The (Alleged) Abduction

[Dushi]

I keep wondering did Hannah recognize JM from around town? She maybe felt comfortable if he asked if he could give her a ride? Or did he meet Hannah that night and thought she- for lack of better words- would be a better victim? I wonder if JM used any force during the abduction.
Praying for Hannah.

Basing this on the door persons account... I don't believe any force was needed

 

[maureen718]

I guess the reason this thread is called the "alleged" abduction is because until Hannah is found, hard to say she even was abducted. She went with JM willingly. Who's to say she isn't back yet because she doesn't want to come back. I'd say more but then I'm getting inot possible charges rather than the possible abduction.

It is not a fact that Hannah went with JM willingly as you have posted so so many times. It is your opinion that she went willingly from what you have gleaned from the video. It is not my opinion that she went willingly. IMO it is very hard to understand what exactly was going on from the video and from the eyewitness account of Hannah being slouched and "assisted" in walking with JM. By no means have either LE or anyone else said that Hannah went willingly with JM, that I have read anywhere and I am pretty sure I am up to date with all the news so far, there simply is no proof of that, it is an opinion.

 

[jamicat]

It is not a fact that Hannah went with JM willingly as you have posted so so many times. It is your opinion that she went willingly from what you have gleaned from the video. It is not my opinion that she went willingly. IMO it is very hard to understand what exactly was going on from the video and from the eyewitness account of Hannah being slouched and "assisted" in walking with JM. By no means have either LE or anyone else said that Hannah went willingly with JM, that I have read anywhere and I am pretty sure I am up to date with all the news so far, there simply is no proof of that, it is an opinion.

WG who saw the JM and Hannah encounter thought they knew each other, and what he said is a pretty good indication that was not an abduction. What others saw at Tempo, and he and she were seen together also gave no signs of her being forced to be with him. What Abby said was that Hannh looked slouched and need assistance but nothing about being forced. It would be a tough to do prove that she was anything but willlingly going with him. There were a lot of people there, and she made no moves or say a word that would indicate anything but that she was willingly with him, Not a thing.

The charges filed have to do more with what they cover by example, that she was possibly tricked (drunk and in need of ride likely offerd) then to do with whether she was actually abducted, until and unless her condition when found shows she clearly was taken to a situation she would not have wanted. Like thrown into a ditch. Or even the trunk of the car. I'd love to see more meat in these charges. I just don't with the facts given, and not given.

 

[human]

He always wore those shorts that had pockets, right?

There is no reason he could not have something like roofies in those pants.

 

[lateott]

WG who saw the JM and Hannah encounter thought they knew each other, and what he said is a pretty good indication that was not an abduction. What others saw at Tempo, and he and she were seen together also gave no signs of her being forced to be with him. What Abby said was that Hannh looked slouched and need assistance but nothing about being forced. It would be a tough to do prove that she was anything but willlingly going with him. There were a lot of people there, and she made no moves or say a word that would indicate anything but that she was willingly with him, Not a thing.

The charges filed have to do more with what they cover by example, that she was possibly tricked (drunk and in need of ride likely offerd) then to do with whether she was actually abducted, until and unless her condition when found shows she clearly was taken to a situation she would not have wanted. Like thrown into a ditch. Or even the trunk of the car. I'd love to see more meat in these charges. I just don't with the facts given, and not given.

I think this is a very clear analysis.

From the info released to and observable by the public there is no evidence of the act of abduction.

I know it is emotionally difficult to consider that fact, but it is very important to do so. If you think about it, we as a society don't want to draw the line as a razor's edge between abduction and giving a drunk person a ride, do we?

We do have her continued absence as circumstantial evidence, and the charges that were filed. Perhaps LE does have physical evidence like the following:

1) Restraining devices/materials with her DNA or hair
2) Forensic evidence in the trunk (but for some reason I imagine that his trunk is full to the lid with junk and not suitable for hauling people...)
3) Clothing in car out of context (socks, underclothes), though we know they are still looking for her outer clothing.
4) Medicine out of context (e.g. sleeping meds in the car)
5) Cell phone photos or videos

He would have to be really, really stupid to be found with 1 or 3 or 5.

