Steven Avery: Guilty of Teresa Halbach's Murder?

[Sustained]

Actually the evidence proves he didn't move the RAV.

In order to move the RAV he would have had to touch the gear shift and steering wheel with a bloody finger and no gloves. It is common sense really.

How do you know he had no gloves on and only removed them for a few secs to turn the ignition key ?

 

[Sustained]

Bobby knows. And we know for 100% sure that Bobby perjured himself on the stand.

Why ? Because Bryan and Barb say so ? Neither Bryan or Barb saw her leave the property. If Bryan and Barb say that Bobby said she left, could be that they think that alone should exonerate Brendan and Steven and NOT implicate Bobby or anyone Dassey/Tadych. I can guarantee that BT/ST know who killed Teresa and whether Brendan was involved.

Blood is thicker than water. I personally think the whole clan is a bunch of liars.
In SA's 11/9 interview, he said he went to bed @ 9pm. But Blaine and Kayla both said they saw SA by the firepit at 10 and 11pm respectively.

 

[Sustained]

For those of you who subscribe to KZ's latest theory that TH drove away that Bobby flagged her down on Kuss Road and killed her ...

1. Since Bobby had his own vehicle, who drove the Rav4 back and put it on the Avery lot ?
2. What did Bobby do with TH's body on 10/31 - immediately burn it in Steven's burn pit ? Steven says he was home all afternoon and night, so he would've seen Bobby. As would have Brendan.
3. How did police make the connection with Bobby so they could easily find the Rav4 and get the license plate to put in the car in the salvage yard ?
4. Where did police get the key to frame Steven ? Or did Bobby put it in Steven's trailer ?
5. Who shot the 22 in Steven's garage and why would anyone shoot a gun in a garage unless they were trying to kill someone or something ? Brendan admits to being in the garage with Steven cleaning.
6. Where did Bobby burn the body so police could move the bones later to SA's burn pit ?

 

[proudfootz]

Not really - SA might have had gloves on for part of the time. His DNA was found in several places, including the hood latch. KZ made a big deal about the amount of his DNA on the hood latch, but if he did move the car, it was most likely dark since sunset on 10/31/05 was 4:49 pm. Fumbling for the hood latch in the dark a few times could easily have caused him to leave more DNA. SA also had 3-4 days to go back and wipe the car down. Not saying he did but anything is possible.

BBM

This is why I can't subscribe to any 'theory' beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Karinna]

The conversation ... hmm ... between 3 that are thick as thieves. Of course, ST/BT are going to say she left as that means Brendan had nothing to do with it. ST/BT have no idea if she left. Only Avery really knows and what do you think he's gonna say ?

So is this new witness lying to KZ as well?
(quote)
A new witness has come forward to say they saw Halbach’s RAV4 ”parked at the turnaround at State Highway 147 and the East Twin River Bridge” on both November 4 and November 5, 2005. The car was found on the Avery property on November 5. The witness says they reported seeing the car to Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department Sergeant Andy Colborn, but the officer did not prepare a report documenting the conversation. The lawyers say, “The witness’s observation of the RAV4 would have destroyed the State’s theory that the victim’s vehicle never left the Avery property after her arrival on October 31.”
New suspect? Steven Avery's nephew looked at images of Teresa Halbach and mutilated dead women, lawyers say

 

[Karinna]

I also thought this was interesting about the hood latch
(quote)
Forensic testing of Avery’s DNA on the hood latch of Halbach’s car found that Avery would have had to have tried to open the latch around 90 times to leave the amount of DNA the Wisconsin State crime laboratory say they found on the latch.
Avery Filed Motion 10.23.17 Part 1_motion

 

[Karinna]

IMO RH is also a liar
(quote)
New evidence allegedly connects Halbach’s ex-boyfriend Ryan Hillegas with the crime scene. Hillegas was in possession of her day planner, from which he tore a page, giving to a friend of Halbach’s, who, in turn, handed it over to the police on November 3. Denise Coakley claims she spoke to Halbach on the phone at 11.35 a.m. on October 31—the day she died. Halbach was driving her RAV4 vehicle at the time and made notes in her day planner. The attorneys say this is evidence the day planner was in the vehicle when Halbach was killed and the fact that it ended up in Hillegas’ possession would have linked him to the crime scene.

