Syringe in bottle and traces of chloroform #2

[MD MOMMY]

Just my opinion, but I don't think GA or CA would ever allow meth production in their home, and I haven't heard any evidence that KC or any of her friends were involved with meth. Further, the chemicals involved smell, and KC would not be able to get away with hiding them in her room, IMO.

I don't think meth has any role in this killing.

Then we have CA accusing AH of shooting heroine..right? I wonder where she gathered that tid bit of information, or if it was just a figment of her imagination.

 

[RR0004]

If they took all that stuff the day Caylee was found, I wonder what tipped them off to take that stuff? It's not like the lab results were back b/c the items in question were just found. Hm..I'm sure someone has some insight.

I thought the Crystal Light was in the trash they picked up at the towyard (?).

They had that since July 16th...and obviously analyzed it.

 

[carrie]

Are you going to call NG with the update? Let her down easy Carrie..
BOMBSHELL! NO significant Chloroform found in syringe at dumpsite! Let's unleash the chemists..

LOL. Though, actually her distortion of the truth isn't funny at all.

You gave me an idea with this post . I went to her blog page at CNN's website and posted a comment on her "BOMBSHELL: CHLOROFORM in SYRINGE" article. There were 37 comments all singing her praises. I don't know if they'll actually let the comment show up on the site though because they screen the comments before they're allowed to go through. Will let you know.

Not that it'll do any good

 

[JWG]

Do you think it's possible that the roids were 'cut' with the other chemicals found in the syringe?
Lots of drugs are cut (often with toxic chemicals) several times over for maximum profit.

No, I don't think they were cut with the chemicals listed.

Without having gone completely through the toxicology report...allow me to go out on a limb oke: and describe what I think might tie everything together.

There are a number of compounds in common between the Gatorade bottle and syringe, but not with either of those two and the liquid from the Crystal Light bottle.

Not all compounds in the Gatorade bottle and syringe match, and those that do are not necessarily in the same proportion. The cause may be due to multiple sources contributing to the Gatorade bottle (perhaps two or three different cleaners) that are then imperfectly mixed. The syringe may have drawn from a region containing more of one cleaner, for example, than another.

The amount of testosterone found in the Gatorade bottle is trace. You thought the chloroform levels were small? Take a look at the testosterone levels. The levels in the syringe, however, are quite high. So perhaps a little of the residual testosterone in the syringe seeped into the Gatorade bottle during the months it lay on the woods. Or...the act of filling the syringe from the Gatorade bottle resulted in a small transfer.

So the syringe and the toxic brew might be the murder weapon. I have a hard time imagining that, though. Kids at that age tend to have a real fear of needles, so it would have to be done with surprised and quickly. How long would it take to kill a small child? I can imagine those chemicals being injected into a child would be painful and remain painful, so I would expect prolonged screaming. Could the duct tape have been used to silence the screaming? Sure...but I sense due to the similar lengths of each tape and the nice, even tears that whoever cut them and placed them had some patience. Again, just having trouble playing through the scene.

And yet...why else fill a syringe with a caustic chemical? :waitasec:

And yet again...why the very high presence of chloroform in the trunk? :waitasec:

As for the Crystal Light bottle, perhaps KC used it to inconspicuously take some cleaning solution out to the trunk at Tony's after discovering on the 23rd how bad the smell had become? The cleaner did not work, so plan B was grabbing the garbage bag for a smell cover story. Oh, and hey, with the bag being so convenient why not toss the bottle in there? :thumb:

 

[carrie]

I thought the Crystal Light was in the trash they picked up at the towyard (?).

They had that since July 16th...and obviously analyzed it.

You are correct. It was in the trash from the car at the towyard.

 

[carrie]

i was thinking the same thing.....unless she was trying to frame someone else......then she would need something to link that person to the crime.....

having that cyrstal light bottle left in a bag from TonE's house....left in the trunk of the car....car left at amscott.....hmmm....

just thinking out loud here

Gotcha. Definitely possible. I can totally see her trying to frame someone.