 

[razzledazzle]

It is not a fact that Hannah went with JM willingly as you have posted so so many times. It is your opinion that she went willingly from what you have gleaned from the video. It is not my opinion that she went willingly. IMO it is very hard to understand what exactly was going on from the video and from the eyewitness account of Hannah being slouched and "assisted" in walking with JM. By no means have either LE or anyone else said that Hannah went willingly with JM, that I have read anywhere and I am pretty sure I am up to date with all the news so far, there simply is no proof of that, it is an opinion.

http://insidecville.com/blog/ljs-timeline/
Snipped from Coy's timeline:


“When I saw her that night,” Abby says, “I remember thinking, she’s really drunk. She couldn’t walk well. She was slouched into him, leaning against him, like she was having difficulty standing up. He was talking to her, and his right arm was around her, not over her shoulder, not at the waist, but around her back and holding her right arm. He was holding her close, like he was almost holding her up. They walked away together up the street towards the Mall.”

The bolded and underlined has bugged me since the first time I read it. I call "forcefully coerced"...but that's JMO.

 

[human]

Sounds like drugs to me

 

[Jo in Calif]

So if a woman is to drunk to know what is really going on and a man has sex with her is that not considered rape?
So if a woman is to drunk to know what is really going on and gets in a car with a man and they drive off wouldn't that be considered abduction? Considering that she has disappeared.
If she was so drunk she could not consent to sex, how would she legally been able to consent to be given a ride?
IMO there is a difference between willing and not knowing what the heck is going on.

 

[maureen718]

http://insidecville.com/blog/ljs-timeline/
Snipped from Coy's timeline:


“When I saw her that night,” Abby says, “I remember thinking, she’s really drunk. She couldn’t walk well. She was slouched into him, leaning against him, like she was having difficulty standing up. He was talking to her, and his right arm was around her, not over her shoulder, not at the waist, but around her back and holding her right arm. He was holding her close, like he was almost holding her up. They walked away together up the street towards the Mall.”

The bolded and underlined has bugged me since the first time I read it. I call "forcefully coerced"...but that's JMO.

This is my opinion too. I think it's possible that this is the act LE refers to as the abduction in the abduction with intent to defile charge

 

[RSC]

That's not true at all. She could have willingly gone with him every step of the way (which I doubt, IMO), but if he knew that he was likely to harm her (which he did, IMO), then it is still considered abduction under virginia law. https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-47
You don't need to drag someone off kicking and screaming.

Also--if she were extremely drunk or drugged, she wouldn't be capable of doing anything "willingly."

Whether Hannah was even abducted is a question. She went with him willingly from everything we know. The point that it becomes an abduction is when she was taken somewhere against her will.

 

[RSC]

Virginia law says abduction can simply be a matter of deception/intent. She could have gone with him 100% willingly and sober (which I don't think happened, btw), and it is still abduction if JM planned to rape and kill her (I believe he did).

This is my opinion too. I think it's possible that this is the act LE refers to as the abduction in the abduction with intent to defile charge

 

[jamicat]

So if a woman is to drunk to know what is really going on and a man has sex with her is that not considered rape?
So if a woman is to drunk to know what is really going on and gets in a car with a man and they drive off wouldn't that be considered abduction? Considering that she has disappeared.
If she was so drunk she could not consent to sex, how would she legally been able to consent to be given a ride?
IMO there is a difference between willing and not knowing what the heck is going on.

IF it goes to court, and it can be proven that a woman was too drunk to know what was going on, and a man had sex with her and she claims rape, yes, there is a case. Does happen, but a lot of times, most of the time, the woman isn't going to press charges. I think most of us know this.

Who is to say a woman is too drunk to know what is really going on and gets into a car with a man and drives off,that it is abduction? Apparently those who personally saw Hannah standing there with JM didn't feel a need to call the police to report some woman was too drunk to know what is really going on and seems to be with some guy who looks likes he's going to abduct her. Maybe she was too drunk maybe she threw up, maybe she had gas/stomache pains, who knows? Had she gotten home safely, there wouldn't be a murmur about this. A 23 year old card checker who didn't report any of this as suspcious is going to now say that it was?

A lot of people saw Hannah with JM and no one gave it a second thought. If they thought she was there against her will or being taken advantage of, someone might have reported it. It's a normal scene that often occurs. It happens all of the time. In fact, people often stick a drunk in a cab ( or as Hannah personally did onto a bus) to get them home, with them protesting.