 

[Sustained]

So is this new witness lying to KZ as well?
(quote)
A new witness has come forward to say they saw Halbach’s RAV4 ”parked at the turnaround at State Highway 147 and the East Twin River Bridge” on both November 4 and November 5, 2005. The car was found on the Avery property on November 5. The witness says they reported seeing the car to Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department Sergeant Andy Colborn, but the officer did not prepare a report documenting the conversation. The lawyers say, “The witness’s observation of the RAV4 would have destroyed the State’s theory that the victim’s vehicle never left the Avery property after her arrival on October 31.”
New suspect? Steven Avery's nephew looked at images of Teresa Halbach and mutilated dead women, lawyers say

You actually believe that someone came forward 10+ years later and said he saw Halbach's RAV4. Why did this person wait all this time to come forward even if Colborn had poo-pooed him away ? Obviously, it wasn't that important for him to come forward and testify during SA's trial as that in and of itself would've possibly exonerated SA. Not only that, Buting/Strang could've asked Colborn on the stand why he didn't take the report and file it.

How did he know the car was Teresa's and not another RAV4 ? Anyone in Twin Rivers can now come forward and say they saw Teresa's car between 10/31 and 11/4.

 

[Sustained]

IMO RH is also a liar
(quote)
New evidence allegedly connects Halbach’s ex-boyfriend Ryan Hillegas with the crime scene. Hillegas was in possession of her day planner, from which he tore a page, giving to a friend of Halbach’s, who, in turn, handed it over to the police on November 3. Denise Coakley claims she spoke to Halbach on the phone at 11.35 a.m. on October 31—the day she died. Halbach was driving her RAV4 vehicle at the time and made notes in her day planner. The attorneys say this is evidence the day planner was in the vehicle when Halbach was killed and the fact that it ended up in Hillegas’ possession would have linked him to the crime scene.

BBM - where is the evidence that this is true ? Maybe the day planner was left at the house.

 

[Sustained]

I also thought this was interesting about the hood latch
(quote)
Forensic testing of Avery’s DNA on the hood latch of Halbach’s car found that Avery would have had to have tried to open the latch around 90 times to leave the amount of DNA the Wisconsin State crime laboratory say they found on the latch.
Avery Filed Motion 10.23.17 Part 1_motion

And I'm sure another expert (not hired by KZ) would come to the conclusion it would only take once or twice of opening the hood latch to leave the same DNA.

 

[missy1974]

For those of you who subscribe to KZ's latest theory that TH drove away that Bobby flagged her down on Kuss Road and killed her ...

1. Since Bobby had his own vehicle, who drove the Rav4 back and put it on the Avery lot ?
2. What did Bobby do with TH's body on 10/31 - immediately burn it in Steven's burn pit ? Steven says he was home all afternoon and night, so he would've seen Bobby. As would have Brendan.
3. How did police make the connection with Bobby so they could easily find the Rav4 and get the license plate to put in the car in the salvage yard ?
4. Where did police get the key to frame Steven ? Or did Bobby put it in Steven's trailer ?
5. Who shot the 22 in Steven's garage and why would anyone shoot a gun in a garage unless they were trying to kill someone or something ? Brendan admits to being in the garage with Steven cleaning.
6. Where did Bobby burn the body so police could move the bones later to SA's burn pit ?

I don't necessarily think it happened the way the video showed; however, it does show that it "could have happened" and shows the time frames of how long everything could take. But I will try to answer as if I believe it... and will answer what I can...

