The actual vs. desired outcome

[JMO8778]

And one more thing,Jeffrey MacDonald does exactly the same thing we see going on here...trying to make it appear a cult/hippie gang comitted the murder.I think it was said he even got some of his ideas for the staging from the Manson murders.Imagine that.

 

[Ames]

For IDI, 'Death to Pigs ''and 'you're not the only fat cat so don't think that killing will be difficult' are both criminal rantings found in written form at the crime scene of vicious murders. There is a class struggle argument behind them. PR and JR don't have class struggle issues, do they?

Well, no...but, she is trying to make it look like an INTRUDER did it...not that she or John did it....so the note is trying to point AWAY from them...not TOWARD them. I mean, as she was writing the note....do you think that she stopped and said to herself..."let's see, I think that I should throw in the words fat cat...but, I can't do THAT, because WE don't have class struggle issues"? No, she said..."let me throw in the phrase fat cat...because that sounds like something that a person with class struggle issues would say...and we don't have class struggle issues...so that would definately point AWAY from us."

 

[Ames]

You were 5 for a whole decade???

Yes...and holding....LOL

Guess I should have said...that in 1970, I was five....so I don't remember much.

 

[BBB167893]

So, RDI, please explain why an ideology similar to the Manson murders (pig) appears at the scene of the JBR murder (fat cat)?

As soon as you explain why that was the family's nickname for John.

It occurs to me why RDI gets so upset when IDI takes the RN and witness testimony at face value.

Occurs to me too: because it is so obviously phony. And that's NOT just our opinion. Holdon, you and I both know that Mr. Smit said it wasn't staged. But he gives no basis other than that John seemed to have "undid" the staging. I don't see how that happened. He made sure everyone would see the important stuff. After all, it got so bad he had to find the body himself, did he not? It also might interest you to know that Mr. Smit has almost no experience with staging. What's that? You didn't know? Oh, yes. By his own admission, yet. In all of his years of experience, he only came across two cases where there was ANY staging, and even then it was a bare minimum, most likely by people who had planned their killings, not panicked people with no real knowledge of crime or forensic science just throwing anything they could think of into the stew of an unplanned, spur-of-the-moment deed.

As for the note, take a look at this:

http://www.acandyrose.com/2007-10-19-CinaWongExhibit1x80.jpg

and this:

http://www.acandyrose.com/2007-10-19-CinaWongExhibit2x80.jpg

and this:

http://www.acandyrose.com/2007-10-19-CinaWongExhibit3x80.jpg

And remember, when every expert has a different opinion, one has no recourse but their own eyes. I trust my own senses. And so would a jury, or I'll eat my PMPT copy.

 

[Ames]

As soon as you explain why that was the family's nickname for John.



Occurs to me too: because it is so obviously phony. And that's NOT just our opinion. Holdon, you and I both know that Mr. Smit said it wasn't staged. But he gives no basis other than that John seemed to have "undid" the staging. I don't see how that happened. He made sure everyone would see the important stuff. After all, it got so bad he had to find the body himself, did he not? It also might interest you to know that Mr. Smit has almost no experience with staging. What's that? You didn't know? Oh, yes. By his own admission, yet. In all of his years of experience, he only came across two cases where there was ANY staging, and even then it was a bare minimum, most likely by people who had planned their killings, not panicked people with no real knowledge of crime or forensic science just throwing anything they could think of into the stew of an unplanned, spur-of-the-moment deed.

As for the note, take a look at this:

http://www.acandyrose.com/2007-10-19-CinaWongExhibit1x80.jpg

and this:

http://www.acandyrose.com/2007-10-19-CinaWongExhibit2x80.jpg

and this:

http://www.acandyrose.com/2007-10-19-CinaWongExhibit3x80.jpg

And remember, when every expert has a different opinion, one has no recourse but their own eyes. I trust my own senses. And so would a jury, or I'll eat my PMPT copy.