The problem is though there is a difference, proving it in a court of law, which may be where all of this ends up, is not going to be easy, because the it is required to assume innocence on the part of the defendent, and it has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt otherwise. In cases, where a verdict for the victim is favorable, the victim is often so attesting that she was too drunk to give consent for anything. In this case, there is no victim to so testify.

Not saying it would not be a go, but it's an uphill fight. No one got close enough to talk to Hannah, no one offered any help, nothing at the time. So that they thought she was that off, why did they not even say a word?

Also, Hannah looks like she was not in such bad shape walking through the mall. It's actually curious to me that she got so incapacitated to be described the way "Abby" did in that short time, and I am suspicious about what JM might have put in her beer, if it can even be proven he gave her one when he returned to Tempo and bought 2 of them. No one is reported to see her drink anything. It's even not a sure thing whether she was in there or not. IF it came to going to court, there is doubt about that.

We can speculate and fill in the blanks and say what looks reasonable, but it doesn't work that way when it actually is brought to charges against a person. Only the facts, for the most part.

IMO, it would be very difficult to prove that JM abducted Hannah with what we know LE has. If they have some big piece of evidence they haven't shared with us, that's a whole other story.

And really: I think Hannah did go willingly with JM. I believe he offered her a ride, and she accepted and was in her right mind enough to know what she was doing She was lost, tired, confused and wanted to go back to her part of town, and it was late. So a ride would have been god send to her, and I've no doubt JM"s demeanor was not at all threatening to her. Had he just given her a ride back, and she'd gotten home, there wouldn't be this problem So the offer of the ride, getting into the car, going with JM, all of that is fine. It's if there were a change in plans after she got into the car, if JM did not take her where she wanted to go, did things to her to which she did not consent, and if he harmed her, raped her and killed her that there is a big problem, and that is the case at hand now But there isn't any proof that happened. Maybe he did drop her off where she wanted, or maybe she agreed to go for a ride with him, and then he dropped her off where she wanted to dropped off after some recreational sex somewhere? Understand that JM doesn't have to say a thing to explain all of this. The DA has to prove otherwise. That's the way it works in court. Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

 

[RSC]

I said this in another thread as well. JM will absolutely have to "say a thing to explain all of this," unless he chooses not to testify at all, which would be a stunning choice of legal defense.

I'm not clear why you would think that HG got in to JM's car willingly, as so far his family is out there telling the media that she didn't get in his car at all.

As for "there isn't any proof that happened...," clearly LE has something that you or I are not privy to, or they would not have arrested him with this charge. Had they wanted to make up this charge, they would have done so from the get go, IMO (e.g. reckless speeding...). I believe they were waiting for more information. The fact that they have since officially stated that they found a forensic link to the MH case, along with the fact that they will not tell us anything more about the confiscated clothing from JM's apartment because they didn't want to prejudice the pending case (sorry, can't find the link for that) tells us that LE has information that they are not sharing.

I understand wanting to protect and preserve the idea of someone as innocent until proven guilty, but extrapolating this to saying that a ride with JM would have been a god send to her seems to be really reaching. JMO.

IF it goes to court, and it can be proven that a woman was too drunk to know what was going on, and a man had sex with her and she claims rape, yes, there is a case. Does happen, but a lot of times, most of the time, the woman isn't going to press charges. I think most of us know this.

Who is to say a woman is too drunk to know what is really going on and gets into a car with a man and drives off,that it is abduction? Apparently those who personally saw Hannah standing there with JM didn't feel a need to call the police to report some woman was too drunk to know what is really going on and seems to be with some guy who looks likes he's going to abduct her. Maybe she was too drunk maybe she threw up, maybe she had gas/stomache pains, who knows? Had she gotten home safely, there wouldn't be a murmur about this. A 23 year old card checker who didn't report any of this as suspcious is going to now say that it was?

A lot of people saw Hannah with JM and no one gave it a second thought. If they thought she was there against her will or being taken advantage of, someone might have reported it. It's a normal scene that often occurs. It happens all of the time. In fact, people often stick a drunk in a cab ( or as Hannah personally did onto a bus) to get them home, with them protesting.

The problem is though there is a difference, proving it in a court of law, which may be where all of this ends up, is not going to be easy, because the it is required to assume innocence on the part of the defendent, and it has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt otherwise. In cases, where a verdict for the victim is favorable, the victim is often so attesting that she was too drunk to give consent for anything. In this case, there is no victim to so testify.

