The actual vs. desired outcome

[Holdontoyourhat]

As to the second paragraph above, wouldn't it be better to say "sexual assault by Intruder?" For all we know the sexual assault could have come by Patsy, John, Burke, or some invited guest or combination thereof.

Its possible it was someone invited, or a family member. Just not very probable, IMO. The question is whether or not sexual assault was the original desired outcome, or original plot. Regardless of IDI or RDI. Whether or not the cord was originally intended not for killing JBR, but for sexual assault.

 

[JMO8778]

Patsy's jacket fibers were found on the underside of the tape that covered JonBenet's mouth and intertwined in the cord around her neck. The ifs and/or's don't mean much but those fibers aren't going away and their location is incriminating.

right on,and forensics is an exact science.It isn't based on 'everything is everywhere' scenarios.THAT is just plain STUPID.If that were the case,then no one would ever be convicted,based on forensic evidence.Unfortunately for criminals,something called GRAVITY exists,and since we're not in outer space,fibers settle in specific areas in relation to the crime,and those fibers can be tested for location and match.
I have seen it said that Patsy's fibers were probably all over JB..but it doesn't work like that.Patsy admitted not painting w. the jacket on,and not being in the basement w. it on.And those fibers were even under the tape.
So unless fibers can walk,unfortunately for Patsy,that places her at the crime scene.

 

[JMO8778]

Yes, this could very well have played a part in PR's emotional state as well. Especially if she suspected or knew that her husband was replacing her as an object of sexual desire with her beautiful daughter. PR knew her days were numbered. She was in remission, but ovarian cancer...well, you know. PR could have "sacrificed" JBR to keep her from years of sexual abuse by her father.
I believe both parents covered up this crime. But as an RDI, I can't decide for sure if PR, JR, or both killed her. But if PR made the "sacrifice"- it is in keeping both with her misguided religious beliefs and also explains why JR would help his wife cover up the crime- and why to this day he can't reveal anything for fear of exposing the secret of his abuse of his daughter.

me either,but based on Patsy's own comments,I think she manually strangled her and inflicted the head injury.Thus her 'flashbacks' and panic attacks involving feeling someone was strangling her,cutting off her air supply and she was 'gasping for breath'.
I do think JR was undoubtedly in on the cover up b/f LE arrived,but I'm not sure if he had anything to do w. the ligature strangling or not.I do think he staged the wrist ligatures,however,that could have been sometime afterwards.
I have a feeling that the rope was all used up,and that in the making of the garrotte and the wrist ligatures,none was left.I think the tape may have come from an AG doll,as JR did have one sent to his office after the murder.

 

[JMO8778]

I'm not saying its odd that cord or tape was not found. I'm saying that because neither cord nor tape was found except on JBR, it GIVES THE APPEARANCE that the cord and tape were exclusive to the assault and murder of JBR.

Based on that, the murder PROBABLY wasn't an accident. The cord and tape PROBABLY were brought by somebody exclulsively for the purpose of assault and murder.

well,I don't think Patsy planned to kill her in advance.

 

[Toltec]

If there was an accident then parents would have to improvise using items found in the house, right? These items have to have other legitimate uses. None were found. No remnants of the same tape or cord were found either. This makes it look like the tape and cord were exclusive to the assault and murder of JBR. The explanation that new tape and cord were just not used yet AND remnants smuggled out, seems too convenient.

The tape and cord APPEAR TO BE exclusive to the assault and murder of JBR, so the tape and cord ARE THEREFORE PROBABLY brought there for the purpose of assault or murder.

Original plot could be assault, sexual assault, murder, or kidnap. Probably not rage, though because it appears to have been planned.

Law enforcement found duct tape in the home....they question Patsy about it and she says she never uses the stuff. I believe it was found in the wet-bar drawer.

 

[JMO8778]

You can't just make stuff up. The tape and cord were NOT bought, there were NO slings.

well,based on everything that happened that night,I don't think Patsy had time to make one.and after that,she had to use the items for something else.

The tape and cord present a problem for accidental death, because they require evidence of another use, or of scraps laying around, or packaging.

I think the packaging walked out w/ the underwear,on someone's person.

There was no effort to hide the ransom note pen or paper,

I think that was JR's doing.Patsy wrote the note.he helped direct evidence in her direction.Patsy clearly wasn't thinking.JR probably told her the ppr and pen wouldn't matter,that those kinds of pen and ppr could be found anywhere.(but opps,back to that exact science forensic evidence is based on).

the broken paintbrush pieces.

so where is the missing end of the paintbrush that was used to stage the sexual assault?