 

[cecybeans]

Well, so far we have two plastic drink bottles with way more dangerous chemicals than are normally found and the common denominator is KC. She had access to the trash bag she took from AL's (we don't know that the Crystal Lite bottle came from the apt simply because it appeared in the trash bag she had in her car). And her daughter's remains were found with another suspicious bottle right next to the skull.

I'm again wondering what kinds of chemicals come up when someone searches for "household weapons" and why this idiot girl could have had access to stuff we see as something that would not fit the bill for "recreational" anything but are potentially lethal cocktails. What the heck is in windshield wiper fluid I'm wondering? (remember those bozos who poured the blue stuff into paper cups and little kids drank them?)

 

[Leila]

OK, let's move on from chloroform since that proved to be a dead end. :banghead:

I took a look at what was found in the Gatorade bottle, the syringe, and the Crystal Light bottle. Here I summarize what the chemistry lab found. Later I will try to do the same for the toxicology lab (which is where the testosterone was noticed). I have sorted the compounds in order of greatest to least abundance, and I have added a little comment as to the possible purpose of the compound.

From the Gatorade bottle:

ethanol - Denatured ethanol is a solvent
dodecanol - Surfactant
limonene - Solvent
turpineol - Herbal oil
n-tridecan-1-ol - Used in cleaning solutions
2-methyl-1-undecanol - Used in cleaning solutions
7-Octen-2-ol, 2,6-dimethyl - Aromatic used in soaps
dodecane - Solvent
tetradecyl trifluoroacetate - Used in insecticides
1,7,7-trimethyl-bicyclo[2.2.1]hept-2-yl ester - ?
tert-butanol - Used to denature ethanol
eucolyptol - Frangance, insecticide
acetone - Used to denature ethanol
​

IMHO, it looks to me like the Gatorade bottle contained a household cleaner or possibly something like a degreaser. There may have been a mixture of cleaners. Clearly it was not Gatorade or anything one would want to ingest.

From the syringe:

dodecanol - Surfactant
Butylated Hydroxytoluene - Anti-oxidant used in food preservation and other industrial purposes
ethanol - Denatured alcohol is a solvent
limonene - Solvent
turpineol - Herbal oil
dodecane - Solvent
undecane - Attract moths, cockroaches
tetradecane - Cosmetic use?
​

As with the Gatorade bottle, the syringe contents suggest some form of a cleaner is present, although it does not appear to be identical to the contents found in the Gatorade bottle. Again, this appears to be a set of chemicals one would not expect to find in a syringe.

Given the testosterone was found in the toxicology analysis, my initial reaction is that the syringe was used to inject steroids and discarded. It was later found and used to hold a caustic substance.

From the Crystal Light bottle:

2-Butanol - Solvent, also converted to Butanone
methyl ethyl ketone - Solvent, denaturing agent, cleaning agent
Methyl Alcohol - Solvent
Disulfide, dimethyl - Insecticide - contributor of urine smell
P-cresol - Disinfectants, insecticides
Anisole - Aromatic in perfumes and insecticides
Methyl Isocyanide - Pesticides
cyclohexane, [(1-methylpropyl)thio]- - Fungicide, insecticide?
Trimethylamine - Manufacturing use. Main source of urine smell
Phenol - Antiseptic, herbicide
2-Nonanol, 5-ethyl- - Fungicide, insecticide?
Benzothiazole - Industrial use - binding agent?
1-Methoxycycloheptatriene - Use unknown, seems to be a neurotoxin
​

Once again, what appears to be cleaning fluid, insecticide, deodorizer, or some mixture of the above is found in the Crystal Light bottle. Not what one would expect to find.

I haven't read the entire previous thread.........just too much to keep up with. But has anyone mentioned that last December after Caylee's remains were found, and LE executed their search warrant on the Anthony home, they removed a lot of containers of insecticides and herbicides (weed killers) from the Anthony home?