1. Kuss Rd is walking distance from the Avery lot. Wouldn't have been hard for anyone to do, including Bobby.

2. There is evidence that the burn pit was not the primary burn site. The fact that there were bones found in at least one barrel behind the Dassey house, and bones found in the quarry owned by Manitowoc County, indicate that the burn site could have been in barrel's, in the quarry, and some moved. IF it was Bobby, Bobby had from the 31st until the 4th/5thish to burn the body, and move the bones. If the body was burned elsewhere, say the quarry for example, and LE wanted to "help" the case against SA, this is where I believe they found them and moved them. The investigation of the bones was the most mishandled evidence in this case IMO. There are no photo's of the bones in situ, no gridding, and even the States expert, Ertl, said in an email to Fassbender that he did not take any photo's of the bones because it was obvious it had been altered before he got there. That is telling IMO.

3. I'm not sure why you are assuming that LE needed to make a connection with Bobby to have found and planted the license plates? Maybe I missed something in the video/theory? I think it's very possible that Bobby moved the RAV4 himself, and/or put the plates where they were found?

4. The key. The key was the valet key, not the main key. The other part of the lanyard was found in the middle console of her RAV4. Where are her other keys? Out of all the evidence, regardless of whether SA did it or not, I do believe that the key was planted by LE. Possibly just to ensure a reason to arrest/convict Avery.

5. Roland Johnson. He owned the trailer, and he owned the gun. His testimony can be found here: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...rial-Transcript-Day-19-2007Mar08.pdf#page=148 He says he shot the gun all over the yard, around the garage, and at the door of the garage. That would make it pretty easy to either kick or move a spent shell/bullet into the garage over the years. He lived there for many many years. He said he never cleaned up the spent shells/bullets over the years either. Would make it pretty easy for LE to find one to plant some evidence on too, wouldn't it? It wouldn't be like it was an anomaly there.

6. The quarry... or burn barrels? seems like KZ has some evidence that there were more than just the pelvic bones that had cut marks and it's possible that she was indeed dismembered, which only makes sense if she was burned in a barrel. I guess it's possible it could have been done in a barrel at the quarry and moved later too?

Like I said, I don't necessarily believe the video. I just can't see her pulling over for someone guy following behind her. I have always wondered if someone hit her front end (the damage to the front of the vehicle), causing her to pull over and when she was at the back of the RAV4, she was hit with something (the blood spatter on the back door and the missing RAV4 tool from her kit). What I did like about the video is that it showed us just how quick this could have happened. How quick she could be there and leave... how SA went out, back in and out of his trailer, how he could see a vehicle turning at the corner by the highway, how Bobby would not have been able to see TH from where he said he did, the video of going down the road and going to Kuss Rd. It sure gave me a perspective that a google map just couldn't.

 

[Karinna]

You actually believe that someone came forward 10+ years later and said he saw Halbach's RAV4. Why did this person wait all this time to come forward even if Colborn had poo-pooed him away ? Obviously, it wasn't that important for him to come forward and testify during SA's trial as that in and of itself would've possibly exonerated SA. Not only that, Buting/Strang could've asked Colborn on the stand why he didn't take the report and file it.

How did he know the car was Teresa's and not another RAV4 ? Anyone in Twin Rivers can now come forward and say they saw Teresa's car between 10/31 and 11/4.

BBM, Why not? It's not as if anyone paid it any attention beforehand 10+ years ago.
And i bet no one ever thought back then how this would all come back to bite them with KZ taking on the case now either, and a Netflix MAM 1 & 2 to question the whole shoddy case. All IMO

 

[Karinna]

BBM - where is the evidence that this is true ? Maybe the day planner was left at the house.

Maybe you should ask KZ those questions.
She is after all the legal expert on this case, and doesn't have the title of being one of the best wrongful convictions attorney's in the country for no reason. She is awesome IMO.

 

[Sustained]

I don't necessarily think it happened the way the video showed; however, it does show that it "could have happened" and shows the time frames of how long everything could take. But I will try to answer as if I believe it... and will answer what I can...