SuperDave,
Have you read the part of John's interview...(I am sure that you have) where he says at first he didn't see the cord around JB's neck, and then he says that he thinks that he saw it, and then he says that he saw it? But, HE referred to it as a "TWISTER". I thought that was odd...how would he know the slang term for a garotte??? I will try and find that portion of the interview.

 

[BBB167893]

No, I haven't.

But I can't see why anyone would see a disconnect between what happened to JB and her being placed in a blanket by a parent. Lest we forget, the idea was not to kill her, but that she was already dead and to save one'self. The blanket came afterward, a means of physical cover-up to aid the person's psyche, or has anyone else noticed that the note makes no mention of her name. A lot of people have made issue of that, but those same people never seem to notice that the parents never or almost never refer to her by name in interviews, either! See, you can't argue one thing or another in this case without considering the "big picture." Those patterns get my "little man" doing somersaults in my stomach. And I've learned to trust the "little man." To see her and use her name would make it too "real," you know? In the killer's mind, it was "someone else." That involves a lot of psychological nuance, but my point is made, I think.

And to answer Holdon's question as to whether the cord was meant to kill her or just a prop, the answer is, both! Actually, I should categorize that. I guess Norm Early said it best. He said that if you are going to stage a strangulation, you don't want the coroner to come back and say that it could not have killed the person, so you keep pulling it deeper. Make sense, or am I just typing to myself?

Just spitballing, but with reservations.

 

[Ames]

11 LOU SMIT: So just one more area. Everybody
12 has heard about -- I can't say that. What have you
13 heard about a paint tray?
14 JOHN RAMSEY: Just what I read, or tried
15 not to read. But can't help but hear the media
16 that tell us a broken paintbrush that was used as
17 part of the -- you see, I found JonBenet. I never
18 saw a cord or that sort of thing. I thought I saw
19 a cord, but I didn't focus on it or realize there
20 was anything in the way of a twister, which
21 apparently it was.
22 It apparently was a paintbrush. And that's based
23 on what I heard in the media. That's my
24 impression. That's all I really heard.

"I NEVER saw a cord....I THOUGHT I saw a cord, but didn't focus on it"......huh? Reminds me of Patsy and the red heart on JB's hand.

A TWISTER?? Hmmm...obviously John knows more about garottes than we think.

 

[JMO8778]

As soon as you explain why that was the family's nickname for John.

it's obvious no one outside the family could have written that note.also consider that good southern common sense line...I was just banging my head when Karr was being paraded around...thinking,ok,no. 1-can't they see that he didn't write the note??? NO way !!!

If I can see that,surely ML could have,if she'd taken the time to read the note,that is.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

As soon as you explain why that was the family's nickname for John.



Occurs to me too: because it is so obviously phony. And that's NOT just our opinion. Holdon, you and I both know that Mr. Smit said it wasn't staged. But he gives no basis other than that John seemed to have "undid" the staging. I don't see how that happened. He made sure everyone would see the important stuff. After all, it got so bad he had to find the body himself, did he not? It also might interest you to know that Mr. Smit has almost no experience with staging. What's that? You didn't know? Oh, yes. By his own admission, yet. In all of his years of experience, he only came across two cases where there was ANY staging, and even then it was a bare minimum, most likely by people who had planned their killings, not panicked people with no real knowledge of crime or forensic science just throwing anything they could think of into the stew of an unplanned, spur-of-the-moment deed.

As for the note, take a look at this:

http://www.acandyrose.com/2007-10-19-CinaWongExhibit1x80.jpg

and this:

http://www.acandyrose.com/2007-10-19-CinaWongExhibit2x80.jpg

and this:

http://www.acandyrose.com/2007-10-19-CinaWongExhibit3x80.jpg

And remember, when every expert has a different opinion, one has no recourse but their own eyes. I trust my own senses. And so would a jury, or I'll eat my PMPT copy.

You'll be eating those words.

As I'm sure you know, handwriting has hundreds of facets, and any two people that you pick are going to share some facets. The actual RN author will share all facets. Dont take my word for it, ask the consensus of ABFDE certified examiners. They say she didn't write it. So did federal agents that were assigned to the task, not bought by the tabloids.

