Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder?

[k-mac]

This is my 1st time making a post...typically I just like reading the various viewpoints being discussed on the cases I’m following. Something introduced at the end of MaM season 2 by KZ really shocked me, though, and I’m so surprised I haven’t seen lots of talk about it.

For the record, I’ve really had an open mind about this case & have been waiting for that one piece of evidence that would lock this down for me either way.

KZ talks about TH’s day planner and the fact that it was in the possession of her ex-boyfriend, who then turns it over to LE. He was supposed to have gotten it from her house after she disappeared. KZ says there are 2 witnesses her team interviewed that say they spoke w/ TH on her cell phone the day she went to SA’s. TH told both of them she was driving in her car during those conversations. Both witnesses said they scheduled appt’s w/ her. Those appt’s do appear written in that day planner in handwriting consistent w/ TH’s other writing in that planner (photos of those entries, as well as other pages in the planner are shown). One witness even says TH told him she needed to pull over to jot their scheduled appt down. TH’s cell phone records back up these calls taking place on that day & at those times, shortly before she is known to arrive at SA’s.

How did her ex-boyfriend get ahold of this day planner if it was in her car w/ her the day that she went to SA’s and never left that property alive? If you look at the timing and the general location of her cell phone during those calls in reference to the time she is known to have gotten to SA’s, there just wasn’t enough time for her to have driven to her house and left her planner there before getting to Avery’s Salvage Yard. The prosecution has never said they believe or offered any evidence/testimony that TH was at her own home any time that afternoon.

For me, this is the huge hole in the entire case. I honestly have tried thinking of any way for this to be possible that doesn’t include something egregious and I just can’t find a scenario that works. With the majority of the evidence in this case there are things that can be disputed...experts from both camps that offer conflicting opinions, witnesses that have given inconsistent statements, claims of LE planting evidence, etc..., but this revelation about the day planner is something much more factual and not subjective, IMO.

Did anyone else have a jaw-dropping moment when this was introduced in season 2? Is there some alternate scenario I’m just not thinking of that explains this in some innocent way? I don’t think it’s proof that TH’s ex-boyfriend is responsible for her death, but it definitely supports the idea of extreme corruption in this case. To me, it literally brings this investigation back to square one because if it’s true, everything LE & the prosecution has presented is based on a theory that fundamentally could not have happened.

full disclosure I haven't brought myself to watch all the episodes yet.
(I don't really buy into this game) but I am just gunna throw it out there for all the conspiracy dwellers...what proof do we have Teresa wrote it?
has it been examined by a handwriting expert (or 3)to confirm?
who's not to say it wasn't planted evidence???

this is what I mean. you cant pick and choose the start stops.

jmo

 

[texxas]

full disclosure I haven't brought myself to watch all the episodes yet.
(I don't really buy into this game) but I am just gunna throw it out there for all the conspiracy dwellers...what proof do we have Teresa wrote it?
has it been examined by a handwriting expert (or 3)to confirm?
who's not to say it wasn't planted evidence???

this is what I mean. you cant pick and choose the start stops.

jmo

I do understand what you’re saying and that’s how I’ve viewed all of the evidence presented from both sides. I’ve been extremely skeptical. With this new claim about the day planner there’s a few reasons why it appears to be solid, IMO:

- The planner was provided to the defense by the prosecution as evidence. The defense didn’t mysteriously find it.
- It’s the entire planner, not just specific pages. It has all of her appt’s, both for work & personal life...even notes jotted down on different dates about things w/ family members/friends. Family members, friends, co-workers would very easily be able to identify if this was actually her planner.
- If the day planner was being used by anyone trying to plant evidence, writing in the calendar the 2 different appt’s that TH set up during calls that day on the road just before her appt w/ SA would definitely not be beneficial to anyone except SA’s innocence. It would mean someone outside of TH & the 2 separate witnesses she spoke to on her cell would had to have somehow known what future dates they discussed & agreed on during those calls. Then they would have gone back and written those future appt’s in after she disappeared and put it in her house for the ex-boyfriend to get and provide to LE. It only hurts the prosecutions case, so why would they ever plant or provide that evidence to the defense team?
- It couldn’t be false evidence planted by SA or anyone supporting SA bc it was provided by TH’s ex-boyfriend to LE/prosecution. It didn’t come from anyone who was out to prove SA was innocent.

This is all JMO, but it’s definitely the one thing that I can’t somehow explain away.