There wouldn't have been a selective effort to ignore pineapple and broken paintbrush while smuggling tape and cord.

they simply forgot about the pineapple.that was a big OPPS moment for them.

 

[Toltec]

4 TOM HANEY: How about 375, just a close up

5 again, and 376.

6 PATSY RAMSEY: That looks like that might be

7 that little sink in the basement. Yeah, the sink in

8 the basement. I think that is the sink in the

9 basement, yeah.

10 TOM HANEY: Nothing out of the ordinary?

11 PATSY RAMSEY: No.

12 TOM HANEY: 381.

13 TRIP DEMUTH: Take this out.

14 PATSY RAMSEY: Junk drawer. (Inaudible).

15 Golf ball it looks like to me. Tape. (Inaudible),

16 maybe. Junk.

17 TOM HANEY: Another --

18 PATSY RAMSEY: Pen in the junk drawer. Can't

19 tell where it is, either in the kitchen or in the bar

20 area.

21 TRIP DEMUTH: Do you know who that tape would

22 belong to?

23 PATSY RAMSEY: No, I don't. (Inaudible).

24 John would know better than me. I never used it. I

25 always used the clear stuff.


WE FOUND DUCT TAPE!!!!

 

[BOESP]

... WE FOUND DUCT TAPE!!!!

I can provide similar looking white cord. I believe the photo on the back cover of DOI (original hardcover edition) shows JonBenet in a dark blue suit with a white cord trim that looks, to my eye, very nearly like the cord used in the ligature.

If I remember correctly, this photo wasn't used on later editions and instead a shot of JonBenet in a bathing suit on a boat was used.

Somebody, please correct me if I'm wrong about which book had the blue suit with trim since I'm going from memory.

UPDATE: Here's a link with the photo in the blue suit; scroll down the page a bit to find it:

http://www.angelfire.com/co3/realjonbenet/

This photo at the link is much smaller than seeing it on the book cover.

UPDATE 2: Never post when you are in a hurry. I left off an important part of the story. In an earlier discussion here, the blue jacket was said to have been tailor-made for JonBenet and there was a length of the white cord left over. Does anyone remember this story?

 

[DeeDee249]

I can provide similar looking white cord. I believe the photo on the back cover of DOI (original hardcover edition) shows JonBenet in a dark blue suit with a white cord trim that looks, to my eye, very nearly like the cord used in the ligature.

If I remember correctly, this photo wasn't used on later editions and instead a shot of JonBenet in a bathing suit on a boat was used.

Somebody, please correct me if I'm wrong about which book had the blue suit with trim since I'm going from memory.

UPDATE: Here's a link with the photo in the blue suit; scroll down the page a bit to find it:

http://www.angelfire.com/co3/realjonbenet/

This photo at the link is much smaller than seeing it on the book cover.

UPDATE 2: Never post when you are in a hurry. I left off an important part of the story. In an earlier discussion here, the blue jacket was said to have been tailor-made for JonBenet and there was a length of the white cord left over. Does anyone remember this story?

YES! I remember that navy suit- and I also remember seeing that trim (which is like a thin, flat woven white braid) shown next to the cord, and yes, it does look very similar. PR had many of JBR's clothes custom made, and so that trim, which is a common one and sold in anyplace that sells threads and sewing notions, could easily have been in the house.
Though I personally lean towards the cord from McGuckin's. LE sourced the garotte to that exact type of cord.

 

[BBB167893]

News Flash....the mother of the four-year-old Madeline Mc Cann? Chief suspect in the disapperance of her daughter. I was shocked to learn that but then I realized, hey, mothers do kill their children.

My theory is that little Madeline's death was an act of rage by the mother...and she chose to cover it up by disposing of her daughter and callling it a kidnapping.

I pray this isn't another one, folks. But if it is, the IDIs will have to come up with some new material.

So you think that probably the original desire was to assault JBR. What about the tape and cord? Do you think they were bought by the R's for an innocent purpose?

Yeah, I do. Mostly because I've bought that kind of stuff for years.

Original purchase of cord for innocent purposes. Not yet used for innocent purpose when adapted for use on garrote. Secretly hidden and/or smuggled out. Is this right?

You're doing okay so far.

SD mentioned the 'Snow White' syndrome,and I wonder about that,too.I think it could be plausible.If JR was abusing 'Mega-JonBenet',then Patsy wasn't the fairest one of them all anymore,(even if it was of her own creation),and I think it very likely she couldn't handle that.