Household cleaners, and agents for insect and weed control are poisons. Casey could have concocted a lethal cocktail from just the chemicals in the Anthony home.

 

[RR0004]

I haven't read the entire previous thread.........just too much to keep up with. But has anyone mentioned that last December after Caylee's remains were found, and LE executed their search warrant on the Anthony home, they removed a lot of containers of insecticides and herbicides (weed killers) from the Anthony home?

Household cleaners, and agents for insect and weed control are poisons. Casey could have concocted a lethal cocktail from just the chemicals in the Anthony home.

Yup...I mentioned it...and definitely think the liquid from the Crystal Light container had been analyzed by that time.

 

[carrie]

No, I don't think they were cut with the chemicals listed.

Without having gone completely through the toxicology report...allow me to go out on a limb oke: and describe what I think might tie everything together.

There are a number of compounds in common between the Gatorade bottle and syringe, but not with either of those two and the liquid from the Crystal Light bottle.

Not all compounds in the Gatorade bottle and syringe match, and those that do are not necessarily in the same proportion. The cause may be due to multiple sources contributing to the Gatorade bottle (perhaps two or three different cleaners) that are then imperfectly mixed. The syringe may have drawn from a region containing more of one cleaner, for example, than another.

The amount of testosterone found in the Gatorade bottle is trace. You thought the chloroform levels were small? Take a look at the testosterone levels. The levels in the syringe, however, are quite high. So perhaps a little of the residual testosterone in the syringe seeped into the Gatorade bottle during the months it lay on the woods. Or...the act of filling the syringe from the Gatorade bottle resulted in a small transfer.

So the syringe and the toxic brew might be the murder weapon. I have a hard time imagining that, though. Kids at that age tend to have a real fear of needles, so it would have to be done with surprised and quickly. How long would it take to kill a small child? I can imagine those chemicals being injected into a child would be painful and remain painful, so I would expect prolonged screaming. Could the duct tape have been used to silence the screaming? Sure...but I sense due to the similar lengths of each tape and the nice, even tears that whoever cut them and placed them had some patience. Again, just having trouble playing through the scene.

And yet...why else fill a syringe with a caustic chemical? :waitasec:

And yet again...why the very high presence of chloroform in the trunk? :waitasec:

As for the Crystal Light bottle, perhaps KC used it to inconspicuously take some cleaning solution out to the trunk at Tony's after discovering on the 23rd how bad the smell had become? The cleaner did not work, so plan B was grabbing the garbage bag for a smell cover story. Oh, and hey, with the bag being so convenient why not toss the bottle in there? :thumb:

JWG, can you (or anyone else out there) think of a possible scenario in which someone would mix these chemicals and the draw them into a syringe, as you speculate?

I mean someone other than KC. Imagine the syringe is completely unrelated to her and just a coincidence that it ended up near the remains (which is quite possible IMO). Can you think of a reason for someone to do that?

In my mind, while it seems quite possible the syringe has nothing to do w/ KC and is pure coincidence, it doesn't seem likely that some other unrelated person was attempting to harm or kill someone with "caustic" chemicals and their discarded syringe ended up near Caylee. KWIM?

 

[Harmony 2]

No, I don't think they were cut with the chemicals listed.

Without having gone completely through the toxicology report...allow me to go out on a limb oke: and describe what I think might tie everything together.

There are a number of compounds in common between the Gatorade bottle and syringe, but not with either of those two and the liquid from the Crystal Light bottle.

Not all compounds in the Gatorade bottle and syringe match, and those that do are not necessarily in the same proportion. The cause may be due to multiple sources contributing to the Gatorade bottle (perhaps two or three different cleaners) that are then imperfectly mixed. The syringe may have drawn from a region containing more of one cleaner, for example, than another.

