SURPRISE HEARING Friday 18th August

DNA Solves
DNA Solves
DNA Solves
If there is new evidence that would show the guilt of the WM3, could a new trial be ordered, or would that be "Double Jeopardy?" I heard from Wikipedia that the judge ordered a new trial for Echols and Baldwin. Or does the Alford Plea change all that? Here is what Wikipedia says:

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Memphis_Three"]West Memphis Three - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Or if the new DNA evidence does not link them to this crime, could and would they be exonerated once and for all?

I don't think they are totally free, because the judge said, if they offend again, they can face another approximate 20 years in prison.

Satch
 
If there is new evidence that would show the guilt of the WM3, could a new trial be ordered, or would that be "Double Jeopardy?" I heard from Wikipedia that the judge ordered a new trial for Echols and Baldwin. Or does the Alford Plea change all that? Here is what Wikipedia says:

West Memphis Three - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or if the new DNA evidence does not link them to this crime, could and would they be exonerated once and for all?

I don't think they are totally free, because the judge said, if they offend again, they can face another approximate 20 years in prison.

Satch

I am not sure how it works in AR but in VA, they would have to petition the governor for an absolute pardon. It is all about what the procedural rules are there. And all of this is providing that AR really does look at the new evidence, which will only happen, IMO, under extreme public pressure.

ETA: There is a possibility, with a governor's permission that they could waive their right to double jeopardy protection and get a new trial, but it is an awful lot cheaper for a governor to grant the absolute pardon than to go through three more new trials, so I imagine that a pardon would be what actually happens, if anything. States don't like to admit mistakes. Especially in death penalty cases. When mistakes are made, it not only makes them look bad, but it makes the death penalty look bad and fuels the abolition movement.
 
Here's the way I understand it:

1) Judge Laser had to overturn the original verdicts in order to accept the Alford Plea on the newer, reduced charges. IMO, this is something that tends to get lost in the shuffle here. The original verdicts were overturned.

2) What happened on August 19, 2011, was, in essence, a new trial. The three pleaded guilty under Alford, were adjudged guilty by the judge and then were sentenced to time served plus a 10 year SIS. Yes, they could go back to prison if they violate the terms of their SIS, but it would be for a new crime, not the murders. The sentencing could be more severe than the new crime would normally carry as the previous murder convictions would be mitigating circumstances.

3) Scott Ellington has agreed to look at any "compelling evidence" and have the Arkansas State Crime Lab run the DNA through CODIS when Bode Laboratories is finished with it. He has said basically that any and all "new" evidence or further testing is to be funneled through the defense teams. He didn't really slam the door shut on the case; he left it cracked open just a bit.

4) If new evidence comes to light, the State will reopen the case, but it would be to pursue another suspect. If this happens, the State would set aside the verdicts in the August 19th mini-trial, and the WMFree would be exonerated. Also, therefore, the SIS would be lifted and for them, legally, it would be as if the whole debacle never happened.

IMO, the WMFree cannot be retried for the murders not just because of double jeopardy (which would probably be applicable) but because any further trial would be based on information from the defense. It's highly unlikely that the defense would provide information incriminating to their clients (primarily because none exists and secondarily because it would not be helpful to their clients). So, any new trial would be with another defendant (or defendants).

I'm hopeful that in the not too distant future (hello, all you MST3K fans!), the evidence that the defense was to present at the hearing will become public knowledge. If it is as sensational as I believe it may be, IMO the public will place pressure on the State to exonerate the WMFree and reopen the case. The little boys deserve to have their killer in prison, not walking free as he has been for the past eighteen years.
 
Respectfully snipped from Compassionate Reader:

"SheBoss, As to the tennis shoes, Jessie gave them to Buddy Lucas. Buddy gave them to the police. They were compared to the shoe prints at the scene and were not a match."

Thanks, I thought this is what happened, but even my notes on this case are several pages long. It's getting harder and harder to find anything in them quickly. I just knew I remembered that JM said he was wearing Adidas tennis shoes and he gave them away. I couldn't remember if they were a match to the shoe print at RHH. Thanks Again!

