SURPRISE HEARING Friday 18th August

[indicat]

Natalie Maines is one of the greatest singers alive, a political hero and a national treasure. I'm sorry if some people get upset when a woman speaks her mind.

My point was that the government always has tremendous, even overwhelming, resources. I know the WM3 supporters raised a lot of money, but I seriously doubt the total comes close to resources of the police and prosecutors.

You have your opinion and I have mine. As a mother whose son served in Afghanistan and put himself in danger for our country I consider him a political hero and national treasure not someone who just gives lip service thank you very much.

 

[deelytful1]

Respectfully shortened.

The big difference with this case, IMO, is that Mumia Abu Jamal is a BLACK man, he supposedly shot a POLICE OFFICER, and he was active in the BLACK PANTHERS.

:doh:

 

[indicat]

Here is a short list of women that are true national treasures and political heros:
Rosa Parks
Molly Pitcher
Clara Barton
Harriet Tubman
Abigail Adams
Susan B Anthony
Lucy Stone
Elizabeth Cady Stanton

You can read their inspiring biographies online.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!!!

 

[maxicut]

If one believes some of the posts here, the WM3 "got one over on the justice system" because their legions of supporters overwhelmed the poor, helpless little state of Arkansas.

Perfectly stated. The West Memphis 3 moo, did not get anything over on the justice system. The justice system failed these 3 now young men miserably. Police interrogations without legal counsel? Interrogations without parents present when a child under 18 is questioned? A trial made out of playdough facts?

All preposterous, bordering on illegal questioning and harassment.
moo

 

[gitana1]

Respectfully snipped by me

Do you have answers to your questions are they just questions that you'd like answers to? Because I don't have the answers but I do agree with what you have asked.

I am torn between this because I would never admit to guilt if I didn't do it. But I also wouldn't want to sit in prison one day more than I already had. The state HAD to be worried about something - the boys were going to be granted a new trial in December. But the boy's lawyers had to be nervous too since they told them to plead guilty. They probably agreed to disagree??? I don't know. But if you have answers to your questions or even opinions, I'd love to hear them. Thanks in advance.

I suppose my questions are rhetorical. I have never, ever heard of an Alford Plea post conviction and sentencing. Especially when the state won two life sentences and the ultimate, the death penalty.

I do not believe the evidence is what many opponents believe it to be. I do not think the WM3 would be re-convicted at a new trial without the Satanic Panic of the 80's early 90's in play. But if they feel it is conclusive of the guilt of these three guys, why on earth would the state agree to release them from death row and life sentences, already obtained, when the possibility of a new trial was not yet guaranteed? Especially in the face of such horribly gruesome murders of three sweet, innocent little boys?

In other words, if the state knows these three are guilty, the evidence that helped convict them remains, they have already been tried, convicted and sentenced to the ultimate, and hopes of a new trial or release may be years down the road, if ever, this unprecedented plea deal makes absolutely no sense - unless they know the convictions were bogus.

The above, plus the ability of the state to save face by being able to state that the three have pled guilty and the ability of the state to save money by precluding any civil payout to the three, via a "guilty" plea, is why I believe the state agreed to this deal.

I think that this plea deal screams loudly that something stunk pretty intensely with the prosecution, trial and conviction of the three.

 

[deelytful1]

I think that this plea deal screams loudly that something stunk pretty intensely with the prosecution, trial and conviction of the three.

respectfully snipped

AMEN!

 

[gitana1]

You have your opinion and I have mine. As a mother whose son served in Afghanistan and put himself in danger for our country I consider him much more a political hero and national treasure thank you very much.

He is. But I don't think Nova's statement is meant to put Mains above any United States soldier.

I don't see Mains as a national treasure, but I do respect anyone willing to buck the tide and be called a traitor or unpatriotic, in an effort to speak out against a war in which our heroes are being killed (Iraq), when the reasons for that war were manufactured. Very many of our boys and girls over there feel the very same way as Mains when it comes to our reasons for being in Iraq.

Afghanistan is a completely different subject.

I hope your dear son stays safe and comes home soon. :blowkiss:

ETA: Oops! It looks like he may be home! If so, give him a big hug from all of us websleuthers!

