Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder?

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves

Is Steven Avery responsible for the murder of Teresa Halbach?

  • He did it

    Votes: 253 29.7%
  • Some other guy did it

    Votes: 67 7.9%
  • Looks guilty at this point

    Votes: 74 8.7%
  • Not guilty based on evidence I've seen thus far

    Votes: 195 22.9%
  • Undecided, but believe new trial is in order

    Votes: 254 29.8%
  • Undecided all around; more information required

    Votes: 55 6.5%

  • Total voters
    852
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Maybe, but she did go to the school guidance counsel office and there is testimony about that. She definitely lied at some point -- I believe she lied on the stand. She was originally telling the same story as BD, based, she said, on one or more talks she had with BD. Then she backpedaled while on the stand, claiming she 'made it all up,' including the conversations with cousin, BD. That, I believe, is a lie.
 
HELPINGHAND: My two cents on your questions.

CAR KEY: It is possible that the key found in Avery's trailer was a spare. My wife has a huge key ring and she sometimes attaches the spare key to the key ring. Even if Teresa didn't have a spare key, the fact is that Avery's DNA was found on the key. IMO, Avery advocates want it both ways. They argue that law enforcement went through two locked doors at the Clerk's Office, planted Avery's blood in 6 locations inside Teresa's vehicle, but decided NOT to use that blood to plant other pieces of forensic evidence. This includes Avery's Touch DNA being found on the hood of Halbach's vehicle and, of course, Avery's Touch DNA being found on the key.

Colburn's call to dispatch has been proven to be much ado about nothing. It was a gotcha moment created through selective editing by the filmmakers of the Netflix documentary. If the filmmakers had no agenda, they would have included portions of Colburn's testimony that showed the impetus for this call was Detective Weigert giving Colburn permission to run the plates of Teresa's vehicle. In addition, Strang ignored Colburn's claim that he made the call on 11/3/05, and went with his own theory that the call was placed on 11/4/05.

THE BONES: The only concrete conclusions rendered at trial regarding human bone analysis are as follows...

- Dr. Eisenberg was of the opinion that the fire pit in Avery's yard was the main burn pit

- Bones found in that pit contained fragments from every bone in Teresa's body from the neck down

- Three larger bones were found in a burn barrel owned by Avery's sister

- Portions of a tire(s) were used as an accelerant in BOTH the fire pit and a burn barrel located 20 feet from Avery's front door

- Portions of a tire(s) were found entwined with the bone fragments

- Mixed in with the bone fragments were screws, nails, wires, 5 clothing rivets from Teresa's denim jeans, teeth from a zipper, and ammunition/shell casings

- Bevelling in two skull fragments demonstrated that Teresa was shot once in the rear of the head and once in the side of the head

People certainly have the right to engage in fanatasy narratives, but the facts indicate that Teresa's clothing and her body were thrown into the same fire pit where a bonfire was set in the early evening of 10/31/05. Yard debris was thrown on top of Teresa's body and the steel tire belts literally melted around some of the bone fragments. Teresa's palm pilot, cell phone, and digital camera was tossed into a burn barrel in that same area. Teresa's personal belongings were then set on fire in that barrel.

Three larger bones were later placed in a burn barrel located across the road from Avery's residence. After the fire died down, a shovel found in the fire pit may have been used to break up Teresa's bones. IMO, all of this evidence points to Steven Avery as being the lone criminal agent in the DEATH of Teresa Halbach. I don't believe that Brenden Dassey took part in Teresa's murder, but I am convinced that he assisted his uncle in some form or fashion.

BLOOD/DNA: What is left out of the "there is no way they could clean everything" narrative is that Avery/Dassey (e.g., primarily Avery) had 5 days to clean two small areas. Avery's bedroom was extremely small and Teresa's upper body would have taken up a very small area of the garage floor. It's important to note that when Luminal was sprayed in an area close to where the bullet fragment was found, a 3-4 foot portion of that concrete floor glowed brightly. It was determined that the Luminal reacted to bleach on the garage floor. Upon his return home, Dassey's mother asks him how he got bleach on the front of his clothes and Dassey told her that he was helping his uncle clean the garage. Coincidence? I think not.