Buddy was afraid of Jessie's friends and didn't want to give police shoes covered with blood because it might also implicate him. Buddy admitted that he gave the police the wrong shoes.

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/b_lucas_fogleman_phone_call.html
 
Buddy was afraid of Jessie's friends and didn't want to give police shoes covered with blood because it might also implicate him. Buddy admitted that he gave the police the wrong shoes.

http://callahan.8k.com/wm3/b_lucas_fogleman_phone_call.html

Please reread the entire phone conversation. The police collected two or three pairs of shoes from Buddy because he kept identifying more and more of them as the shoes Jessie gave him. Buddy was also afraid of the police and said that they yelled at him and he was scared of them, too. Buddy got some shoes from Jessie in November (nowhere around the time of the murders) because he had gotten his dirty and muddy. None of Buddy's shoes had blood on them, and none of them matched the prints found by the discovery ditch.

Buddy didn't say that he intentionally gave the police the wrong shoes; he simply said he was confused and scared because Durham (the polygrapher) was yelling at him. Of course, Fogleman wasn't too happy when Buddy tried to discuss this and kept wanting to change the subject. Do you know how Buddy and Jessie knew each other? They were school friends - in Special Education classes. This phone conversation shows just how confused Buddy was, but he continues to profess that he knew nothing about the murders and that Jessie gave him the blue and white Adidas shoes in November. Remember that the murders were in May of 1993 and the arrests were in June of 1993. There is no way that Jessie could have given Buddy shoes in November of 1993 because he was in custody. It would have had to have been November of 1992.

Bottom line, the shoes that Jessie gave to Buddy were not connected to the murder. Several pairs of Buddy's shoes were tested, and none of them had blood on them or matched the prints found at the discovery ditch. Buddy was confused and frightened by the policeman who yelled at him and he, like Jessie, said things that he thought they wanted to hear. When he told them that he didn't know anything about the murders, they yelled at him and told him he was lying. So, he starts giving them shoes that were supposedly from Jessie. Another example of the investigative tactics of the WMPD, especially when dealing with someone with reduced mental capabilities.
 
Has anyone heard anymore about the new evidence that was going to prove they are innocent?

I think that is the weirdest part of this is that within months of a hearing in front of a new judge, they decide not to go through with it.

Their defense attorneys go to a new prosecutor with 3-guilty pleas (although they were already convicted years ago). So they didn't want to present their 'new evidence' after all.

What must their supporters think of all the donations they have sent and all the donations the celebrities have given.

During any new interviews they are completely silent about 'new evidence', although I doubt that I would believe anything coming out of their mouths because they lie during interviews.

I would like to hear it from someone of authority, but the last time we did the prosecutor said that there was enough evidence to convict them if another trial took place.
 
Yeah, and the same prosecutor offered an Allford plea in return for time served. Weird, huh?

Why would the DA offer such a deal when the three were already in prison?

And don't kid yourself that the deal was offered by the defense. Damien's defense team approached the Attorney General with an offer of skipping the December hearing in return for a retrial. The AG passed it to the DA, and he refused. He then made a counter offer of a guilty plea in return for time served. The defense refused, and made a counter offer to negotiate, so then they all sat down around a table.

The Allford plea in return for time served is the result of the horse trading between the two sides. It says bugger all about guilt or innocence. It says that the state of Arkansas cannot afford to be sued, and the wm3 cannot afford to risk another 5 or so years in prison.
 
And btw, any of you who think they should have held out for new trials - can you answer me this? Would the prosecution have used the same "expert witness" to establish motive at a new trial? And if not, why not?

TIA.
 
Yeah, and the same prosecutor offered an Allford plea in return for time served. Weird, huh?

Why would the DA offer such a deal when the three were already in prison?

And don't kid yourself that the deal was offered by the defense. Damien's defense team approached the Attorney General with an offer of skipping the December hearing in return for a retrial. The AG passed it to the DA, and he refused. He then made a counter offer of a guilty plea in return for time served. The defense refused, and made a counter offer to negotiate, so then they all sat down around a table.