 

[Wishbone]

HBO reworks film in wake of #WM3 verdict
snipped
"We were putting the film to bed," Berlinger told TheWrap. "We have to rush back to New York so we can work through the weekend and change the ending to a happier ending."

http://wm3org.typepad.com/blog/2011/08/hbo-reworks-film-in-wake-of-wm3-verdict.html

Documentary filmmaker opens up about West Memphis Three

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/sns-rt-film-us-westmemphistre77j01w-20110819,0,7211233.story

 

[maxicut]

Having a child a child that is Bipolar I. When he was in his teen years also DX with psychotic tendencies. This included 13 hospitalizations within a years time and a long term care facility for 9 months. He was given MULTIPLE diagnoses in that time frame. He also in his severe manic times also heard voices and vocalized very bizarre statements. He also for shock value said and did some disturbing things. His meds were changed as frequently as his hospitalizations.
.

Shorten due to length of post.

gelfie68,
Late last night I attempted to read this thread. I stopped when I came to your post. Why? Because I could sense your pain. People who follow true crimes here or on any other forum are sleuthers not detectives, not any form of LE. I know WS has LE who post here once in a while.

People who post and offer medical and psychological advice on any forum, people who offer psychological assessments are not physicians or Psychologist.
Remember that, please don't allow these post to cause you pain.

Hugs and warm wishes to you and your loved one.

 

[indicat]

He is. But I don't think Nova's statement is meant to put Mains above any United States soldier.

I don't see Mains as a national treasure, but I do respect anyone willing to buck the tide and be called a traitor or unpatriotic, in an effort to speak out against a war in which our heroes are being killed (Iraq), when the reasons for that war were manufactured. Very many of our boys and girls over there feel the very same way as Mains when it comes to our reasons for being in Iraq.

Afghanistan is a completely different subject.

I hope your dear son stays safe and comes home soon. :blowkiss:

ETA: Oops! It looks like he may be home! If so, give him a big hug from all of us websleuthers!

I understand that, but having many sons who were thinking of joining up at the time Maines said what she did is how I know about it. I just have no respect for what she said or how she handled herself and it pushes a button in me when she is called a "hero". It's just one more reason I'm not a fan of celebrity bandwaggons.
Thank you for your kind words and even more so thank you for your posts, I respect the way you present the facts.

ETA: I worded this weird, sorry.

 

[SheBoss]

As to no other physical evidence, there were footprints apparently coming out of the discovery ditch made by adult tennis shoes that were said to be consistent to mens' size nine and a half or ten. Terry Hobbs wears size nine and a half. The tennis shoes Terry Hobbs was wearing around this time disappeared. The WM3 all wore boots.

BBM.

I'm not a huge poster on this board, but I have studied this case comprehensively. I mostly agree with everything you've said except this 1 item. MissKelley was wearing Adidas tennis shoes. He gave them away within the next 48 hours because he "didn't want to look at them anymore". I have no idea what shoe size he was. Just sayin'.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

Respectfully shortened.

The big difference with this case, IMO, is that Mumia Abu Jamal is a BLACK man, he supposedly shot a POLICE OFFICER, and he was active in the BLACK PANTHERS.

Joe Giarratano is the man whose case I have been working on off and on for the last 12 years. He is white. All of my volunteer work has been post conviction capital cases and although I am not an attorney, I have never, ever seen anything like this release. And to be honest I am not sure how it is even possible since there are procedural rules, but I work cases in Virginia, not AR. In Joe's case, he had the following supporters in 1991, when he was taken off of death row with a conditional pardon and "strong recommendation for a new trial" by our then governor:

James J. Kilpatrick - Columnist
The HonorabLe Benjamin R. Civiletti - former U.S. Attorney General
Joseph Rauh, Jr. -co-founder, Americans for Democratic Action
Richard Viguerie - Chair, United Conservatives of America
The Honorable Stephen H. Sachs - former Attorney General of Maryland
The Honorable Ramsey Clark - former U.S. Attorney General
The Honorable George McGovern - Democratic Party Candidate for U.S. president
Pat Riley -former Coach, LA Lakers
Ed Garvey - Executive Director, NFL players, Union
Oliver Stone - Producer Director
Richard and Dorothea Morefield - retired U.S. Diplomat
Mike Farrell - Actor/Activist
Dr. Patch Adams - Doctor
Jack Lemmon - Actor
Colman McCarthy - Columnist
Courtland Milloy - Columnist
The Honorable John B. Anderson - Independent Party Candidate for U.S. President
The Honorable Edmund M. Reggie -Retired Judge
William Styron - Author
Shelley Fabares - Actress
Roy Scheider - Actor
Mary Steenburgen - Actress
The Honorable Charles H. Percy - former U. S. Senator, Chair Senate Foreign Relations Committee
Joshua Mailman - Member. Democratic Business Council
Joan Baez - Musician, Executive Director Humanitas
Eugenie Ross Lemming - Writer/Producer
Ronald Hampton - Executive Director, National Black Police Association
Anthony G. Amsterdam - Professor of Law, New York University
David J. Townsend - PoIitical Consultant
Haskell Wexler - Academy Award Winning Cinematographer
The Reverend Joseph B. Ingle - Nobel Peace Prize Nominee
Jonathan Gradess - Executive Director, New York State Defenders Association
Peter Yarrow - Musician, "Peter, PauI and Mary"
Mike Mitlemann - Professor of Lawr University of Maryland
Casey Kasem - Nationally Syndicated Radio/Television Host
Thomas R. McBurney - Management Advisor
Gordon Freedman - Producer Author
David W. Rintels - Producer
Steve Allen - Actor
Robert Johnson - Professor of Justicer Law and Society, American University
Brad Buckner - Producer Paramount
Katie Boyle - Producer, CBS News
Charolett Goodwin - Acting President, Pax World Foundation
Azie Taylor Morton - Executive Directorr The Human Rights Project
Robert Foxworth - Actor' Director
Scott Landis - Agent
Douglas K. Baungardner - former Virginia Commonwealth Attorney
The Honorable Benjamin Lee Bird - former Judge
The Rt. Rev. C. Charles Vache - Bishop of the Diocese of Southern Virginia
The Most Rev. Walter F. Sullivan - Bishop of the Diocese of Richmond
Leslie Byrne - Delegate' Virginia Legislature
Samuel Glasscock - Delegate' Virglinia Legislature
Mary Marshall - Delegate' Virginia Legislature
Thomas Michie - Senatorr Virginia Legislature
Charles J. Colgan - Senator, Virginia Legislature
Moody E. Stallings, Jr. - Senator, Virginia Legislature
Kevin G. Miller - Senator, Virginia Legislature
Tom Proulx - Chair, Nelson County Demoeratic Committee
Edward O. Henneman - Chair, Rockbridge County Democratic Committee
Scotty R. Rose - Chair Dickenson County Democratic Committee
Robert C. Emerson - Chair, York County Democratic Committee
Joseph Emerson - Member' Virginia Democratic Party State Central Committee
Frank O'Leary - Treasurer, Arlington County
Garrison Ellis - Editor, Virginia Country Manazine
Douglas Cohn - Ed itor , Assoc iated Features , fnc .
John Horan - Editor, The Northern Virginia Daily
Reedville Fishermen's Association
Unitarian Unilateralist Association
American Baptist Churches, USA
American Ethieal Union
Mennonite central committee, DC office
National Black Police Association

Although not the big name singers and stars of today, by looking at who some of these people are, one would think that their opinions would carry more weight than those like Natalie Maines. But still he sits there waiting on that new trial, 20 years after the governor recommended one and 32+ years after being imprisoned. Unfortunately, a governor's recommendation carries no weight here and when the AG was asked to allow Giarratano a new trial he was told that "evidence of innocence is irrelevant" because we have procedures here. And then when I went in for a driving on a suspended license charge in front of Joe's former prosecutor, he knew who I was and what I was doing for Joe and told me that since the ticket I had received that cause me to lose my license was issues on April 11th, 1985, making me 9 years old, the suspension of my license was "clearly the state's error, but we have PROCEDURES here in Virginia and had not followed them." When he said procedures, he said it very loudly and even stood up. Then he sentenced me to 10 days in jail suspended and court costs and fines totaling over $500 that had to be paid right then or I would go immediately to jail to serve my 10 days.

Please excuse the typos, as I copied them from an old PDF here: http://www.joegcampaign.org/1991 Grace Cmte Support List.pdf

All of these people singed the following form: http://www.joegcampaign.org/JBI - 1990 GRACE Cmte SoP.pdf
More on Joe and this case can be found here:
A governor’s doubt of a man’s guilt isn’t enough in Virginia
http://natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2000c/091500/091500p.htm

and all over the internet, but he wasn't released like these guys. Our state absolutely, under no circumstances will admit a mistake even if the Pope himself supports a case (I know--Pope John Paul II wrote to the governor on behalf of Joe). Most states would rather not admit an error. The Alford plea in this case, I believe, got them around that. But I am still not sure how, because I have never heard of them doing anything like this.