TERESA'S VEHICLE: You need to look at the pictures taken by Nicole Sturm and the forensics team. The car is obscured by pieces of plywood, tree branches, and a car seat. The license plates were also removed and were later found in another vehicle on the Avery compound. Just another in a long line of facts left out of the Netflix documentary. Avery's blood was not found in two places inside the LOCKED vehicle, but in six locations. Teresa's DNA was found in the back of the vehicle in the form of a bloody transfer stain from her hair. If the "real" perps wanted Avery to take the fall for the murder, why obscure the vehicle? Why not place it in plain sight?

MOTIVE: After Avery was placed in jail, two women came forward stating that Avery had raped them in 2004. The women did not know one another, yet both women stated that he threatened to kill their entire family if they reported the assault to the police. What motivates a sexual sadist to act upon his fantasies? Individuals who commit these heinous crimes are motivated by self-gratification.

HOOD LATCH: It's important to note that INSIDE Teresa's vehicle, there were 8 latent prints that did not have enough distinguishable characteristics to be sourced to a specific individual. Welcome to real world forensics. This isn't television, the movies, or a slanted documentary. There are no "should haves" in the world of forensics. Avery opened the hood of Teresa's vehicle in order to disable it. This effort resulted in his DNA being left on the latch, but not enough to produce distinguishable prints. In terms of the technician not wearing gloves, it would be highly unlikely that he wouldn't have left his own prints on the latch AND magically transfer Avery's skin cells on that same latch.

Colburne's call was all to do about nothing? Do you mind giving me a source for that as that is big?

As of now, I believe an LE official has more motive than Avery. That source could move me off the conspiracy train that I am on.
 
ROY: Please re-read my post. The TOTALITY of Colburn's trial testimony demonstrates the filmmaker's reliance on red herrings and sleight of hand.
 
Issues relating to Dassey and his cousin probably should be discussed on the Dassey thread, but IMO, Kayla's 2016 musings are worthless. Taking shots at Fassbender and Weigert is fodder for the conspiracy-minded, and ignores the fact that Kayla's own words placed her in the same room with these cruel investigators. How dare they follow-up with the information provided to them by Kayla's guidance counselor? What has the world come to when homicide investigators follow-up on tangible leads? If that doesn't turn your stomach, these investigators had the unmitigated gall to rely on their experience/gut instincts whenever they felt that Dassey was not telling the truth.

Rather than do the right thing (e.g., turn off the video camera, yell/scream, and hit Dassey with a phone book), the investigators had the stones to audiotape the first interview, put Dassey and his mother up at a nice motel, and videotape THREE subsequent interviews. The prosecution showed a jury the longest of the THREE unethical videotaped interviews, and for whatever reason, the jury didn't view the interview in the same light as the Netflix filmmakers, a large portion of their audience, and (gasp!) Dassey's defense team. To make matters worse, the appellate courts and the jury shared the same opinion of the videotaped interview.

What is going on? I'm sure that the Halbach family is enraged at the fact that the investigators didn't accept Dassey's initial denials at face value, that the interview wasn't a cursory affair, and that they didn't offer Dassey milk and cookies during or after the interview. If I remove my dripping sarcasm from this post, I will admit that the investigators made some mistakes (e.g., what happened to the head?), but human error should NEVER result in throwing the baby out with the bath water. To my knowledge, there has never been a high profile murder case that didn't contain human error. What I find interesting is how Avery/Dassey advocates engage in logistical backflips to explain inculpatory statements and/or evidence. In Kayla's case, it was a bargain basement example of a large family circling the wagons.
 
Issues relating to Dassey and his cousin probably should be discussed on the Dassey thread, but IMO, Kayla's 2016 musings are worthless. Taking shots at Fassbender and Weigert is fodder for the conspiracy-minded, and ignores the fact that Kayla's own words placed her in the same room with these cruel investigators. How dare they follow-up with the information provided to them by Kayla's guidance counselor? What has the world come to when homicide investigators follow-up on tangible leads? If that doesn't turn your stomach, these investigators had the unmitigated gall to rely on their experience/gut instincts whenever they felt that Dassey was not telling the truth.