 

[k-mac]

@texxas
excellent run down of your point
good food for thought

 

[Lass from Yorkshire]

This is my 1st time making a post...typically I just like reading the various viewpoints being discussed on the cases I’m following. Something introduced at the end of MaM season 2 by KZ really shocked me, though, and I’m so surprised I haven’t seen lots of talk about it.

For the record, I’ve really had an open mind about this case & have been waiting for that one piece of evidence that would lock this down for me either way.

KZ talks about TH’s day planner and the fact that it was in the possession of her ex-boyfriend, who then turns it over to LE. He was supposed to have gotten it from her house after she disappeared. KZ says there are 2 witnesses her team interviewed that say they spoke w/ TH on her cell phone the day she went to SA’s. TH told both of them she was driving in her car during those conversations. Both witnesses said they scheduled appt’s w/ her. Those appt’s do appear written in that day planner in handwriting consistent w/ TH’s other writing in that planner (photos of those entries, as well as other pages in the planner are shown). One witness even says TH told him she needed to pull over to jot their scheduled appt down. TH’s cell phone records back up these calls taking place on that day & at those times, shortly before she is known to arrive at SA’s.

How did her ex-boyfriend get ahold of this day planner if it was in her car w/ her the day that she went to SA’s and never left that property alive? If you look at the timing and the general location of her cell phone during those calls in reference to the time she is known to have gotten to SA’s, there just wasn’t enough time for her to have driven to her house and left her planner there before getting to Avery’s Salvage Yard. The prosecution has never said they believe or offered any evidence/testimony that TH was at her own home any time that afternoon.

For me, this is the huge hole in the entire case. I honestly have tried thinking of any way for this to be possible that doesn’t include something egregious and I just can’t find a scenario that works. With the majority of the evidence in this case there are things that can be disputed...experts from both camps that offer conflicting opinions, witnesses that have given inconsistent statements, claims of LE planting evidence, etc..., but this revelation about the day planner is something much more factual and not subjective, IMO.

Did anyone else have a jaw-dropping moment when this was introduced in season 2? Is there some alternate scenario I’m just not thinking of that explains this in some innocent way? I don’t think it’s proof that TH’s ex-boyfriend is responsible for her death, but it definitely supports the idea of extreme corruption in this case. To me, it literally brings this investigation back to square one because if it’s true, everything LE & the prosecution has presented is based on a theory that fundamentally could not have happened.

I had many jaw dropping moments to be honest - BD lying on the stand, bullet being examined and showing no signs of being the bullet that killed Teresa, the sniffer dogs alerting to all those areas outside of the Avery property, the report on computer search being kept from the defense team.. I also couldn’t believe it when this information on the day planner came out. About as surprised as I was when we find out a certain same LE officer didn’t file a report which would have been pivotal to the case (car being reported on side of road away from Avery property).
The whole thing is crazy.

 

[proudfootz]

I agree - the second series puts the evidence which has been emerging into perspective.

 

[Mrs Marple]

I am still ploughing my way through S2. Although l considered him innocent after the first series, l had a nagging doubt..TH remains were found on the property, ergo someone on the property murdered her. If not SA, then who?

My gut tells me he can't be trusted. He clearly has a low IQ and when he is recorded speaking l get the impression he is repeating things he's heard. Of course, that doesn't make him a murderer.

His blood got in that car somehow and l struggle with the randomness of its placement, if it was planted. Why wouldn't you put it on the handle? It's an obvious place. Why not on the wheel and gear stick? Again, it's obvious, if it was from a cut on his finger.

With the coming revelation that BoD was lying, l'm beginning to wonder if they were all involved somehow.

 

[proudfootz]

Knowing that Teresa left, but Steven stayed put at least lets him out of being a part of it.

 

[guruagain]

...

His blood got in that car somehow and l struggle with the randomness of its placement, if it was planted. Why wouldn't you put it on the handle? It's an obvious place. Why not on the wheel and gear stick? Again, it's obvious, if it was from a cut on his finger.
.

RSBM
Maybe the blood was planted before the car was moved. The person who moved the car didn't realise blood had been planted (it's dark) so when they wiped away their own fingerprints from steering wheel, handles, gear lever and handbrake they took the blood evidence with them? In this crazy case anything is possible, I mean why would blood be planted in random places but not where you expect blood to be if someone has driven a vehicle with a bloody finger?

 

[andreww]

Excuse me if this has been answered before but here goes...

I'm mid way through the second season and am actually quite impressed with the work that Steven's lawyer is doing, however, I just can't get past one stumbling point. Why is Avery hiding his phone number when he specifically requests Halbach to come to his home? Within the context of a frame up, how exactly does that even work?