Okay! I'm off to go find info on candlewax.

 

[SheBoss]

No. In fact, I'm not sure at all how it worked. They were already sentenced. They were serving their sentences. There was no new trial granted. I would think it would be appropriate if there was a new trial granted and they struck this plea deal but this happened before such an occurrence. I don't practice criminal law so I can't tell ya', but it is very, very unprecedented and I do not believe it has ever happened before.

Respectfully snipped by me...

I'm no attorney either, however, from what I've seen and read, it kinda went down like this...

WM3's Lawyers went to the state with this deal. The state was already sweating about this case as it was looking really good for the judge to demand a retrial based on the evidentary hearing in Dec. The state knows it would have a massive problem winning this case 18 years later due to locating witnesses, bad memories, possible damaged or misplaced evidence (I'm NOT saying that happened, just that it could have), etc, etc, etc. So they were iffy on the retrial. While the WM3 felt pretty good about it, they still had to get through the hearing, set a date for a new trial, and win that trial - and none of this being set in stone. While all of this is going on, they have to sit in prison. So, this was their chance to get out of jail right now and it was the state's chance to possibly dodge and overturned conviction and save the state of AR a ton of money in a new trial. Bottom line: The inmates walk free (with the 21 year suspended) while the state saves face and saves money. They know if the WM3 screw up again, they land right back in the slammer.

If the possibility of a new trial were not looming, I don't think they could have made this plea. However, I agree with you, it looks like folks were jumping the gun a little in not making sure a new trial was granted. Who knows? Maybe the supporters are right and the state knew they had the wrong men?

Also, the judge in the open hearing Friday stated (I'm pretty sure) that this is unprescendented as this plea has pretty much only been used in the supreme court. I do think they set a prescident today. I wonder who else will try to use this plea?

 

[indicat]

Now that the state of Arkansas has done this for what seems the first time will it stick? It can't be undone can it?

 

[Wishbone]

snipped
Questions you'd like to ask about the unexpected and dramatic developments last week in the West Memphis Three case?

You're in luck.


The Arkansas Times, in partnership with the Clinton School for Public Service, is sponsoring a discussion on the case at 6 p.m. Thursday, Aug. 25, at the Clinton School.

Confirmed participants:

* Prosecuting Attorney Scott Ellington of Jonesboro, who agreed to the plea bargain that resulted in release of the three defendants in the case after almost 18 years in prison.

* Arkansas Times contributing editor Mara Leveritt, who's made a vocational life's work of writing about the case and who's book, "Devil's Knot," is soon to be adapted for a movie.

* Capi Peck, the Little Rock restaurateur who led Arkansas Take Action, a group that mobilized support for the Three's release and is working now on a pardon campaign.

* Pat Benca, the Little Rock lawyer for Damien Echols.

* Jeff Rosenzweig, the Little Rock lawyer for Jessie Misskelley Jr.

* Blake Hendrix, Little Rock lawyer for Jason Baldwin.

http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlog/archives/2011/08/22/west-memphis-3-qanda-set-thursday

 

[gitana1]

Respectfully snipped by me...

I'm no attorney either, however, from what I've seen and read, it kinda went down like this...

WM3's Lawyers went to the state with this deal. The state was already sweating about this case as it was looking really good for the judge to demand a retrial based on the evidentary hearing in Dec. The state knows it would have a massive problem winning this case 18 years later due to locating witnesses, bad memories, possible damaged or misplaced evidence (I'm NOT saying that happened, just that it could have), etc, etc, etc. So they were iffy on the retrial. While the WM3 felt pretty good about it, they still had to get through the hearing, set a date for a new trial, and win that trial - and none of this being set in stone. While all of this is going on, they have to sit in prison. So, this was their chance to get out of jail right now and it was the state's chance to possibly dodge and overturned conviction and save the state of AR a ton of money in a new trial. Bottom line: The inmates walk free (with the 21 year suspended) while the state saves face and saves money. They know if the WM3 screw up again, they land right back in the slammer.