So you must equate experience/gut instincts to spoon-feeding crime details to a mentally challenged 16-year-old and getting multiple inconsistent "confessions" ?
 
Agree, Sustained.

( Personally, haven't done a back flip since my 20's )
So you must equate experience/gut instincts to spoon-feeding crime details to a mentally challenged 16-year-old and getting multiple inconsistent "confessions" ?
 
Here is my question.

If you believe he is innocent? Who did it? It would have to be someone who wanted him to look guilty. Someone close enough who would be willing to kill someone to frame him to send him to prison forever? Who was next in line for the money? The girlfriend??
 
No his girlfriend would not be in line. His family would, maybe his parents first, or his children. That presumes they would have continued with the suit all the way to the end. SA settled for $400K, which is not chump change to most people. He was wrongfully convicted of the rape and of his 18 years in prison, he was wrongfully incarcerated for 12 of those 18 years.

Perhaps his family would have settled for $1M, and maybe less. I believe the case would have been settled regardless, as most civil cases are, because they can get stuck in litigation for years and years, with appeals after the first round.
 
No his girlfriend would not be in line. His family would, maybe his parents first, or his children. That presumes they would have continued with the suit all the way to the end. SA settled for $400K, which is not chump change to most people. He was wrongfully convicted of the rape and of his 18 years in prison, he was wrongfully incarcerated for 12 of those 18 years.

Perhaps his family would have settled for $1M, and maybe less. I believe the case would have been settled regardless, as most civil cases are, because they can get stuck in litigation for years and years, with appeals after the first round.

This is my problem.. you either have to believe the cops killed her and set him up or someone else did. His brother? A neighbor? Who would be able to be there and make it so it looked so well that he did it?
 
This is my problem.. you either have to believe the cops killed her and set him up or someone else did. His brother? A neighbor? Who would be able to be there and make it so it looked so well that he did it?
The theories have largely morphed into: someone else killed her and one or more cops came across her body and her SUV and then devised a plan to pin it on Avery by burning her remains and planting those plus SA's old blood, TH's car key, TH's cell, camera, PDA, and a bullet containing TH DNA on his property. They protected the real perp because the cops were afraid their jobs and pensions would go away due to the pending civil lawsuit, and they felt embarrassed after having to testify in a deposition by Avery.
 
The theories have largely morphed into: someone else killed her and one or more cops came across her body and her SUV and then devised a plan to pin it on Avery by burning her remains and planting those plus SA's old blood, TH's car key, TH's cell, camera, PDA, and a bullet containing TH DNA on his property. They protected the real perp because the cops were afraid their jobs and pensions would go away due to the pending civil lawsuit, and they felt embarrassed after having to testify in a deposition by Avery.

Yeah that one does not fly with me.. I don't even find it reasonable..

There has to be a real working theory that makes sense.. And I cannot find one.

Someone that hated him enough to do this to him? Someone who wanted him in prison for life..
 
Yeah that one does not fly with me.. I don't even find it reasonable..

There has to be a real working theory that makes sense.. And I cannot find one.

Someone that hated him enough to do this to him? Someone who wanted him in prison for life..
"Real" and "makes sense" are subjective. Many people feel that law-enforcement is corrupt, and SA's prior conviction which was based on faulty eyewitness testimony, demonstrates this. The belief is cops looked for ways to get SA back in prison for life, as this would save the county from paying out on the lawsuit, and get back at someone they hated and who made them feel embarrassed.
 
"Real" and "makes sense" are subjective. Many people feel that law-enforcement is corrupt, and SA's prior conviction which was based on faulty eyewitness testimony, demonstrates this. The belief is cops looked for ways to get SA back in prison for life, as this would save the county from paying out on the lawsuit, and get back at someone they hated and who made them feel embarrassed.

I have no issue at all with the prior case.. that is an easy one. I can see that case being a disaster from the start.

This one is a little different. We are talking about someone murdering and burning a person to frame him. Leaving the evidence in a place where the police would find it and trace it back to him.
To me that takes either a lot of hate or greed.