Not saying it would not be a go, but it's an uphill fight. No one got close enough to talk to Hannah, no one offered any help, nothing at the time. So that they thought she was that off, why did they not even say a word?

Also, Hannah looks like she was not in such bad shape walking through the mall. It's actually curious to me that she got so incapacitated to be described the way "Abby" did in that short time, and I am suspicious about what JM might have put in her beer, if it can even be proven he gave her one when he returned to Tempo and bought 2 of them. No one is reported to see her drink anything. It's even not a sure thing whether she was in there or not. IF it came to going to court, there is doubt about that.

We can speculate and fill in the blanks and say what looks reasonable, but it doesn't work that way when it actually is brought to charges against a person. Only the facts, for the most part.

IMO, it would be very difficult to prove that JM abducted Hannah with what we know LE has. If they have some big piece of evidence they haven't shared with us, that's a whole other story.

And really: I think Hannah did go willingly with JM. I believe he offered her a ride, and she accepted and was in her right mind enough to know what she was doing She was lost, tired, confused and wanted to go back to her part of town, and it was late. So a ride would have been god send to her, and I've no doubt JM"s demeanor was not at all threatening to her. Had he just given her a ride back, and she'd gotten home, there wouldn't be this problem So the offer of the ride, getting into the car, going with JM, all of that is fine. It's if there were a change in plans after she got into the car, if JM did not take her where she wanted to go, did things to her to which she did not consent, and if he harmed her, raped her and killed her that there is a big problem, and that is the case at hand now But there isn't any proof that happened. Maybe he did drop her off where she wanted, or maybe she agreed to go for a ride with him, and then he dropped her off where she wanted to dropped off after some recreational sex somewhere? Understand that JM doesn't have to say a thing to explain all of this. The DA has to prove otherwise. That's the way it works in court. Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

 

[RSC]

WG also said that it was a 5'9" bald guy, if memory serves correctly.

And if "Abby" said HG couldn't stand up on her own, that implies she could not consent to begin with.

WG who saw the JM and Hannah encounter thought they knew each other, and what he said is a pretty good indication that was not an abduction. What others saw at Tempo, and he and she were seen together also gave no signs of her being forced to be with him. What Abby said was that Hannh looked slouched and need assistance but nothing about being forced. It would be a tough to do prove that she was anything but willlingly going with him. There were a lot of people there, and she made no moves or say a word that would indicate anything but that she was willingly with him, Not a thing.

The charges filed have to do more with what they cover by example, that she was possibly tricked (drunk and in need of ride likely offerd) then to do with whether she was actually abducted, until and unless her condition when found shows she clearly was taken to a situation she would not have wanted. Like thrown into a ditch. Or even the trunk of the car. I'd love to see more meat in these charges. I just don't with the facts given, and not given.

 

[jamicat]

I am saying that to Hannah, lost, confused, tired, drunk, an offer of a ride would haveseemed to have been godsend, and JM had the right demeanor most likely to pull it off.

I don't think it's unusual at all for the defendent in a criminal trial to remain silent. In fact, I do believe they do most of the time. A good attorney can rip most people to shreds, get them to react, and JM is impulsive, has a temper and does not tend to react well under stress. Absolutely his attorney would have him keep mum. Let the state do the work, and then he can rip it up. Without a body, it could be uphill.

JM's family did not say any such thing. I believe the Daily Mail which is considered a tabloid said that his grandmother said that JM told his mother that he was with Hannah and then they went their separate ways. Third hand hearsay from a tabloid, and actually it was the truth. He was with Hannah and they did go their separate ways. The questions are what happened in between.

Maybe some lawyers can chime in here, but I really don't think JM has to say "boo", even in trial, and this is not uncommon at all in these cases. Better the defendent doesn't open his mouth many time.s Few people are good on the stand when attacked.

And yes, I do think Hannah very willingly got into the car with JM. She likely thought she was getting the ride she wanted back to her place. I doubt very much he had a scuffle with her to load her in there. She probably went right in there. I think it's pretty much a foregone conclusion and LE most certainly has forensic and DNA data to show she was in the car But so what? No problem that she got into the car with him. Maybe he did drop her off on the corner of 14h and W as her text states is where she was lost. No proof that he did not.

Do I believe that he just drove her there? Not on your life. But I sure can't prove he did not and unless LE has something very good, I don't think they can either. That she did not show up at home, doesn't mean that JM did not drop her off near there. What she did after she got out of the car, which she certainly did is absolutely unknown, or what happened to her thereafter.