1. Kuss Rd is walking distance from the Avery lot. Wouldn't have been hard for anyone to do, including Bobby.

2. There is evidence that the burn pit was not the primary burn site. The fact that there were bones found in at least one barrel behind the Dassey house, and bones found in the quarry owned by Manitowoc County, indicate that the burn site could have been in barrel's, in the quarry, and some moved. IF it was Bobby, Bobby had from the 31st until the 4th/5thish to burn the body, and move the bones. If the body was burned elsewhere, say the quarry for example, and LE wanted to "help" the case against SA, this is where I believe they found them and moved them. The investigation of the bones was the most mishandled evidence in this case IMO. There are no photo's of the bones in situ, no gridding, and even the States expert, Ertl, said in an email to Fassbender that he did not take any photo's of the bones because it was obvious it had been altered before he got there. That is telling IMO.

3. I'm not sure why you are assuming that LE needed to make a connection with Bobby to have found and planted the license plates? Maybe I missed something in the video/theory? I think it's very possible that Bobby moved the RAV4 himself, and/or put the plates where they were found?

4. The key. The key was the valet key, not the main key. The other part of the lanyard was found in the middle console of her RAV4. Where are her other keys? Out of all the evidence, regardless of whether SA did it or not, I do believe that the key was planted by LE. Possibly just to ensure a reason to arrest/convict Avery.

5. Roland Johnson. He owned the trailer, and he owned the gun. His testimony can be found here: http://www.stevenaverycase.org/wp-c...rial-Transcript-Day-19-2007Mar08.pdf#page=148 He says he shot the gun all over the yard, around the garage, and at the door of the garage. That would make it pretty easy to either kick or move a spent shell/bullet into the garage over the years. He lived there for many many years. He said he never cleaned up the spent shells/bullets over the years either. Would make it pretty easy for LE to find one to plant some evidence on too, wouldn't it? It wouldn't be like it was an anomaly there.

6. The quarry... or burn barrels? seems like KZ has some evidence that there were more than just the pelvic bones that had cut marks and it's possible that she was indeed dismembered, which only makes sense if she was burned in a barrel. I guess it's possible it could have been done in a barrel at the quarry and moved later too?

Like I said, I don't necessarily believe the video. I just can't see her pulling over for someone guy following behind her. I have always wondered if someone hit her front end (the damage to the front of the vehicle), causing her to pull over and when she was at the back of the RAV4, she was hit with something (the blood spatter on the back door and the missing RAV4 tool from her kit). What I did like about the video is that it showed us just how quick this could have happened. How quick she could be there and leave... how SA went out, back in and out of his trailer, how he could see a vehicle turning at the corner by the highway, how Bobby would not have been able to see TH from where he said he did, the video of going down the road and going to Kuss Rd. It sure gave me a perspective that a google map just couldn't.

Missy - thank you for the detailed reply. For me to change my mind I had to consider the totality of the evidence. There were just too many pieces that I had to manipulate in my mind to make the "Avery was framed" theory work.

As you know, we and others can go back and forth for days on theories, evidence, interviews, etc. To me, each of the little pieces can be ripped apart but to me the puzzle as a whole points at SA and to some degree BD. And finally on the many statements given by the Avery family, I have no doubt that some if not all of the Averys lied to either police, investigators, or at trial and may still be lying. Most mothers like BT would do anything to get her son home and make sure another son doesn't replace him.

 

[Karinna]

And one of the biggest "tells" for me that Steven Avery didn't commit this crime against TH is that he is willing to do whatever it takes to prove it, no matter what test or whatever they want him to do he is okay with it all.
That's not what a guilty person would do IMO, because they would be too worried about revealing their actual guilt.

 

[Sustained]

Maybe you should ask KZ those questions.
She is after all the legal expert on this case, and doesn't have the title of being one of the best wrongful convictions attorney's in the country for no reason. She is awesome IMO.

I'm sure you know that KZ denied Avery's case before she saw MaM1. And she spends plenty of time reviewing cases before making a decision whether to accept them.

While KZ is to be admired for her work on Ferguson & others, I think taking the Avery case was strictly for publicity. And not guilty does not always mean innocent. She is facing a tough road in this one even if BD has not "confessed".