The amount of testosterone found in the Gatorade bottle is trace. You thought the chloroform levels were small? Take a look at the testosterone levels. The levels in the syringe, however, are quite high. So perhaps a little of the residual testosterone in the syringe seeped into the Gatorade bottle during the months it lay on the woods. Or...the act of filling the syringe from the Gatorade bottle resulted in a small transfer.

So the syringe and the toxic brew might be the murder weapon. I have a hard time imagining that, though. Kids at that age tend to have a real fear of needles, so it would have to be done with surprised and quickly. How long would it take to kill a small child? I can imagine those chemicals being injected into a child would be painful and remain painful, so I would expect prolonged screaming. Could the duct tape have been used to silence the screaming? Sure...but I sense due to the similar lengths of each tape and the nice, even tears that whoever cut them and placed them had some patience. Again, just having trouble playing through the scene.

And yet...why else fill a syringe with a caustic chemical? :waitasec:

And yet again...why the very high presence of chloroform in the trunk? :waitasec:

As for the Crystal Light bottle, perhaps KC used it to inconspicuously take some cleaning solution out to the trunk at Tony's after discovering on the 23rd how bad the smell had become? The cleaner did not work, so plan B was grabbing the garbage bag for a smell cover story. Oh, and hey, with the bag being so convenient why not toss the bottle in there? :thumb:

HI JWG!!

Were these chemicals found anywhere else besides the Crystal Light bottle? Caylee's clothes? items at remains site? the trunk carpet? the trunk liner? etc.?

I notice alot of insectides listed and wondered if Casey may have thought of getting rid of the maggots and flies in her trunk.

 

[QuietStorm]

Maybe it's an incomplete batch. And I'm being serious. There is no lithium, or presence of lye. Maybe it's the "stock". Wonder if shake and bakers run around with a "rue" of sorts.

Hmm. One wonders. Driving home, I remembered something else that smells like urine, and that's ammonia. I looked at my Safeway Lemon-scented Ammonia All Purpose Cleaner and its ingredients are obscurely listed as ammonium hydroxide solution, surfacant, perfume, color, and clarifying agent. I'm going to call them tomorrow and ask for detailed chemical names, but many of these are types listed in JWG's listing of chemicals.

Also, when I googled "household weapons" all those eons ago, one of the returns was a site about chlorine gas - made by mixing bleach and ammonia. Of course, KC would most likely have been affected by such a combination as well. I've done this mixing by mistake when cleaning my toilet ages ago. Whew! What a disaster!

Yes, I noticed there were not enough meth chemicals to "go there," but it's an interesting scenario. Here's a note from a website about anhydrous ammonia:

Why would these thieves risk their lives to steal this most dangerous and explosive element? Because anhydrous ammonia is often used for the production of methamphetamine. According to the National Institute on Drug Abuse, Meth is a drug that duplicates or tricks the brain into releasing massive amounts of dopamine.

http://somechicksblog.com/meth-awareness/anhydrous-ammonia-leak-raises-methamphetamine-awareness

Dinner must now be cooked to feed the Hungry Ones in the house.

 

[QuietStorm]

Well, so far we have two plastic drink bottles with way more dangerous chemicals than are normally found and the common denominator is KC. She had access to the trash bag she took from AL's (we don't know that the Crystal Lite bottle came from the apt simply because it appeared in the trash bag she had in her car). And her daughter's remains were found with another suspicious bottle right next to the skull.

I'm again wondering what kinds of chemicals come up when someone searches for "household weapons" and why this idiot girl could have had access to stuff we see as something that would not fit the bill for "recreational" anything but are potentially lethal cocktails. What the heck is in windshield wiper fluid I'm wondering? (remember those bozos who poured the blue stuff into paper cups and little kids drank them?)

Antifreeze, but why would they want to drink that?

 

[QuietStorm]

This is probably horrible to say, but here goes anyway.

The problem I see with this scenario is that there are so many easier ways to kill a two year old child. KC seems like the type to take the easiest and most convenient route (like smothering, just as an example).