Yes, I wouldn't mind that one making the list.

Although, here's a thought: most of us here have heard about Chris Benoit by now, right? All I could think of was something John said about how Patsy didn't think she'd live very long. Now, couple that with something Patsy said about how JB was better off dead because she'll never get cancer. Now, in times of war and invasion, it's not unheard of for parents to kill their own children quickly rather than let the enemy (I'm picturing Genghis Khan) do whatever unspeakable things to them. Perhaps this was what happened, with cancer being "Genghis?"

 

[DeeDee249]

Although, here's a thought: most of us here have heard about Chris Benoit by now, right? All I could think of was something John said about how Patsy didn't think she'd live very long. Now, couple that with something Patsy said about how JB was better off dead because she'll never get cancer. Now, in times of war and invasion, it's not unheard of for parents to kill their own children quickly rather than let the enemy (I'm picturing Genghis Khan) do whatever unspeakable things to them. Perhaps this was what happened, with cancer being "Genghis?"

Or maybe JR being "Genghis".

 

[BBB167893]

Just spitballing, right?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Thats some abstract stuff going on. A parent kills their kid so they won't have to face them dying? I don't think I've got that on the list of original ideas. What do we call that, murder for mercy?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I pray this isn't another one, folks. But if it is, the IDIs will have to come up with some new material."

Does this mean there's another RDI-style lynch mob together for the parents already?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

well,I don't think Patsy planned to kill her in advance.

The rage assault seems unlikely because the cord needed to have an innocent reason for being in the house. If there WAS proof of purchase or there WAS another use of the same material, then they could've been improvised for the garrote. But there WASN'T, so that's that. The cord therefore appears to be an uninvited guest to the house, so to speak.

Murder for obfuscation of abuse, kidnap for slave, and sexual assault seem to be the leading original plots. IMO its kidnap for slave by intruder, but the others are possible. All put the cord in the hands of someone who had a plan to do crime with it.

 

[BBB167893]

Thats some abstract stuff going on. A parent kills their kid so they won't have to face them dying? I don't think I've got that on the list of original ideas. What do we call that, murder for mercy?

That's how I'd say it, yeah.

Does this mean there's another RDI-style lynch mob together for the parents already?

I hope not. I thought I made that clear. I just meant that you have a family with "no history" who some people think did it "accidentally," and that if (IF!)they are convicted of it, it changes the landscape.

 

[JMO8778]

The rage assault seems unlikely because the cord needed to have an innocent reason for being in the house. If there WAS proof of purchase or there WAS another use of the same material, then they could've been improvised for the garrote. But there WASN'T, so that's that. The cord therefore appears to be an uninvited guest to the house, so to speak.

Murder for obfuscation of abuse, kidnap for slave, and sexual assault seem to be the leading original plots. IMO its kidnap for slave by intruder, but the others are possible. All put the cord in the hands of someone who had a plan to do crime with it.

why do I feel like I'm watching an episode of 'South Park' where Mr Garrot is leading Mr Slave around???

 

[JMO8778]

The rage assault seems unlikely because the cord needed to have an innocent reason for being in the house. If there WAS proof of purchase or there WAS another use of the same material, then they could've been improvised for the garrote. But there WASN'T, so that's that. The cord therefore appears to be an uninvited guest to the house, so to speak.

the cord had an innocent reason alright...I believe Patsy bought it for her paintings.
like Dee said,can you prove she *didn't buy it? the cord matches up to the cord found in the store,and the price matches as well.I think she didn't get around to making the sling yet..not that' 'that's that'.It isn't that simple.
I'd say the cord was invited once Patsy paid for it and brought it home.
'Come on in!', it screams.

 

[BOESP]

Does this mean there's another RDI-style lynch mob together for the parents already?

Holdon, just because someone disagrees with your IDI theory(ies) doesn't mean they have formed a lynch mob. There is just as much tangible and empirical evidence pointing to Ramsey involvement as there is to anyone else. They also had the best opportunity of all suspects. You once said you didn't put much (if any) store in how the Ramseys acted after the fact but regardless several professionals in various fields believe they acted in a manner that suggests guilt (or at least guilty knowledge).

 

[Rino]

Does this mean there's another RDI-style lynch mob together for the parents already?

I guess as much as it means that the mob who believes that nice parents with out histories who love their children and are well educated professional who could not possibly harm a child never mind lie about it are in force