The only way RDI can argue that PR wrote the note is by winning the wildcard disguised handwriting argument, and that argument is just lame. The last half of the RN is smooth and more relaxed than the first half. Its not disguised. Even in the last half, only a few of hundreds of handwriting facets are similar. The majority aren't just a little different, but vastly different, because its a different author.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

No, I haven't.

But I can't see why anyone would see a disconnect between what happened to JB and her being placed in a blanket by a parent. Lest we forget, the idea was not to kill her, but that she was already dead and to save one'self. The blanket came afterward, a means of physical cover-up to aid the person's psyche, or has anyone else noticed that the note makes no mention of her name. A lot of people have made issue of that, but those same people never seem to notice that the parents never or almost never refer to her by name in interviews, either! See, you can't argue one thing or another in this case without considering the "big picture." Those patterns get my "little man" doing somersaults in my stomach. And I've learned to trust the "little man." To see her and use her name would make it too "real," you know? In the killer's mind, it was "someone else." That involves a lot of psychological nuance, but my point is made, I think.

And to answer Holdon's question as to whether the cord was meant to kill her or just a prop, the answer is, both! Actually, I should categorize that. I guess Norm Early said it best. He said that if you are going to stage a strangulation, you don't want the coroner to come back and say that it could not have killed the person, so you keep pulling it deeper. Make sense, or am I just typing to myself?

Just spitballing, but with reservations.

That idea makes no sense, or they would have left the 2nd ligature tightly bound and not just loosely slipped over her wrists.

 

[Ames]

You'll be eating those words.

As I'm sure you know, handwriting has hundreds of facets, and any two people that you pick are going to share some facets. The actual RN author will share all facets. Dont take my word for it, ask the consensus of ABFDE certified examiners. They say she didn't write it. So did federal agents that were assigned to the task, not bought by the tabloids.

The only way RDI can argue that PR wrote the note is by winning the wildcard disguised handwriting argument, and that argument is just lame. The last half of the RN is smooth and more relaxed than the first half. Its not disguised. Even in the last half, only a few of hundreds of handwriting facets are similar. The majority aren't just a little different, but vastly different, because its a different author.

You are wrong holdon...FBI EXPERTS could not reach a conclusion.

From ROCKY MOUNTAIN NEWS...

"Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter contacted Foster in the fall of 1997 to help with the investigation. Police took the ransom note to handwriting experts from the FBI, the Secret Service and a private firm in California, but none offered a definitive conclusion. A Colorado Bureau of Investigation handwriting expert found "indications" that Patsy Ramsey wrote the ransom note, according to a search warrant in the case."

You need to start doing a little bit of research before you start spouting things off that you have no proof of.

 

[Ames]

Some of the more noteworthy evidence in the case includes:
- The ransom note. The three-page message from "a small foreign faction'' demanded the odd sum of $118,000 for sparing JonBenét from beheading; it urged John Ramsey not to "try to grow a brain'' but to "use that good southern common sense of yours'' and be rested before making the "exhausting'' delivery.
Detectives quickly determined that the note had been written on a pad of paper found in the Ramseys' house, with a Sharpie pen also found in the home.
Convinced that the ransom note had most likely been written at the house, investigators next took writing samples from dozens of people, including John, Patsy Ramsey and Burke Ramsey, John Ramsey's children from his first marriage, former friend Fleet White, Bill McReynolds, who portrayed Santa Claus at the Ramseys' Christmas party, neighbor Joe Barnhill, and others.
Handwriting experts from CBI eliminated John Ramsey as the note's author, but they couldn't do the same for Patsy. Although they collected at least five handwriting samples from Patsy, along with "historic'' samples of things she wrote before JonBenét's death, they could neither eliminate her as the writer, nor say definitively that she was. Chet Ubowski of CBI wrote of one of her samples that "This handwriting showed indications that the writer was Patsy Ramsey."