I've actually said the same thing you're saying in at least one of my posts. But, the Gatorade bottle and syringe are interesting to me, even if they have nothing to do with the death of Caylee. Analyzing them helps me put them on my 'yay' or 'nay' lists. Reading other people's thoughts and discoveries helps too.

 

[JWG]

Prior to testing, the FBI analyst noted that the contents of the Crystal Light bottle smelled of urine (page 11512). Because it might have been urine, the question was asked of SA Savage 1) from where did the contents originate and 2) did they wish to have it tested for DNA and toxicology.

When I first read the communication log I thought that meant the substance was not tested. However, it was tested - chemically analyzed - and determined not to be urine. Therefore, DNA testing was never ordered.

Why did the FBI analyst note that the substance smelled like urine? Because two chemicals found in the substance produce odors that can be mistaken for urine:

Trimethylamine - the source of the "ammonia" smell.
Dimethyl disulfide - the source of the underlying "sulfur" / "rotten egg" smell.

But rest assured, there was no urine in that sample.

 

[USARDOG]

This is probably horrible to say, but here goes anyway.

The problem I see with this scenario is that there are so many easier ways to kill a two year old child. KC seems like the type to take the easiest and most convenient route (like smothering, just as an example).

Yes, all to true but what is the easy way out? There is a vast difference between speculating killing someone, and setting out to do it. The prospect of putting your hands on someone and choking the life out of them or suffocating them is not pretty. Even the state has gone to lethal injection, and I think, in one's mind, it is easier to conjure up some substance to do the deed, than to actually take someone in your hands and do it, without being in a rage of anger that is.

IMO, making up a lethal cocktail and injecting or squirting it down the throat of an unconscious child seem like the easy way out to me.

 

[USARDOG]

Then we have CA accusing AH of shooting heroine..right? I wonder where she gathered that tid bit of information, or if it was just a figment of her imagination.

I am not familiar with this accusation, could you provide a link? Yes, and as for having a vivid imagination, CA would have to be the queen.

I will say, spotting a heroin user is as easy as spotting darkness after sundown, and there are very few "recreational" heroin users. It gets to become a way of life very quickly.

 

[QuietStorm]

Yup...I mentioned it...and definitely think the liquid from the Crystal Light container had been analyzed by that time.

Yes, and another poster brought up the possibility that KC sprayed the body with the insectisides to keep the bugs at bay. This way way back when the items were first removed from the home.

 

[JWG]

JWG, can you (or anyone else out there) think of a possible scenario in which someone would mix these chemicals and the draw them into a syringe, as you speculate?

I mean someone other than KC. Imagine the syringe is completely unrelated to her and just a coincidence that it ended up near the remains (which is quite possible IMO). Can you think of a reason for someone to do that?

In my mind, while it seems quite possible the syringe has nothing to do w/ KC and is pure coincidence, it doesn't seem likely that some other unrelated person was attempting to harm or kill someone with "caustic" chemicals and their discarded syringe ended up near Caylee. KWIM?

Well, from personal experience, yes. :idea:

When I was about 12 my grandparents were visiting and my grandfather - a diabetic - left his used needles in our garbage. I snatched a couple and, being the little scientist I was back then, proceeded to inject my mother's houseplants with chlorine bleach (one syringe) and ammonia (a second syringe). Nothing other than imagination stopped me from using a cleaner like Formula 409. :yow:

That's about the only scenario, however, I can come up with - 12 year old mad scientist. :sleuth:

P.S. - the plants survived. :thumb:

 

[flourish]

Another reason I was wondering: the reference to urine. I was going to rent a house once, but the smell of urine was very strong in the living room. Could have been a pet, but I was told that the smell of urine is another sign of meth use or production.

Thanks for the response.

Specifically, it smells like cat urine, FWIW.

i dont want to go off topic....but i keep thinking of those tiny holes on the side ends of the duct tape..........injection sites? in the neck?

I remember in one of the duct tape discussions some folks were wondering about animal teeth making these holes/marks?