If I am to believe he was framed it would have to be by someone who wanted to bury him.
 
I have no issue at all with the prior case.. that is an easy one. I can see that case being a disaster from the start.

This one is a little different. We are talking about someone murdering and burning a person to frame him. Leaving the evidence in a place where the police would find it and trace it back to him.
To me that takes either a lot of hate or greed.

If I am to believe he was framed it would have to be by someone who wanted to bury him.

It's not hard for me to believe that LE wanted to frame SA. I'm sure LE knew that the Averys were not rich and could not afford decent lawyers for SA should he be arrested. Rich people don't live in trailers and I'm sure LE was well aware of the competition between the Avery and Hermann salvage yards. As it worked out, the civil case was settled for $400K, a lot of which was used in his defense. Much less than SA would have gotten if the TH murder never happened,

Some have suggested that LE would have just killed SA if they wanted the civil case to go away. First, I'm not so sure the case would have been dismissed if SA was dead. Second, and if you've ever lived in an area where folks talk and everyone knows most everyone else, any of the remaining Avery clan would have exacted revenge on one or all of SA's killers. I don't believe for a minute that the Averys would just let that go.
 
It's not hard for me to believe that LE wanted to frame SA. I'm sure LE knew that the Averys were not rich and could not afford decent lawyers for SA should he be arrested. Rich people don't live in trailers and I'm sure LE was well aware of the competition between the Avery and Hermann salvage yards. As it worked out, the civil case was settled for $400K, a lot of which was used in his defense. Much less than SA would have gotten if the TH murder never happened,

Some have suggested that LE would have just killed SA if they wanted the civil case to go away. First, I'm not so sure the case would have been dismissed if SA was dead. Second, and if you've ever lived in an area where folks talk and everyone knows most everyone else, any of the remaining Avery clan would have exacted revenge on one or all of SA's killers. I don't believe for a minute that the Averys would just let that go.

For the police to have framed him then they had to find all the evidence there or worse yet kill her find all her evidence somewhere else and moved it to his property.. burned her in his pit..
That is too incredulous for me to believe. I don't believe if he was framed it was by police.. Some one went through a lot of trouble to make him look guilty.
 
The theories have largely morphed into: someone else killed her and one or more cops came across her body and her SUV and then devised a plan to pin it on Avery by burning her remains and planting those plus SA's old blood, TH's car key, TH's cell, camera, PDA, and a bullet containing TH DNA on his property. They protected the real perp because the cops were afraid their jobs and pensions would go away due to the pending civil lawsuit, and they felt embarrassed after having to testify in a deposition by Avery.

I have a hard time understanding a LE framing theory. It would take more individuals to accomplish it than those affected by the civil lawsuit.

Whats the motive for all of the LE people who where not connected in any way to the lawsuit? I don't see one beyond the "all cops are bad" type and that doesn't work for me. JMO
 
What if someone was molested by SA ... Hated him for it.. And finally go revenge?

What if LE found TH killed in her vechile somewhere off SA property and then framed from that point? I do not think all LE were in on the framing! just two maybe three.. But becasue they planted it... The non-framing officers had no clue - they did their job - collect, documented ect ect. With what they had put in front of them.
 
What if someone was molested by SA ... Hated him for it.. And finally go revenge?

What if LE found TH killed in her vechile somewhere off SA property and then framed from that point? I do not think all LE were in on the framing! just two maybe three.. But becasue they planted it... The non-framing officers had no clue - they did their job - collect, documented ect ect. With what they had put in front of them.

The only way a LE framing theory can work is if it's done with a small number of people who had the motive and opportunity to do it and a lot of luck that they didn't get caught.

So far I don't see that being possible. If Zellner comes up with some evidence showing otherwise I'm all for it. JMO
 
If you believe the 'Framing' back story, could I ask if anyone thinks whoever did it would have (could have) done a far better job than they did?

I do not believe either Avery or Dassey were set up or framed and that they are both Guilty.
 
I go back and forth every single day as to whether I think he's guilty or not. Today I'm having a guilty day. But it's like the weather... just give it a couple minutes and it'll change.
 
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