Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder?

[Karinna]

Would like to add an observation about MaM2 and the evidence tests Zellner and crew did on the RaV4.
It appeared that most of the tests were done in the daylight, but it seems most likely that Avery moved the Rav4 after dark. A big deal was made of the DNA on the hood latch, but it seems to me that if Avery was fumbling around in the dark, he could've easily missed the latch a few times. Same with the blood next to the ignition key and trying to put the key in the switch. Maybe he missed the switch and brushed up against the spot where the blood was found.

My question is If Avery's cut on his finger was pretty much healed up by the 3rd. Nov. and he opened it up again that evening on the trailer before going to Menards with Chuck at 7:30pm. and then went into his bathroom where the blood was deposited in and around the sink and on the floor, and then proceeds to clean up and tape the cut to prevent it from bleeding further, where did the blood in TH's vehicle come from?
And remember his finger wasn't bleeding prior to the 3rd. Nov., apart from when he cut his finger initially around Oct. 25th.

 

[Karinna]

There is also no evidence Avery moved the RAV to anywhere that i'm aware of?

 

[Karinna]

Who killed Teresa Halbach? The four alternative suspects
Person 1

According to the defense motion, Person 1 had a violent and volatile personality. His co-workers allegedly described him as a short-tempered angry person capable of murder. He was allegedly described as a chronic liar who blows up at people, "screams a lot" and is a "psycho." He had been previously charged in 1994 with criminal trespass and battery. The criminal complaint alleged he went to a woman's home at 3 a.m. and knocked on her bedroom window. Then he allegedly walked into her home and stated, "You will die for this, b-tch." He then allegedly knocked a man with the woman unconscious.
etc.
Who killed Teresa Halbach? The four alternative suspects

 

[Sustained]

My question is If Avery's cut on his finger was pretty much healed up by the 3rd. Nov. and he opened it up again that evening on the trailer before going to Menards with Chuck at 7:30pm. and then went into his bathroom where the blood was deposited in and around the sink and on the floor, and then proceeds to clean up and tape the cut to prevent it from bleeding further, where did the blood in TH's vehicle come from?
And remember his finger wasn't bleeding prior to the 3rd. Nov., apart from when he cut his finger initially around Oct. 25th.

How do you know that ? The man worked in a salvage yard and could've reopened a cut at any time - even on 10/31.

 

[Sustained]

There is also no evidence Avery moved the RAV to anywhere that i'm aware of?

No evidence ... DNA doesn't count ?

 

[missy1974]

1. As to the *67, I thought Teresa was on Cingular on 10/31/05 and the original call logs showed an unknown caller.

2. Brendan having bleach on his jeans is not convincing on its own but fits in the narrative of Avery cleaning up the blood after shooting Teresa.

3. This exchange between Brendan and Barb was what I was referring to:

M: I haven't talked to nobody. I told you nobody calls me and lets me know nothing.
B: Ya. Do you feel bad if I say it today?
M: You don't even have to say it Brendan
B: Why?
M: Because just by the way you are acting I know what it is?
B: What
M: I don't want to say it over the phone
B: About what all happened?
M: Huh
B: About what all happened?
M: What all happened, what are you talking about?
B: About what me & Steven did that day,
M: What about it?
B: Well, Mike & Mark & Matt came up one day and took another interview with me and said because they think 1 was lying but so, they said if I come out with it that I would have to go to jail for 90 years.
M: What?
B: Ya. But if I came out with it I would probably get I dunno about like 20 or less. After the interview they told me if I wanted to say something to her family and said that I was sorry for what I did.
M: Then Steven did do it.
B: Ya
M: (Mom Crying) Why didn't you tell me about this?
B: Ya, but they came out wi.th something that was untrue with me
M: What's that
B: They said that I sold crack.



4. I haven't seen a transcript of an interview, but this is from the trial. Of course if you believe Colborn was in on the conspiracy, he must've perjured himself at the trial. So it wasn't that she didn't show up, but that he didn't speak to her. Then who paid her ?

Kratz:

Sergeant Colborn, that first day, that is, the first day of the missing persons investigation, the 3rd of November, after Mr. Wiegert asked for your help, did you have any conversation with Steven Avery at that time?

Colborn:

Yes, I did. I asked him if Teresa Halbach had come out to their property to photograph a vehicle that they were selling.

Kratz:

Mr. Avery have a response for you?

Colborn:

He said that she was taking some pictures of a van that his sister was selling. And I asked Mr. Avery if she had said where she was going and he said, "I never talked to her. She was only here five or ten minutes, then she left."

Kratz:

That he never talked to her?

Colborn:

That's what he told me. He never talked to her.