 

[jamicat]

WG also said that it was a 5'9" bald guy, if memory serves correctly.

And if "Abby" said HG couldn't stand up on her own, that implies she could not consent to begin with.

Not proof. I've had stomach/gas pain so severe that I'm not standing straight and hardly on my own. But not necessarily anytthing wrong with my mind, and even with some drinks, not necessarily so drunk not to consent to most things. It's got to be proven. And just as WG's descriptions were way off on JM, so could Abby's be on Hannah. Witnesses are not that reliable, and a lot of things are judgements, not facts. You really think Hannah would not have consented to a ride with JM? I think she did. I think it's clear from the moment she ran into JM, at that encounter, she was agreeable to go with him. I don't think the ride was what she had expected. But can't prove that. That she didn't get home, doesn't prove that JM didn't drop her off there and something happen then. Or if she didn't agree to go elsewhere first and then decide to leave the car herself there. A lot of possibiltiies and no one can disprove any of them. Especially without finding Hannah.

Now if they find her with certain DNA of JM in strategic places, that's a whole other story. But she could have jumped into a car with someone else now and be in Galveston TX , having decided to start a whole new life.

ANd no I don't really believe that, but it's possible. And things like that have happened enough times that it isn't beond reasonble doubt. She could have even been sold into white slavery as some were speculating earlier (what happened to those proponents?).

 

[lateott]

Simply giving a drunk person a ride cannot be considered abduction. Giving a ride to someone too drunk to consent to the ride cannot be abduction. Nobody can seriously believe we would want to construct such a law!

Unless we want a lot more inebriated partiers just left on the floor/chair/curb/couch/grass until they wake up in the morning. Or worse, left to drive home on their own because a good Samaritan is worried about facing an abduction charge if the person reconsiders in the morning whether they had wanted a ride.

Last one seen with a missing person is a bit different, but a felony has to be more than "absence of consent to walk with," or "absence of consent to ride with."

 

[LG3]

I think Hannah did go willingly with JM. I believe he offered her a ride, and she accepted and was in her right mind enough to know what she was doing She was lost, tired, confused and wanted to go back to her part of town, and it was late. So a ride would have been god send to her, and I've no doubt JM"s demeanor was not at all threatening to her. Had he just given her a ride back, and she'd gotten home, there wouldn't be this problem So the offer of the ride, getting into the car, going with JM, all of that is fine. It's if there were a change in plans after she got into the car, if JM did not take her where she wanted to go, did things to her to which she did not consent, and if he harmed her, raped her and killed her that there is a big problem, and that is the case at hand now But there isn't any proof that happened. Maybe he did drop her off where she wanted, or maybe she agreed to go for a ride with him, and then he dropped her off where she wanted to dropped off after some recreational sex somewhere? Understand that JM doesn't have to say a thing to explain all of this. The DA has to prove otherwise. That's the way it works in court. Innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

(Quote shortened for relativity) I think you're exactly right. I think she went willingly with him because she was drunk and lost in an unfamiliar area all by herself. She went from the safety zone of the campus area, to the downtown area where all the locals are. When you're a college student, people in their late 20's and early 30's seem really old to you. That's the general age demographic of people who hit the bars on the downtown mall on weekend nights. I honestly think there's a good chance he used WG to his advantage and tried to play the "hero" like "hey, are you OK? You're all by yourself and there's this guy following you. Do you need a ride somewhere? I'm a taxi driver/used to be a taxi driver, etc. Oh you need to get to 14th and Wertland? Yeah I work right by there! Wait for me outside this bar so that guy stops following you and I'll go grab a couple drinks and then be right back out to give you a ride home." Right there he immediately makes her realize she is vulnerable in being followed by WG, and he's the safe guy looking out for her. JMO. I also think the video backs that theory up - JM qiuckly crosses the mall and catches up to HG and WG, and manages to walk fast enough to get in front of them and come swooping in as the hero. Again, JMO.

 

[LG3]

I realize I totally messed up that "reply to quote", and I'm sorry. I'm still new here, and obviously have a lot to learn! I was just trying to reply to Jamicat's last paragraph as my response was only relevant to that part.

 

[Emaa]

I think it's far less relevant to the charge that she entered his car willingly as it is he wouldn't allow her to leave.