 

[Ames]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JonBen%C3%A9t_Ramsey

"Handwriting samples were taken from a number of suspects who might have written the ransom note. Forensic analysis cleared everyone except for Patsy Ramsey, whose writing style bore some resemblance to the ransom note.[6][4]"

 

[JMO8778]

That idea makes no sense, or they would have left the 2nd ligature tightly bound and not just loosely slipped over her wrists.

and JR LIED and said it was tied tightly,when it wasn't.now why would he do that???? because he knew the staging was poorly done.and that's probably one reason he wanted to find her himself.
I think Patsy did the wrist ligatures;JR saw they weren't staged in a believable way,but he was afraid to touch them,out of fear of leaving his own forensic evidence behind,as well as they may have just ran out of time to do anything else with them..her arms were already in rigor,and I think Patsy wanted to use up the rest of the cord.not being able to get her hands closer together,that was the best she could do.as Thomas said,it was a symbolic gesture to make it appear she'd been bound.

 

[Rino]

For IDI, 'Death to Pigs ''and 'you're not the only fat cat so don't think that killing will be difficult' are both criminal rantings found in written form at the crime scene of vicious murders. There is a class struggle argument behind them. PR and JR don't have class struggle issues, do they?

Money struggles, no. Never mind there was no kiddnapping for ransom, the goal was to disguise who they were. Ta da, the pretense of class stuggling criminal rantings along with brutal threats. Just exactly what IDI insist the Ramseys could never do, it's really quite simplistic.

When someone calls my house I don't know or want to talk to I pretend to be the housekeeper. It's called lying and the note is riddled with lies.

 

[Ames]

http://www.acandyrose.com/10252000CourtTVCrierPatsyAmbidextrous.htm

[FONT='Arial', sans-serif]WALKER: Well, for a long time investigators have known that the note was probably written by somebody who's ambidextrous. This is the Colorado Bureau of Investigation. But police have never been able to absolutely independently confirm that Patsy Ramsey was ambidextrous, so we decided because this case is so old and we're trying constantly to uncover new evidence, we went to witnesses everywhere, in Boulder, in Parkersburg, West Virginia, and we talked to... [/FONT]


[FONT='Arial', sans-serif]WALLACE: Where she grew up. [/FONT]


[FONT='Arial', sans-serif]WALKER: Where she grew up, where Patsy grew up. We talked to people from her school days, teachers, etc, and we found a witness, a high school teacher who taught Patsy in the 1970's, who said very simply and matter-of-factly she is ambidextrous. She was as a child. She is now. We went to Linda Hoffmann-Pugh, the housekeeper, and when we asked her this she said, oh yeah, she said, Patsy told me she was ambidextrous. I've seen her brush her hair with her left hand. I've seen her paint with her left hand. I once saw her work on a science project with Burke, JonBenet's brother, where she wrote numbers and letters with her left hand. She is absolutely ambidextrous. This is very exciting evidence. As I'm sure Mr. Widmer, the handwriting expert, will tell you, if you look at the letter, the ransom note, the two and a half page ransom note, you can see indications that this was written by a person who was using their non-dominant hand. The shaky handwriting.. [/FONT]

 

[Solace]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JonBen%C3%A9t_Ramsey

"Handwriting samples were taken from a number of suspects who might have written the ransom note. Forensic analysis cleared everyone except for Patsy Ramsey, whose writing style bore some resemblance to the ransom note.[6][4]"

I love you AMES. Excellent research and posts.
:dance:

And lets not forget Mr. Douglas who said when challenged on his findings - he was sure about John but was not sure about Patsy.

 

[Solace]

As soon as you explain why that was the family's nickname for John.

Was this the family's nickname?

 

[Ames]

I love you AMES. Excellent research and posts.
:dance:

And lets not forget Mr. Douglas who said when challenged on his findings - he was sure about John but was not sure about Patsy.

THANKS!!...and I love you too!!

I am getting a little bit tired of doing Holdon's research though... I think that Holdon makes stuff up as he/she goes along.

 

[Solace]

THANKS!!...and I love you too!!

I am getting a little bit tired of doing Holdon's research though... I think that Holdon makes stuff up as he/she goes along.

So does Evening2.