5. The fact Steven was abusive to women speaks volumes.

6. Once again, the plastic indeed could have been something else - but it also could have been Teresa's phone.

Why would the Wisconsin Innocence Project support Griesbach's opinion of Avery's guilt with Zellner currently working the case ?

1. He used *67 when calling Teresa's cell phone. He did not use it to call AutoTrader's 1-800 # 2 times earlier in the day. If he was really trying to conceal who he (or Barb for that matter), why wouldn't he *67 those calls? The theory that he lured her there is ridiculous IMO, who lures someone to their address? or next door? If he really wanted to lure her there, he should have just called her directly and cut out the middle man (auto trader)

2. Or the bleached jeans fit the narrative that they were cleaning up some sort of auto fluid.

3. Did you continue reading the call log?

Brendan: Yeah. So if I was in the garage cleaning up that stuff on the floor, how much time will I get though for that?
Barb: What was it?
Brendan: I don't know. It was this reddish-black stuff
......
Brendan: Yeah and plus if he didn't do it then why would was he trying to hide up north that one day
......
Barb: It is normal, Brendan to sit down all the time. So did you see the body in the fire?
Brendan: No
Barb: Steven says that you seen the body in the fire
Brendan: No
Barb: You know if he killed her?
Brendan: Not that I know of
Barb: So then how do you know that there was a bullet shell outside of the garage
Brendan: Cause when Mike came up here he had pictures of it
Barb: They told everybody that you told them that there was bullet shells inside the garage
Brendan: No
Barb: That Steven shot her 10 times
Brendan: No. In the picture they had a bullet right by a crack or something cement

(Mike is in reference to Mike O'Kelley I believe... the "investigator" that worked for Len)
......

So we can pick and choose from his interviews, or from his phone calls, IMO this kid still didn't know that what he cleaned up was blood, he didn't know that Steven killed Teresa, he tells his mom he didn't see her body in the fire either. and after Wiegert and Fassbender told him he better tell his mom what he told them before they did, he did exactly that, how convenient that it was recorded for them too.

4. In your original post you said, Avery lying to the cops as to whether Teresa ever came over on 10/31. He didn't say she wasn't there, he has always said that she did show up, took photo's and left. I am cautious with a report that is written 8 months after the fact from LE, Avery saying "I didn't talk to her", I am not sure I would take that literally, Colborn asked him if he was sure that she didn't mention where she might have been going after she left, and Avery said no, he didn't talk to her. I take that to mean 'small talk', but whatever, I don't think Avery ever denied paying her or approaching her to pay her. I am not sure where you copied the above "trial" info from, I couldn't find it, here is a direct link to the testimony from trial: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Trial-Transcript-Day-7-2007Feb20.pdf#page=75

 

[Karinna]

How do you know that ? The man worked in a salvage yard and could've reopened a cut at any time - even on 10/31.

That is a speculation because it has never been stated anywhere that i am aware of? And yet Avery cleans up so well in a supposed murder/crime scene that not one trace of forensic evidence is found at the scene? But no bloody fingerprints of Avery's anywhere in or on TH's vehicle?

 

[Karinna]

No evidence ... DNA doesn't count ?

Sorry but no, i don't trust anything about this shoddy investigation from all the different players at the time.
As KZ's investigation stated nothing from it can be duplicated, which according to her expert doesn't add up.

 

[Sustained]

1. He used *67 when calling Teresa's cell phone. He did not use it to call AutoTrader's 1-800 # 2 times earlier in the day. If he was really trying to conceal who he (or Barb for that matter), why wouldn't he *67 those calls? The theory that he lured her there is ridiculous IMO, who lures someone to their address? or next door? If he really wanted to lure her there, he should have just called her directly and cut out the middle man (auto trader)

2. Or the bleached jeans fit the narrative that they were cleaning up some sort of auto fluid.

3. Did you continue reading the call log?

Brendan: Yeah. So if I was in the garage cleaning up that stuff on the floor, how much time will I get though for that?
Barb: What was it?
Brendan: I don't know. It was this reddish-black stuff
......
Brendan: Yeah and plus if he didn't do it then why would was he trying to hide up north that one day
......
Barb: It is normal, Brendan to sit down all the time. So did you see the body in the fire?
Brendan: No
Barb: Steven says that you seen the body in the fire
Brendan: No
Barb: You know if he killed her?
Brendan: Not that I know of
Barb: So then how do you know that there was a bullet shell outside of the garage
Brendan: Cause when Mike came up here he had pictures of it
Barb: They told everybody that you told them that there was bullet shells inside the garage
Brendan: No
Barb: That Steven shot her 10 times
Brendan: No. In the picture they had a bullet right by a crack or something cement

(Mike is in reference to Mike O'Kelley I believe... the "investigator" that worked for Len)
......