If the possibility of a new trial were not looming, I don't think they could have made this plea. However, I agree with you, it looks like folks were jumping the gun a little in not making sure a new trial was granted. Who knows? Maybe the supporters are right and the state knew they had the wrong men?

Also, the judge in the open hearing Friday stated (I'm pretty sure) that this is unprescendented as this plea has pretty much only been used in the supreme court. I do think they set a prescident today. I wonder who else will try to use this plea?

Okay. I was trying to update a post and I blew it and deleted it on accident it. Then I found it on a backpage so I cut and pasted it and reposted it. Sorry for the confusion.

But, I was wondering how they accomplished this technically. I found the answer:

To facilitate the new verdicts, Laser first ordered a conditional new trial in the case that has drawn international attention since the convictions in 1994. Once the new trial was ordered, the men read their pleas.
http://www.paragoulddailypress.com/articles/2011/08/20/top_story/doc4e4fd25dc7d29058784712.txt

 

[indicat]

I don't think the state was affraid of some powerful celebs. I absolutley think it was an ego, save face move. When trying to decide my personal opinion about guilt I take the celeb involvment and throw it out. Trying to figure out how I feel personally is the only reason I'm here. As far as legally, I believe the state blew it in the beginning of this case.

 

[wonders]

Can anyone tell me why all the big media networks aren't on this like white on rice?
I had In Sessions on all morning as it is only on till 1pm here and have flipped to CNN, Fox and MSNBC and I haven't seen anyone cover this as I think they should. Is it just me or is that weird?

 

[HRCODEPINK]

Respectfully snipped by me...

I'm no attorney either, however, from what I've seen and read, it kinda went down like this...

WM3's Lawyers went to the state with this deal. The state was already sweating about this case as it was looking really good for the judge to demand a retrial based on the evidentary hearing in Dec. The state knows it would have a massive problem winning this case 18 years later due to locating witnesses, bad memories, possible damaged or misplaced evidence (I'm NOT saying that happened, just that it could have), etc, etc, etc. So they were iffy on the retrial. While the WM3 felt pretty good about it, they still had to get through the hearing, set a date for a new trial, and win that trial - and none of this being set in stone. While all of this is going on, they have to sit in prison. So, this was their chance to get out of jail right now and it was the state's chance to possibly dodge and overturned conviction and save the state of AR a ton of money in a new trial. Bottom line: The inmates walk free (with the 21 year suspended) while the state saves face and saves money. They know if the WM3 screw up again, they land right back in the slammer.

If the possibility of a new trial were not looming, I don't think they could have made this plea. However, I agree with you, it looks like folks were jumping the gun a little in not making sure a new trial was granted. Who knows? Maybe the supporters are right and the state knew they had the wrong men?

Also, the judge in the open hearing Friday stated (I'm pretty sure) that this is unprescendented as this plea has pretty much only been used in the supreme court. I do think they set a prescident today. I wonder who else will try to use this plea?

I understand how it worked as far as what the public sees and I think that when gitana1 said that she doesn't understand how it happened she means the same thing that I do when I say that I don't understand how it happened (if not I apologize gitana1, and please feel free to call me out on it).

What the public sees in these cases is one thing, but there are tons of procedural rules that the public usually never sees that are behind the scenes. In my state, this NEVER would have happened. If the person is not granted a new trial, then their only recourse is a conditional or absolute pardon from a governor. I am happy that they have been freed, but I don't understand how they got around the procedural rules to let this happen. Having already been sentenced, normally someone can't give a plea after trial. It would stand to reason that the only way they could give a plea is after the hearing in December and even then, only if they had been granted the new trial. A new trial here is up to the attorney general if the court won't or can't grant a new trial due to rules of procedure. I would be very interested to find out how they were able to pull this off.

 

[HRCODEPINK]

Okay. I was trying to update a post and I blew it and deleted it on accident it. Then I found it on a backpage so I cut and pasted it and reposted it. Sorry for the confusion.

But, I was wondering how they accomplished this technically. I found the answer:

To facilitate the new verdicts, Laser first ordered a conditional new trial in the case that has drawn international attention since the convictions in 1994. Once the new trial was ordered, the men read their pleas.
http://www.paragoulddailypress.com/articles/2011/08/20/top_story/doc4e4fd25dc7d29058784712.txt

Ugh! My computer is running so slow today, so I was late with my post above. Thank you for this gitana1! That makes perfect sense now!