The Allford plea in return for time served is the result of the horse trading between the two sides. It says bugger all about guilt or innocence. It says that the state of Arkansas cannot afford to be sued, and the wm3 cannot afford to risk another 5 or so years in prison.

Three weeks ago defense attorneys approached prosecutors seeking the Alford plea option, Prosecutor Scott Ellington of Jonesboro said.

“At no time did we make an offer,” Ellington said. “The offer was made to us.”

Arkansas Attorney General Dustin McDaniel was contacted by defense council, and a meeting was arranged, Ellington said.

http://www.paragoulddailypress.com/a...9058784712.txt
 
And btw, any of you who think they should have held out for new trials - can you answer me this? Would the prosecution have used the same "expert witness" to establish motive at a new trial? And if not, why not?

TIA.

No, one of them is now dead, so they would not have been able to use the same expert witness as they had for some of the evidence.



In light of these circumstances I decided to entertain plea offers that were being proposed by the defense. I NEVER considered ANY arrangement that would negate the verdicts of those two juries. Guilt or Innocence was NEVER ON THE TABLE.

Today’s proceeding allows the defendants the freedom of speech to SAY they are innocent, but the FACT is, they just plead GUILTY. I strongly believe that the interests of justice have been served today.

On behalf of the State I have preserved the verdicts of those juries and averted more prolonged and costly trials and appeals in this case.

http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlo...ecutors-statement-on-west-memphis-3-plea-deal
 
Three weeks ago defense attorneys approached prosecutors seeking the Alford plea option, Prosecutor Scott Ellington of Jonesboro said.

“At no time did we make an offer,” Ellington said. “The offer was made to us.”

Arkansas Attorney General Dustin McDaniel was contacted by defense council, and a meeting was arranged, Ellington said.

http://www.paragoulddailypress.com/a...9058784712.txt

Sorry, but your link is broken. Also, I'm not sure why it's important who came up with the Alford Plea. What is important is that the prosecution agreed to it. If the defense teams were more intelligent and therefore more able to find a solution to the conundrum, so be it.

The original proposal was not the Alford Plea. Originally, all the defense attorneys wanted to do was to skip the evidentiary hearing and proceed directly to the new trials. That idea was not accepted. Benca and McDaniel were the first two to meet because they were friends from law school.

"The two attorneys met for a late lunch at the Little Rock Club on Wednesday, Aug. 3. They chatted a bit about their families, friends and school days. 'Then,' Benca said, 'the discussion turned to the possibility that Judge Laser would order new trials.'

As he and Braga had planned, Benca tried to keep the conversation's focus 'as simple as possible.' Benca bore down on the rationale that if Laser were to consider the juror misconduct issue, he would almost certainly order new trials.

Benca said McDaniel told him he 'still believed those boys were responsible for the crime.' Benca said the attorney general also informed him, 'that he didn't have the decision-making power: that was Scott Ellington's job.'

Still, Benca could see that McDaniel was listening closely to his idea that all parties could leap-frog over the hearing by agreeing to new trials beforehand. When Benca concluded, McDaniel responded, 'That's a big ask.'"

http://www.arktimes.com/gyrobase/the-big-ask/Content?oid=1888389&showFullText=true

However, Ellington was the one who presented the idea of the Alford Plea (which was agreed to through negotiations by both sides) to Judge Laser.

"The defense teams gave Ellington permission to approach Judge Laser ex parte, or outside of a formal hearing, to determine if he would consider the proposed pleas and if he had any suggestions, procedurally, for how the sides should go forward. Laser requested some additional language in the agreements pertaining to the Supreme Court's order, but other than that, Benca said, he generally accepted the plan."

http://www.arktimes.com/gyrobase/the-big-ask/Content?oid=1888389&showFullText=true

If the defense teams "gave Ellington permission" to present the Alford Plea to Judge Laser, that implies that he asked to present it. The entire article that I linked to is very informative, although it is long. It is a summary of much of the legal discussion since the ASSC ordered the evidentiary hearing.