So we can pick and choose from his interviews, or from his phone calls, IMO this kid still didn't know that what he cleaned up was blood, he didn't know that Steven killed Teresa, he tells his mom he didn't see her body in the fire either. and after Wiegert and Fassbender told him he better tell his mom what he told them before they did, he did exactly that, how convenient that it was recorded for them too.

4. In your original post you said, Avery lying to the cops as to whether Teresa ever came over on 10/31. He didn't say she wasn't there, he has always said that she did show up, took photo's and left. I am cautious with a report that is written 8 months after the fact from LE, Avery saying "I didn't talk to her", I am not sure I would take that literally, Colborn asked him if he was sure that she didn't mention where she might have been going after she left, and Avery said no, he didn't talk to her. I take that to mean 'small talk', but whatever, I don't think Avery ever denied paying her or approaching her to pay her. I am not sure where you copied the above "trial" info from, I couldn't find it, here is a direct link to the testimony from trial: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-Trial-Transcript-Day-7-2007Feb20.pdf#page=75

Why would Avery have used *67 to call Teresa unless he didn't want her to know it was him ?

It appears in the interview up in Crivitz that Brendan is very conversant with police. It is only in the March interview where he takes forever to answer, almost like he's thinking of the best way to put something so he doesn't get in trouble.

I find it very hard to believe that Avery would've had Brendan cleaning up transmission fluid in his garage on Halloween evening. It is far more likely to me that they were cleaning up blood. Brendan would've done anything his uncle said.

You can take any circumstantial case and rip it apart, offering alternative explanations for every DNA sample, eyewitness account of visits, conversations with police, phone calls, cuts on fingers, etc.

I was once on the side of Avery being innocent, but now I think he's guilty. I have a brother who is a pathological liar, but there is always some truth in what he says. IMO, it's the same with Brendan and he may have been trying not to upset his mom. In every interview with Brendan, you can find what I think is some truth about the murder.

I tend to believe the stories about Steven masturbating out by the highway when the police officer's wife drove by, forcing her off the road, molesting his niece, asking a 17-year-old over for sex the night before Teresa was murdered, abusing Jodi, and drawing a torture chamber for women. Steven had a sex addiction and a tendency toward violence and Jodi was in jail.

 

[Sustained]

That is a speculation because it has never been stated anywhere that i am aware of? And yet Avery cleans up so well in a supposed murder/crime scene that not one trace of forensic evidence is found at the scene? But no bloody fingerprints of Avery's anywhere in or on TH's vehicle?

How many days did Avery have to clean up his trailer ? And how we know he didn't attempt to clean up the Rav4 as well but missed a few spots ?

 

[missy1974]

Why would Avery have used *67 to call Teresa unless he didn't want her to know it was him ?

It appears in the interview up in Crivitz that Brendan is very conversant with police. It is only in the March interview where he takes forever to answer, almost like he's thinking of the best way to put something so he doesn't get in trouble.

I find it very hard to believe that Avery would've had Brendan cleaning up transmission fluid in his garage on Halloween evening. It is far more likely to me that they were cleaning up blood. Brendan would've done anything his uncle said.

You can take any circumstantial case and rip it apart, offering alternative explanations for every DNA sample, eyewitness account of visits, conversations with police, phone calls, cuts on fingers, etc.

I was once on the side of Avery being innocent, but now I think he's guilty. I have a brother who is a pathological liar, but there is always some truth in what he says. IMO, it's the same with Brendan and he may have been trying not to upset his mom. In every interview with Brendan, you can find what I think is some truth about the murder.

I tend to believe the stories about Steven masturbating out by the highway when the police officer's wife drove by, forcing her off the road, molesting his niece, asking a 17-year-old over for sex the night before Teresa was murdered, abusing Jodi, and drawing a torture chamber for women. Steven had a sex addiction and a tendency toward violence and Jodi was in jail.

I may not agree with you Sustained, but it's still nice to see you back ;-) We could go back and forth, but I doubt it will change our minds lol

I do think Brendan is 100% innocent, Avery... it may not seem like it, but I can see both sides when it comes to him, but there is always something that makes me think, no way... like in your next post when you say 'how many days did he have to clean up the trailer'... this is a "no way" moment for me, because you can see dust on things like the headboard of the bed she was supposedly raped on, throat slit, and everything else Brendan came up with. He didn't not do a Dexter and clean his trailer IMO And the garage was even worse, as far as dirt, dust, etc.

 

[proudfootz]

It appears there are some coaching sessions with Brendan that are missing - I don't recall the one where law enforcement employees threatened him with false charges of selling crack cocaine.

The only statement Brendan made about that day that I have any confidence in is the very first one he made before the manipulation began.

Brendan admits he didn't see Teresa and didn't see her vehicle. He went home and played video games.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...dan-Dassey-Interview-Transcript-2005Nov06.pdf

About page 17 they start feeding him the information they prefer he'd say.