 

[Hippiemomof5]

RSBM
Maybe the blood was planted before the car was moved. The person who moved the car didn't realise blood had been planted (it's dark) so when they wiped away their own fingerprints from steering wheel, handles, gear lever and handbrake they took the blood evidence with them? In this crazy case anything is possible, I mean why would blood be planted in random places but not where you expect blood to be if someone has driven a vehicle with a bloody finger?

Were the steering wheel and gear shift ever tested for dna? It would be pretty odd if TH’s dna wasn’t found, wouldn’t it??

 

[guruagain]

Were the steering wheel and gear shift ever tested for dna? It would be pretty odd if TH’s dna wasn’t found, wouldn’t it??

I don't think TH's vehicle was tested for her DNA, I might be wrong.

 

[leslievernon]

@andreww
i guess it was avery himself who said that he used to do this... he was kind of a prominet figure, i mean.. the bill in his name, the lawsuit, the wrongful conviction everybody knew of...

anyway, it can't be used to establish a kind of sneaky behaviour, like ken kratz would like to. people knew TH was going there. avery knew she was coming, and she had been there a few times before.

@Hippiemomof5
äh... i don't know. my guess is that they did cherry-picking reg. the evidence. zellner said in the series that the piece of metal that holds open the car hood (what's that called?), wasn't tested, but the latch was tested (which had averys DNA on it, from an unknown source), so...

ETA: oh, now i know what you're saying... yes. there should be her DNA in her car. hairs, skin cells... something.

 

[SweetT]

This is my 1st time making a post...typically I just like reading the various viewpoints being discussed on the cases I’m following. Something introduced at the end of MaM season 2 by KZ really shocked me, though, and I’m so surprised I haven’t seen lots of talk about it.

For the record, I’ve really had an open mind about this case & have been waiting for that one piece of evidence that would lock this down for me either way.

KZ talks about TH’s day planner and the fact that it was in the possession of her ex-boyfriend, who then turns it over to LE. He was supposed to have gotten it from her house after she disappeared. KZ says there are 2 witnesses her team interviewed that say they spoke w/ TH on her cell phone the day she went to SA’s. TH told both of them she was driving in her car during those conversations. Both witnesses said they scheduled appt’s w/ her. Those appt’s do appear written in that day planner in handwriting consistent w/ TH’s other writing in that planner (photos of those entries, as well as other pages in the planner are shown). One witness even says TH told him she needed to pull over to jot their scheduled appt down. TH’s cell phone records back up these calls taking place on that day & at those times, shortly before she is known to arrive at SA’s.

How did her ex-boyfriend get ahold of this day planner if it was in her car w/ her the day that she went to SA’s and never left that property alive? If you look at the timing and the general location of her cell phone during those calls in reference to the time she is known to have gotten to SA’s, there just wasn’t enough time for her to have driven to her house and left her planner there before getting to Avery’s Salvage Yard. The prosecution has never said they believe or offered any evidence/testimony that TH was at her own home any time that afternoon.

For me, this is the huge hole in the entire case. I honestly have tried thinking of any way for this to be possible that doesn’t include something egregious and I just can’t find a scenario that works. With the majority of the evidence in this case there are things that can be disputed...experts from both camps that offer conflicting opinions, witnesses that have given inconsistent statements, claims of LE planting evidence, etc..., but this revelation about the day planner is something much more factual and not subjective, IMO.

Did anyone else have a jaw-dropping moment when this was introduced in season 2? Is there some alternate scenario I’m just not thinking of that explains this in some innocent way? I don’t think it’s proof that TH’s ex-boyfriend is responsible for her death, but it definitely supports the idea of extreme corruption in this case. To me, it literally brings this investigation back to square one because if it’s true, everything LE & the prosecution has presented is based on a theory that fundamentally could not have happened.

I never heard what the drive time to her place after the 2nd call would have been to determine if it was possible for her to have returned home

 

[LongTallTexan]

I agree. I don’t really care about the motive. It’s nice to know but it could have been anything. There is too much that lays this on Avery. Are you telling me that someone killed her to frame Avery? I don’t believed tj

he is guilty because she was last seen on his property. He is guilty because her truck was found with her blood in it on his property. He is guilty because her bones were found in his burn pit after the witness Brendan dassey cooberates a fire that had garbage bags on it and then Steven had Brendan help him collect more trash and put lots of things on top of the garbage bags which held Theresa with Brendan and then burned the pile. He is guilty because his dna is on her truck.
He is guilty because he is guilty. I don’t care about the charges of sexual assault so much because the evidence is only in Brendan’s words. However he gave details he would only know if he was there. I believe some of what he is saying is truth and some is not.
But the evidence points to no one but Steve Avery with the assistance of Brendan at the burn pile.
For anyone to believe this was a frame job would have to believe some followed Teresa, murdered her. Put her in her car, burned her in a fire on Steven Avery’s property at the same time he was having a fire and then parked her truck there. Dropped her key in his house, and never left any of their own dna or evidence.