Part of what is discussed in the article is the fact that no physical evidence exists to date that implicates the WMFree. It also mentions Ellington's misgivings as to being able to get a guilty verdict again. So, even if the Alford Plea was the defense teams' idea, the important thing is that both the prosecution and the judge accepted it. IIRC, that's what happens in a negotiation.

Ellington's statement that you quoted, like the plea itself, is IMO just an attempt to save face and placate those who might still somehow believe (erroneously, IMO) the WMFree to be guilty. I have no doubt but that Ellington wanted this case over and done. It would not be good to have this case still up in the air if he has political aspirations. That, and the fact that the cash-starved State of Arkansas is now free from the threat of a lawsuit, is why this deal happened so quickly.
 
No, one of them is now dead, so they would not have been able to use the same expert witness as they had for some of the evidence.

In light of these circumstances I decided to entertain plea offers that were being proposed by the defense. I NEVER considered ANY arrangement that would negate the verdicts of those two juries. Guilt or Innocence was NEVER ON THE TABLE.

Today’s proceeding allows the defendants the freedom of speech to SAY they are innocent, but the FACT is, they just plead GUILTY. I strongly believe that the interests of justice have been served today.

On behalf of the State I have preserved the verdicts of those juries and averted more prolonged and costly trials and appeals in this case.

More importantly, he kept the State of Arkansas from being sued for wrongful imprisonment. If he didn't believe on some level that a suit would result (after the new trials found the WMFree not guilty) why would it be so important that the possibility of a law suit was taken off the table?

http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlo...ecutors-statement-on-west-memphis-3-plea-deal

This is just more face-saving BS from Ellington. I seriously doubt that the WMFree are the first people in history to say that they are guilty for a crime which they didn't commit. In fact, that's the whole purpose of an Alford Plea - plead guilty while maintaining your innocence. It's like saying, "OK. I'll say the words that you want to hear, but I didn't do it." It's just like all of Jessie's statements.

If you listened to Ellington at the Q & A, he left the door open, however. He said that, if the defense wants to present more evidence to him, he'll consider it. He also said that he would have the State Crime Lab run the DNA through CODIS when the defense gets all results back. (BTW, that means that, at the time the guys were released, all DNA results were not back from Bode. I look forward to what is discovered when it is all tested.)
 
No, one of them is now dead, so they would not have been able to use the same expert witness as they had for some of the evidence.



In light of these circumstances I decided to entertain plea offers that were being proposed by the defense. I NEVER considered ANY arrangement that would negate the verdicts of those two juries. Guilt or Innocence was NEVER ON THE TABLE.

Today’s proceeding allows the defendants the freedom of speech to SAY they are innocent, but the FACT is, they just plead GUILTY. I strongly believe that the interests of justice have been served today.

On behalf of the State I have preserved the verdicts of those juries and averted more prolonged and costly trials and appeals in this case.

http://www.arktimes.com/ArkansasBlo...ecutors-statement-on-west-memphis-3-plea-deal

Lisa Sakevicius is dead, but she had nothing to do with establishing motive. I think you know which "expert witness" I'm asking about...
 
Lisa Sakevicius is dead, but she had nothing to do with establishing motive. I think you know which "expert witness" I'm asking about...

How can I read your mind, why don't you just say what you are talking about instead of making everyone guess what that might be???
 
How can I read your mind, why don't you just say what you are talking about instead of making everyone guess what that might be???

I don't want to lead anyone by the nose, but which of the prosecution's witnesses was called to establish motive? That's the "expert" that I, too, doubt would be called again if there were a new trial. I believe that makes it clear to whom we are referring.
 
I don't want to lead anyone by the nose, but which of the prosecution's witnesses was called to establish motive? That's the "expert" that I, too, doubt would be called again if there were a new trial. I believe that makes it clear to whom we are referring.

I cannot read your mind either. Sorry. Is this a guessing game here? Why don't you and the other "C" tell us what's on your mind.
 
That veritable gift to occultism, Dale Griffis. You think the prosecution would have called him to the stand if there had been another trial?
 

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