All MOO

 

[proudfootz]

How many days did Avery have to clean up his trailer ? And how we know he didn't attempt to clean up the Rav4 as well but missed a few spots ?

That's the problem I have with the narrative spun by the prosecution - there's too many holes in it papered over with 'maybe' and 'perhaps' and 'it's possible' for me to give it any credence beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[missy1974]

It appears there are some coaching sessions with Brendan that are missing - I don't recall the one where law enforcement employees threatened him with false charges of selling crack cocaine.

The only statement Brendan made about that day that I have any confidence in is the very first one he made before the manipulation began.

Brendan admits he didn't see Teresa and didn't see her vehicle. He went home and played video games.

http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...dan-Dassey-Interview-Transcript-2005Nov06.pdf

About page 17 they start feeding him the information they prefer he'd say.

All MOO

I was wondering about that myself proudfootz. From that call log, some comments that Brendan makes, makes me think we are missing something.

It's like the March 1st interview... we are missing the "Fox Hills" interviews/feeding sessions.

 

[Karinna]

How many days did Avery have to clean up his trailer ? And how we know he didn't attempt to clean up the Rav4 as well but missed a few spots ?

You do realize KZ has evidence of an exchange between Avery, ST & BT where they don't deny Teresa was seen leaving the ASY don't you?
That means TH was not killed at ASY.
(quote)
AVERY: And he said he left. She left.
SCOTT TADYCH: That's right.
BARBARA TADYCH: Yeah. She left.
AVERY: Yeah.
BARBARA TADYCH: Yeah.
AVERY: Well, he [Bobby] didn't testify for that.
And that means BoD the state's star witness lied on the stand at trial.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-2017-Motion-for-Reconsideration-Exhibits.pdf

 

[Sustained]

You do realize KZ has evidence of an exchange between Avery, ST & BT where they don't deny Teresa was seen leaving the ASY don't you?
That means TH was not killed at ASY.
(quote)
AVERY: And he said he left. She left.
SCOTT TADYCH: That's right.
BARBARA TADYCH: Yeah. She left.
AVERY: Yeah.
BARBARA TADYCH: Yeah.
AVERY: Well, he [Bobby] didn't testify for that.
And that means BoD the state's star witness lied on the stand at trial.
http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...-2017-Motion-for-Reconsideration-Exhibits.pdf

The conversation ... hmm ... between 3 that are thick as thieves. Of course, ST/BT are going to say she left as that means Brendan had nothing to do with it. ST/BT have no idea if she left. Only Avery really knows and what do you think he's gonna say ?

 

[CoolJ]

No evidence ... DNA doesn't count ?

It is a fact that the Wisconsin Crime Lab says his DNA was in the RAV.
But that is the only fact you can glean from this information.

It certainly does not prove as fact that he himself was in the RAV.
It doesn't even prove that his DNA was in the RAV.

Again, it only proves that the Wisconsin Crime Lab says his DNA was in the RAV.

Actually, the lack of his DNA or blood or fingerprints in the RAV does far more to prove he wasn't in the RAV than anything else.

There is far more evidence that SA was never in that RAV than there is pointing towards him ever being in the RAV. If you think about it logically.

 

[CoolJ]

The conversation ... hmm ... between 3 that are thick as thieves. Of course, ST/BT are going to say she left as that means Brendan had nothing to do with it. ST/BT have no idea if she left. Only Avery really knows and what do you think he's gonna say ?

Bobby knows. And we know for 100% sure that Bobby perjured himself on the stand.

 

[CoolJ]

There is also no evidence Avery moved the RAV to anywhere that i'm aware of?

Actually the evidence proves he didn't move the RAV.

In order to move the RAV he would have had to touch the gear shift and steering wheel with a bloody finger and no gloves. It is common sense really.

 

[Sustained]

It is a fact that the Wisconsin Crime Lab says his DNA was in the RAV.
But that is the only fact you can glean from this information.

It certainly does not prove as fact that he himself was in the RAV.
It doesn't even prove that his DNA was in the RAV.

Again, it only proves that the Wisconsin Crime Lab says his DNA was in the RAV.

Actually, the lack of his DNA or blood or fingerprints in the RAV does far more to prove he wasn't in the RAV than anything else.

There is far more evidence that SA was never in that RAV than there is pointing towards him ever being in the RAV. If you think about it logically.

Not really - SA might have had gloves on for part of the time. His DNA was found in several places, including the hood latch. KZ made a big deal about the amount of his DNA on the hood latch, but if he did move the car, it was most likely dark since sunset on 10/31/05 was 4:49 pm. Fumbing for the hood latch in the dark a few times could easily have caused him to leave more DNA. SA also had 3-4 days to go back and wipe the car down. Not saying he did but anything is possible.