The Bonfire

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Would this include any eye witness testimony, or just the ones we pick and choose to believe? Such as as the coerced eye witness testimony given by BD after he was fed with information for 2 days?

I don't exactly believe everything from BD either. We are getting off topic I feel like with all this propane guy talk. It's ok to agree to disagree, we all reach conclusions our own way. To be clear though eye witness testimony from bystanders and statements made by suspects are two totally different things. Apples and Oranges.
 
I don't exactly believe everything from BD either. We are getting off topic I feel like with all this propane guy talk. It's ok to agree to disagree, we all reach conclusions our own way. To be clear though eye witness testimony from bystanders and statements made by suspects are two totally different things. Apples and Oranges.

The devil is in the details - what would everyone be saying if not only did the propane truck drive see TH's RAV4, but also saw SA driving ?
 
The devil is in the details - what would everyone be saying if not only did the propane truck drive see TH's RAV4, but also saw SA driving ?
For me it would be does the evidence allow this to be true? I'm not just going to accept eyewitness testimony as absolute fact. At the moment, I rely on her last appointment and known location was Averys. Her vehicle was found there, as were her valuables and remains. This leads me to believe her nor her vehicle ever left that property and SA calling her 4:30 helps confirm that.
 
For me it would be does the evidence allow this to be true? I'm not just going to accept eyewitness testimony as absolute fact. At the moment, I rely on her last appointment and known location was Averys. Her vehicle was found there, as were her valuables and remains. This leads me to believe her nor her vehicle ever left that property and SA calling her 4:30 helps confirm that.

Just as eyewitness testimony can be scrutinized, so can circumstantial evidence. No one but the killer knows whether TH's vehicle ever left the Avery Salvage yard on 10/31. With supporting evidence, I could be convinced quite easily that SA knocked TH out, put her in the back of the RAV4, and left the Avery Salvage Yard only to return via the gravel pit entrance to finish the murder he started. That would explain how the propane truck driver saw the RAV4 as SA might have driven off property as to not arouse suspicion among anyone actually working in the junkyard.
 
For me it would be does the evidence allow this to be true? I'm not just going to accept eyewitness testimony as absolute fact. At the moment, I rely on her last appointment and known location was Averys. Her vehicle was found there, as were her valuables and remains. This leads me to believe her nor her vehicle ever left that property and SA calling her 4:30 helps confirm that.

The 4:35 call can't be attributed to anything. Avery claims it was an attempt to get Halbach to return to photograph another vehicle. There is nothing to dispute this. All you are left with is a phone that stopped working at 2:41. There is zero evidence anything happened to her during that time. For all we know her phone battery died at that point, she got the whole way home and something happened to her there.

For me, her phone's last location might be important but it doesn't absolutely indicate, beyond all doubt, that that was the last place she traveled to.
 
The 4:35 call can't be attributed to anything. Avery claims it was an attempt to get Halbach to return to photograph another vehicle. There is nothing to dispute this. All you are left with is a phone that stopped working at 2:41. There is zero evidence anything happened to her during that time. For all we know her phone battery died at that point, she got the whole way home and something happened to her there.

For me, her phone's last location might be important but it doesn't absolutely indicate, beyond all doubt, that that was the last place she traveled to.

Thank you, I respect your opinion I just happen to disagree and that's ok. I don't need anything to be "beyond all doubt" "beyond a reasonable doubt" is not as high a standard as all doubt. Any case I look at I look at the whole picture painted by the evidence. I don't single out the evidence and explain it away piece by piece. There could be an explanation/excuse for everything in every case. Is it reasonable to conclude that her phone no longer worked because it was tossed in burn barrel, where it was later found?
 
I keep seeing the suggestion that bones "intertwined" with steel belts would confirm the burning in that pit but weren't they bone fragments?


Yes but it was testified that some of the fragments had to be physically seperated from the steel belts.

Day 18
SPECIAL AGENT RODNEY PEVYTOE ~ Transcript pages 18, 19, 20 and 21


Q. Did you find any interest in and around the dog house?

A. Not in what I expected to be human remains, but we were in the process of taking everything that was there to ensure for it's preservation.

Q. After examining the dog house and the elevated dirt pile, how did you proceed?

A. Once we completed that elevated area, we then proceeded into this depression that's been called the burn pit. I divided that pit in half, visually, east and west. And we moved in from its perimeter, the edge of it, on our hands and knees and moved through that, and removing items that we suspected would be evidence. And eventually removed all of the ash, there was like a caked, baked on layer of the top soil right there. Actually crumbled that and sifted all the debris and then preserved and removed all of that from the same.

Q. All right. Tell us about the material that you found as you began to examine the burn pit.

A. Well, there was this heavy layer of black -- blackened soil. It kind of had an oily residue. There was some heavy black, dark charred material. Didn't look like cellulose or wood type charring, although there was some there. There were some different remains of -- I think there was like a couple hinges, and like different metal parts that we would encounter in that process. And also we found some things that we suspected were some potential bone fragmentation.

