe there should be a new trial. Half a million people have signed a petition in a (lame) effort to free Avery. I highly doubt that Halbach's family is at peace with so many people promoting Avery's innocence. In fact they've said exactly that in several interviews.

I think that Avery is a , I also think that everyone has the right to a fair trial.

 

[Madeleine74]

The difference in Ferguson's and Casciaro's cases are there was no forensic evidence linking either guy to the crime that was committed and there was circumstantial evidence linking someone else to both crimes. In Ferguson's case he never saw the victim, didn't know him, and it was false eye witness testimony and a false confession by Erickson that got Ferguson convicted. In Casciaro's case the DNA at the actual scene matched one of the other stock boys.

In SA's case there's no eye witness other than BD seeing TH being harmed, and people don't believe he was there at all, so essentially no eye witness (i.e. direct evidence) other than TH being seen at the property that afternoon. There is circumstantial evidence, the body of the victim was eventually found on SA's property, she and SA are linked in time and space to that afternoon, among other pieces of evidence, circumstantial and forensic.

Very different cases. I believe the SA case is more challenging due to the appellate and supreme courts already receiving briefs and not vacating the conviction. Proving factual innocence is not an easy burden, but that's the burden that has to be met for SA. For BD it's a different story because of his interrogation and his young age and mental challenges.

 

[Madeleine74]

As for a 'fair' trial, the defense did present their side, they did win various legal motions, they did vigorously cross examine state witnesses, they presented their theory of framing/planting as well as tunnel vision to the jury, in no uncertain terms. The jury didn't agree with the defense's theory and they convicted SA. For a conviction to be overturned, there needs to have been at least one legal error made that would have affected the outcome. What was that legal error?

 

[hoshizora]

I'm very interested in what Zellner has to say and if it will be enough to get a re-trial. She seems to think so and knowing her track record, I will be interested in it. I'm also interested to see if the prosecution has gathered more evidence against him.

I don't think he should be exonerated (like BD should, imo) as there is some odd evidence that needs clearing up but a re-trial, definitely.

As I said before, with the success of Making a Murderer however, I feel the jury pool will be even more tainted (most likely with bias towards SA and against the prosecution) so I don't know how to get around that. Maybe a judge only trial?

 

[Murtagh21]

SUSTAINED: As I stated in my post, Zellner's INITIAL strategy...

MIRANDA: In terms of this investigation being "botched," the Halbach family; the original investigators; the Wisconsin DOJ; and the appellate courts do not share your opinion. It's important to note that since the mid 70's, national polls have consistently demonstrated that around 75% of those polled believe that the murder of JFK was the result of a conspiracy. This not only demonstrates the prevelance of the conspiracy mindset in this country, but also speaks to the meaningless nature of non-political polling. The truth cannot be found in polls. The truth is found in documented fact. The facts clearly demonstrate that Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone.

MADELEINE: I agree that Dassey has a better chance at receiving a new trial, but like his uncle, the obstacles to freedom or a new trial are daunting. An important piece of the Dassey puzzle that supporters religiously ignore is the role his cousin played in his eventual conviction. Kayla signed not one, but two statements that inculpated her cousin in this gruesome crime. The Avery Clan got together too late to squelch those statements, but they did succeed in getting Kayla to recant her claims at Dassey's trial. In addition to the discussions between Dassey and his cousin, Kayla also expressed her concerns about Dassey to her school guidance counselor.

 

[Sustained]

MADELEINE: I agree that Dassey has a better chance at receiving a new trial, but like his uncle, the obstacles to freedom or a new trial are daunting. An important piece of the Dassey puzzle that supporters religiously ignore is the role his cousin played in his eventual conviction. Kayla signed not one, but two statements that inculpated her cousin in this gruesome crime. The Avery Clan got together too late to squelch those statements, but they did succeed in getting Kayla to recant her claims at Dassey's trial. In addition to the discussions between Dassey and his cousin, Kayla also expressed her concerns about Dassey to her school guidance counselor.

Since Kayla was interviewed by Wiegart and Fassbender with their propensity for spoon-feeding answers, I would give 0% credibility to anything she said. Where is the transcript of those interviews ? Didn't Kayla say that Brendan had lost 40 lbs ?

 

[Madeleine74]

IF Kayla talked to her guidance counselor at school about her cousin, that's not spoon fed by anyone.

 

[Sustained]

IF Kayla talked to her guidance counselor at school about her cousin, that's not spoon fed by anyone.

Unless you can produce a transcript of that conversation, it's just hearsay.

 

[Madeleine74]

The guidance counselor could tell the tale if it did happen. And notice I used the word "IF" and put it in all caps. I don't make declarative statements when there isn't evidence to corroborate.