 

[Sustained]

And one of the biggest "tells" for me that Steven Avery didn't commit this crime against TH is that he is willing to do whatever it takes to prove it, no matter what test or whatever they want him to do he is okay with it all.
That's not what a guilty person would do IMO, because they would be too worried about revealing their actual guilt.

Anyone in jail serving LWOP would do the same - they've got nothing to lose. His DNA has already been found so once again, nothing to lose.

Where are the results of Avery's lie detector tests ?

 

[CoolJ]

Oh Sustained, There is so much misinformation in your posts that i don't know where to start. I am not saying that to chastise you, but there has been so much new information over the past 3 years that it is understandable how most people get left behind on the facts of this case.

In the interest of Justice for Teresa, I will do my best to respond to your posts and clear up any confusion you and others may be having with regards to the facts as we now know them.

Needless to say, the states narrative(s) used to convict these two men (one of them a boy at the time) is the most far fetched theory of all at this point.

 

[ClockworkLemon]

For those of you who subscribe to KZ's latest theory that TH drove away that Bobby flagged her down on Kuss Road and killed her ...

1. Since Bobby had his own vehicle, who drove the Rav4 back and put it on the Avery lot ?
2. What did Bobby do with TH's body on 10/31 - immediately burn it in Steven's burn pit ? Steven says he was home all afternoon and night, so he would've seen Bobby. As would have Brendan.
3. How did police make the connection with Bobby so they could easily find the Rav4 and get the license plate to put in the car in the salvage yard ?
4. Where did police get the key to frame Steven ? Or did Bobby put it in Steven's trailer ?
5. Who shot the 22 in Steven's garage and why would anyone shoot a gun in a garage unless they were trying to kill someone or something ? Brendan admits to being in the garage with Steven cleaning.
6. Where did Bobby burn the body so police could move the bones later to SA's burn pit ?

Lots of great questions! Ok, this is to my knowledge and based off of KZ in MaM2.
1. KZ doesn’t cover this specifically but implies possibly Steven Tadych helped him. There was also a possible temporary burial sight, maybe he buried her so they could move the car. Her car was reportedly found on a different road per a “new witness” KZ found. He supposedly told Colburn (I think that’s the officers name), then Colburn calls the plates in but doesn’t report the vehicle as found, that’s when KZ thinks the vehicle was moved by the police, to SA’s property.

2. Supposedly there is burned bones in the quarry, and two burn barrels, I believe. That’s definitely a mystery but KZ believes they were not burned on Avery property but moved there.

3. This is a long story, I’ll try to keep it short: KZ thinks Teressa’s ex boyfriend helped the police move the car. He then communicates with Theresa’s aunt to look at the Avery lot for her car. Supposedly TH’s aunt had a direct line to the cops, she calls and says she finds the car. Bobby is not involved here. KZ thinks he benefits from this, obviously, as it framed SA. So, she thinks the cops framed SA but someone else killed TH.

4. KZ thinks it could be from her home. The police took several things from her residence.

5. The guy who rented Steven his trailer said that people shoot guns around there all the time, including himself. Mostly to kill rodents and such. It’s not unusual, according to him, for people in rural areas to shoot their guns at various critters on the property.

6. I don’t think KZ thinks the cops moved the bones but that the killer did. I don’t recall a detailed theory on where she was burned. I know the quarry is a key place because that’s where the cadaver dogs hit but the expert she had said a burn barrel would be a more efficient way to burn the body.

 

[Sustained]

Oh Sustained, There is so much misinformation in your posts that i don't know where to start. I am not saying that to chastise you, but there has been so much new information over the past 3 years that it is understandable how most people get left behind on the facts of this case.

In the interest of Justice for Teresa, I will do my best to respond to your posts and clear up any confusion you and others may be having with regards to the facts as we now know them.

Needless to say, the states narrative(s) used to convict these two men (one of them a boy at the time) is the most far fetched theory of all at this point.

The only new information I'm aware of is what KZ concocted via her evidence tests and theories. Those are not facts, but please do enlighten me to the "facts".