Q. And tell us about some of the other items; did you find any wire, for instance?

A. Yes, just off to the side of the burn pit there was a large ball of intertwined wire that was present. And then there was also the metal remains of what I thought was the -- like a back seat of a SUV type vehicle that had been removed and that also was burned.

Q. All right. And tell us, was there anything noteworthy about the balls of wire that you found in conjunction with your examination of the pit area?

A. Yes, the wire is consistent with what I have seen in the past in other fires. And it's the wire that remains after steel belted radial tires are burned. So we had this large groupings of oval shaped wires, so to speak, that were all entwined. And in examining those, I noticed that there was some bone fragmentation entangled in the wires, so we attempted to photograph that and recover those items also. And eventually took the whole tangled wires and that rear car seat that I had mentioned.

Q. All right. In your fire investigative experience, can you tell us whether steel belted radial tires, do they burn?

A. Yes.


Q. And is rubber considered an accelerant?


A. It can be. It certainly has -- When we look at materials, we judge it by the amount of heat energy it releases. And in my definition, tires being introduced to a fire greatly enhances its ability to burn. It releases a lot more heat energy into it and I believe that tires can be used as a form to accelerate a fire.

Q. All right. Now, why did you take the rear seat of the vehicle; why was that of some particular interest to you?

A. Well, first of all, because it was there. And it was in the crime scene area, so we removed that. And, also, I didn't know if it would be matched up to a vehicle later on. And, also, the seat itself may have had some impact on the way the fire burned. The foam rubber on the seat, once the seat covering is removed in a combustion process, the foam rubber also burns with great intensity.

Q. All right. Approximately how long did the processing of this area take?

A. Several hours because we went into the hours of darkness that day. I wanted to -- Once we initiated the process, I wanted to complete it. So we brought in a generator and some large -- several sets of large floodlights to illuminate the area. It might have been as late as 9, 10:00, when we were completed.

Q. Okay. With the -- With the items that you suspected of evidentiary value, what -- what did you do with those items which were collected from this area?

A. Deputy Riemer was, again, accompanying us in this examination. His role was to take any items that we seized as evidence and, then, he was the evidence custodian for that process.
 
I have looked and can NOT find any confirmation or test results that his opinion of what he described as... some things that we suspected were some potential bone fragmentation. were actually human and/or bone.
 
I can't imagine if he were sentenced to death, and were innocent.

Just thinking out loud.

And I agree Sustained. In my honest opinion, those phone records, along with much of the evidence or facts, hell even the DNA " expert " in this case, ahem :notgood:

I think there is a reason for KZ. There is a reason that MAM aired and brought this case to light, AGAIN. There is a REASON, this case is gaining WORLDWIDE ATTENTION and EVERYONE is talking about it!!! ( Not just a documentary )

COINCIDENCE? Nah.
God, No God Higher Power, Braham, Buddah, Mary, Allah, I am THANKFUL.

Thankful because I have learned A LOT.

Most important, my once NARROW mind is becoming MUCH less narrow :happydance:

If this entire Steve Avery ordeal turns out to be for NOTHING!
( KZ ends up representing her FIRST EVER GUILTY CLIENT) One thing I've never been is PROUD. I'll graciously admit I had him pegged all wrong. (I'll have a heck of a tough time believing it, however I will admit it):blushing:
The 4:35 call can't be attributed to anything. Avery claims it was an attempt to get Halbach to return to photograph another vehicle. There is nothing to dispute this. All you are left with is a phone that stopped working at 2:41. There is zero evidence anything happened to her during that time. For all we know her phone battery died at that point, she got the whole way home and something happened to her there.

For me, her phone's last location might be important but it doesn't absolutely indicate, beyond all doubt, that that was the last place she traveled to.
 
I DO get what you mean with this entire statement.
I can also agree to disagree.

What bothers me the most is this, ( only have had a half cup of coffee and trying to get some reading in before my girl wakes up, here it goes )

When folks say " Does the evidence allow this to be true? " I cringe a little and here is why,
THERE ARE OBVIOUS SIGNS EVIDENCE IS/WAS/HAS BEEN;

tampered with, not taken care of properly, (Blood evidence )

not PHOTOGRAPHED to begin with ( crime scene )

Missing, partly submitted, blacked out ( Phone records )

Expert testimony? Did we have EXPERTS on this case? ANYONE?

DNA Evidence? Was Sherry Culhane our only RELIABLE *cough* EXPERT?

A few questionable absolute facts.
Understand WHY some of us feel the way we do?? How can so many feel this is such an open and shut case??:eek:

For me it would be does the evidence allow this to be true? I'm not just going to accept eyewitness testimony as absolute fact. At the moment, I rely on her last appointment and known location was Averys. Her vehicle was found there, as were her valuables and remains. This leads me to believe her nor her vehicle ever left that property and SA calling her 4:30 helps confirm that.
 