 

[missy1974]

Susan Brandt testimony ~ she was an intern (as a counselor) at the high school, she was working with Karen Baumgartner (I don't see that she testified though) I don't see any mention of TH being tied up..... no mention of BD seeing body parts in a fire.... no mention of BD losing weight. She didn't even mention B's name.

4 A She told us that she was scared, urn, because her

5 uncle, Steven Avery, had asked one of her cousins to

6 help move a body.

7 Q All right. What else, if anything, did she tell

8 you about that?

9 A She also said she was scared about going to the shop,

10 urn, and she, specifically, asked if blood can come up

11 through concrete.

12 Q All right. Now, was -- Did she identify which of

13 her cousins may have been asked by her uncle,

14 Steven Avery, to move this body?

15 A No.

 

[Madeleine74]

So there was a conversation between Kayla and someone in the guidance counseling office. And Kayla did mention a body, did say the word blood, did mention a body needing to be moved, was scared, and used the word 'cousin.' Coincidence?

Still think TH was killed by someone who wasn't an Avery and still think TH wasn't killed on the Avery property?

 

[missy1974]

It would be coincidence if the Uncle wasn't arrested MONTHS prior for the murder and it wasn't all over the news.

It doesn't change the fact that what she told the counselors morphed into something different after talking to Wiegert/Fassbender..... and we know how they conduct interviews after seeing BD's.

Why was she scared to go to the shop? SA was in prison.

 

[DexterMorgan]

Susan Brandt testimony ~ she was an intern (as a counselor) at the high school, she was working with Karen Baumgartner (I don't see that she testified though) I don't see any mention of TH being tied up..... no mention of BD seeing body parts in a fire.... no mention of BD losing weight. She didn't even mention B's name.

4 A She told us that she was scared, urn, because her

5 uncle, Steven Avery, had asked one of her cousins to

6 help move a body.

7 Q All right. What else, if anything, did she tell

8 you about that?

9 A She also said she was scared about going to the shop,

10 urn, and she, specifically, asked if blood can come up

11 through concrete.

12 Q All right. Now, was -- Did she identify which of

13 her cousins may have been asked by her uncle,

14 Steven Avery, to move this body?

15 A No.

So is the cousin only guilty of disposing of a corpse ?

 

[missy1974]

Thought I would grab these.... I knew I had read some of her posts on FB, kinda surprised they are still there. These are just a few of many. Of course now, they have been asked by KZ to not really answer any questions on fb or elsewhere.

 

[missy1974]

So is the cousin only guilty of disposing of a corpse ?

honestly.... I don't know what she was saying/doing. I don't think any of us do. Was she worried about someone else on that property? Did she overhear something? (the comment about moving the body actually reminds me of the comment SA made to Bobby's friend Mike, the one they laughed about... about moving a body)
I can't imagine what those kids were going through in those months... SA was all over the news, they went to school and had to deal with that.... or deal with the fact that their Uncle could be a murderer, how were they being treated at school? did they lose friends? was she seeking attention/sympathy? She was 15 at the time.

 

[Sustained]

Susan Brandt testimony ~ she was an intern (as a counselor) at the high school, she was working with Karen Baumgartner (I don't see that she testified though) I don't see any mention of TH being tied up..... no mention of BD seeing body parts in a fire.... no mention of BD losing weight. She didn't even mention B's name.

4 A She told us that she was scared, urn, because her

5 uncle, Steven Avery, had asked one of her cousins to

6 help move a body.

7 Q All right. What else, if anything, did she tell

8 you about that?

9 A She also said she was scared about going to the shop,

10 urn, and she, specifically, asked if blood can come up

11 through concrete.

12 Q All right. Now, was -- Did she identify which of

13 her cousins may have been asked by her uncle,

14 Steven Avery, to move this body?

15 A No.

Quite possibly Kayla was referring to the joking around between SA and BoD and took it the wrong way ?

 

[missy1974]

Quite possibly Kayla was referring to the joking around between SA and BoD and took it the wrong way ?

that was my thought too.

 

[Madeleine74]

I believe Kayla lied on the stand. I believe her family got to her and made sure she changed her story. What joking around is being referred to and when? There was the joking around when the deer was strung up. Kayla was not there in the garage when that occurred.

 

[missy1974]

I believe Kayla lied on the stand. I believe her family got to her and made sure she changed her story. What joking around is being referred to and when? There was the joking around when the deer was strung up. Kayla was not there in the garage when that occurred.

it doesn't mean she didn't hear the story from November 2005-February 2006. Maybe she had just heard that story and her imagination was running wild.

I've seen her comments in the last 2 months on fb. She is sickened at what they (Wiegert/Fassbender... but she points at Wiegert moreso) did to her and her cousin. IMO she got up on that stand and told the truth, that she made it up.