I believe Steven Avery is a damaged man. Even in the letter he writes to his ex there is explosive anger and rage.
It fits. All the evidence fits Steven Avery and no one else.

I don't know....a lesson maybe MC should learn is OK to admit.
Respectfully, I think we can all see why he was charged, whether we agree or not, the evidence presented ended in a guilty prosecution. However, if we can be neutral, I think we can also see that the Defense and the Prosecution, did a tragic job of finding truth. There is evidence that does NOT fit (pelvic bones in the quarry)the Prosecution storyline, and there is lack of evidence that would fit a Defense alternative storyline (lack of blood/DNA from TH in bedroom, garage). If killed on the property as KK states, shot in garage and then burned...very inconsistent actions by SA....why move only some bones, why not discard camera, phone, etc from barrels and car away from the scene to 'attempt' to get away with it, but only moved a few bones. A lot of activity from dogs in quarry....clearly something happened at the quarry. If TH blood is in car....why?....it doesn't fit KK story. First shes in bedroom with a slit throat, then carried to garage and shot and then burned...no need to transport a body. Furthermore, it was mentioned that her bones had but marks, and only pieces found....sounds like someone chopped her up and then burned her, where would that have happened....there would've been a lot of DNA. There is too much evidence and lack thereof that doesn't add up for anyone to 'know' what happened.

 

[Lass from Yorkshire]

I never heard what the drive time to her place after the 2nd call would have been to determine if it was possible for her to have returned home

I can’t remember the exact time but they do document it in the 2nd series, it would have been impossible for her to get home in time.

 

[Lass from Yorkshire]

I don't know....a lesson maybe MC should learn is OK to admit.
Respectfully, I think we can all see why he was charged, whether we agree or not, the evidence presented ended in a guilty prosecution. However, if we can be neutral, I think we can also see that the Defense and the Prosecution, did a tragic job of finding truth. There is evidence that does NOT fit (pelvic bones in the quarry)the Prosecution storyline, and there is lack of evidence that would fit a Defense alternative storyline (lack of blood/DNA from TH in bedroom, garage). If killed on the property as KK states, shot in garage and then burned...very inconsistent actions by SA....why move only some bones, why not discard camera, phone, etc from barrels and car away from the scene to 'attempt' to get away with it, but only moved a few bones. A lot of activity from dogs in quarry....clearly something happened at the quarry. If TH blood is in car....why?....it doesn't fit KK story. First shes in bedroom with a slit throat, then carried to garage and shot and then burned...no need to transport a body. Furthermore, it was mentioned that her bones had but marks, and only pieces found....sounds like someone chopped her up and then burned her, where would that have happened....there would've been a lot of DNA. There is too much evidence and lack thereof that doesn't add up for anyone to 'know' what happened.

And that’s the precise problem. Nobody knows, yet someone is convicted and the State is doing all it can to try and make any subsequent queries go away.

 

[missy1974]

@LongTallTexan

In regards to blood being somewhere if she was dismembered.... KZ said on Twitter last week that they have done luminal testing in barb's old garage, they are awaiting results still.

 

[guruagain]

@LongTallTexan

In regards to blood being somewhere if she was dismembered.... KZ said on Twitter last week that they have done luminal testing in barb's old garage, they are awaiting results still.

They have swabbed for DNA I think that's what they are waiting results for.

 

[LongTallTexan]

I think the State's concern about TH's family and what they have gone through and what they are still going through with MaM2 is understandable, there is no doubt that TH and family are a victim, but they are sooo close minded that can't fathom that SA and BD may be a victim, which is really outrageous and unbelievable considering that SA was already a victim of similar circumstances....I would think they would want to absolutely make sure they are getting it right this time....just retry the case. I be more concerned about TH's family if there is a REAL killer that's been out there since....and LE's pride/process/coverup got in the way.

 

[ghoster]

I am pretty Avery'd out, if you want to know the truth of the matter.

His face looks like it belongs on a Toby jug.