THIS

THESE towns are population, NILL

Local, VERY small rural fill up station

I highly doubt he was mistaken and should have been allowed to speakQUOTE=Sinsaint;12312864]Well, the population in Bum****egypt isn't anywhere near the population of Bay Area California. Furthermore, he was a regular guy, regular route, regular routine. Seeing a vehicle leave that property might be considered unusual. Over populated California with a case itching for people looking for five minutes of fame... Ahem... I mean witnesses isn't the same geography/timing as a guy who just lives his life, notices a RAV4 exiting the property and reports it. Point is... This guy isn't an attention *advertiser censored*. How does that make testimony less worthy of consideration?[/QUOTE]
 
Sorry if I'm posting in the wrong place. I just finished watching the 10 episode series and no other background reading or viewing.

How long was the bonfire allegedly burning for? Would it be likely for it to reach a sufficient temperature for that kind of damage to human remains? Could the tires in the fire have masked any scent of human remains being burned in that bonfire?

What about the examination of the human remains? Did they find remnants of other items known to have been in that night's bonfire mixed in with the remains found in the burn-pit in Avery's yard, and same question for the remains found in the other locations?

What kind of forensics did they use when testing the remains and debris they were found in/with? What other debris was in there with the remains? Was it purely burned rubber and wood, or was there any burned debris from stuff like branches, leaves or soil?
 
:wagon:

You are in the right place :) sometimes the information that is already posted is cross posted, we have a thread on the bones, which also talks about the fire, this thread probably talks about the bones too lol

I'm not sure how to answer your questions, because I am a "doubter" and I don't want to give you my opinion, glad you have come here to read and look for answers :)

The prosecution said that SA had the fire going from 5pmish into the night. It's said that he had used tires to fuel the fire. I guess the tires could have masked the smell.

As for the examination and the forensics done on the burn pit... sigh... sadly, in my opinion, it was poorly investigated, poorly photographed, and no forensic anthropologist or forensic specialist was called in. The coroner was blocked from entering the property to get to the scene (stated that it was a conflict, although LE from Manitowoc were there investigating), this was against protocol.

It looks like you have some questions, keep reading, you will find some answers, and some I don't think you will find, which usually leads to more questions ;-)

if you go to this thread http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...ary-on-Steven-Avery-4&p=12326876#post12326876 you will see that we have been discussing some of the things you are asking, among other things :)
 
Thank you, Missy :)

I remembered the series saying there were no forensic anthropologists for the removal of the remains, but I wasn't sure what kind of forensics actually were done. Full forensics examination should be mandatory for those kind of remains...
 
I agree with you Amonet! Even photographs of where the bones outside of the fire pit were found could have been helpful IMO A picture with all the little evidence tags of how far out they were scattered/found would sure help me visualize and I think would have helped experts make some better determinations as well.
 
I was going to put this in a different thread but since it's about the fire I figured it should go here. Has anyone been to an outdoor fire? Campfire? Bombfire? Anyone that has knows if you simply walk up to the fire and look in it you can see EVERYTHING... Logs, embers, discarded hamburgers and hot dogs. There isn't much you CAN'T see in a fire.

Any one of Avery's relatives could have popped over unannounced. "Gee Steven, Where did you find that giant body shaped tire?" Covering the body with a few tires, a seat and a cabinet wouldn't have hidden the body while it was burning.
 
I was going to put this in a different thread but since it's about the fire I figured it should go here. Has anyone been to an outdoor fire? Campfire? Bombfire? Anyone that has knows if you simply walk up to the fire and look in it you can see EVERYTHING... Logs, embers, discarded hamburgers and hot dogs. There isn't much you CAN'T see in a fire.

Any one of Avery's relatives could have popped over unannounced. "Gee Steven, Where did you find that giant body shaped tire?" Covering the body with a few tires, a seat and a cabinet wouldn't have hidden the body while it was burning.

I listened to the podcast with Dr. Fairgrieve last night.... He said something like, people that try to burn bodies in an open fire like that are usually surprised at how hard it is, it can sometimes take days.

Not only that... how does one get remotely close to a fire of that size and temperature needed to break up her bones and stir it around?

Shoot, a good fire at a campsite can get hot enough that you have to have a super long stick to roast a weiner! A fire with tires.... hmmmm
 
I just read here somewhere, sorry I forget which thread (am going to start writing down where I've been!) that someone burnt their victims body for 3 days to get rid of the evidence. Think it was in WI too.
Ill try and have a look for it.

ETA- damn, cant find it.
 
In this case the evidence wasn't gone. TH's bones (one a full tibia with some tissue still attached) were found--bones from every part of her skeleton. Lots of charred fragments, yes, although it's likely those fragments were created from the burned/burning bones being hit so they would break into smaller and smaller pieces.
 
Yea...how would a person get close enough to a fire that size, and that HOT?
I listened to the podcast with Dr. Fairgrieve last night.... He said something like, people that try to burn bodies in an open fire like that are usually surprised at how hard it is, it can sometimes take days.

Not only that... how does one get remotely close to a fire of that size and temperature needed to break up her bones and stir it around?

Shoot, a good fire at a campsite can get hot enough that you have to have a super long stick to roast a weiner! A fire with tires.... hmmmm
 

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