The case for murder

[K_Z]

....IF she went over the balcony.......

Hi Gilgamesh,

I know that there are a number of people who believe Rebecca did not go over the balcony to her death, but was murdered elsewhere and staged into the noose from below. There may be other scenarios beside that one. I've stated that I think the autopsy supports a long drop. I think that the autopsy photos (which haven't been released to the public, and hopefully never will be) also can show evidence to other experts of the injuries in relation to the noose in situ, and support the long drop as COD.

I'm actually very interested to hear someone elaborate a bit on counter theories-- how or why they believe she was not killed in the long drop from the balcony. I can't reconcile the severe neck tearing of the soft structures and the hemorrhage with any other scenario besides a long drop while she was still alive with a beating heart, though perhaps unconscious or semi conscious. I do think she could have been partially strangled prior (the second ligature mark).

I'd be interested to read how others think she could have come to that damage and not sustained a long drop. Strangulation alone wouldn't cause that pattern of tearing injuries, with active hemorrhage.

Another thought I forgot to add a couple days ago.

Another reason I think Rebecca was tortured and taunted by a woman/ women is precisely because she was NOT sexually assaulted.

The goal of power position by the murderer was achieved by restraint and psychological torture, and the physical torture preceding the moment of murder was almost perfunctory. IMO, the goal of the female murderer was to torture her mind while she was conscious, telling that she was going to be killed and displayed grotesquely when they were done with her. The nudity was "enough" sexual humiliation for the female murderer-- sexual assault and torture (by instrument, or voyeurism of a rape conducted by a man) was just not the goal. Psychological torture was the goal of the murderer, imo. Sexual assault and torture would have also been too "messy" for this murderer, imo. Edited to add-- Frankly, I get the sense the murderer didn't want to TOUCH Rebecca any more than she absolutely had to.

Males who murder and torture sadistically frequently have also sexually assaulted/ tortured the victim when the victim is found nude and bound, I have read. (I don't have a link handy for that statement, so consider it my opinion until I find a good discussion to link.)

 

[minazoe]

i feel Becky was tortured to try to get a confession, maybe the black words were written to her...not by her. just thinking out of the box...maybe tied up made to watch the *advertiser censored*, the video, maybe after awhile when it was known Max wouldn't make it, she was disposed of.

as I said before...I think if she was murdered, the killer enjoyed it.

 

[MissJ]

Just hoping this case will be reopened

 

[bourne]

....IF she went over the balcony.......

Given the extensive damage and the pattern of injuries to Becky's neck as reported in the two ME reports, one of which is from Dr. Wecht, it certainly appears that she was thrown over the balcony. I'm curious why you believe differently?

I think it's likely she was strangled first and then tossed over the balcony by the twins.

 

[coastal]

Given the extensive damage and the pattern of injuries to Becky's neck as reported in the two ME reports, one of which is from Dr. Wecht, it certainly appears that she was thrown over the balcony. I'm curious why you believe differently?

I think it's likely she was strangled first and then tossed over the balcony by the twins.

If she was forced to throw herself over the balcony, say, at the point of a knife, and if she had also likewise been forced to tie herself up, the physical evidence could only show that she had killed herself. Right?

Still, and even so, this was murder.


((Happy New Year, everybody!))

 

[time]

Given the extensive damage and the pattern of injuries to Becky's neck as reported in the two ME reports, one of which is from Dr. Wecht, it certainly appears that she was thrown over the balcony. I'm curious why you believe differently?

I think it's likely she was strangled first and then tossed over the balcony by the twins.

I agree bourne, except I think it's possible she was hung, but from a different place - long enough of a drop to cause that damage, then it was staged to look like it was the balcony. I typically don't like complications like this when considering a theory and the only reason I still propose it is to explain the lack of dust on the railing and so forth. Maybe it was just too obvious if she was hung from the inside balcony.

 

[bourne]

I agree bourne, except I think it's possible she was hung, but from a different place - long enough of a drop to cause that damage, then it was staged to look like it was the balcony. I typically don't like complications like this when considering a theory and the only reason I still propose it is to explain the lack of dust on the railing and so forth. Maybe it was just too obvious if she was hung from the inside balcony.

Hi Time, besides the anatomical injuries, another reason I believe Becky had to be tossed over the balcony is that the murderer(s) were trying to simulate Max's second-storied accident to give Becky a "taste" of what Max must have felt as he lunged over the second-storied bannister onto the chandelier. The suffocation, dangling off second-storied balcony, hanging for dear life, etc. were designed to mimic Max's second-storied fall.

The lack of dust on balcony can be explained by having the twins stand at the doorway of balcony and then throwing Becky over the railing from there. Given the twins' heights, it would not be hard to swing Becky back for momentum -- using the ropes which likely first tied her wrists to ankles (like a hogtie thus accounting for the long tail of rope that extended out of Becky's wrists) -- and then tossing her over. The twins did not need to step onto the balcony in order to toss Becky's body over.

My thinking is that the twins did not directly hold Becky's nude body with their hands/gloved hands. Rather, they held Becky in a prone position (stomach down) by the ropes that tied Becky's hands and ankles behind her back. Each twin was standing at lateral sides of door for maximum leverage. They first swung Becky's bound body sideways in the direction of the room to gain momentum and force and then swung her outwards towards the balcony.

As the ME report said that there was a firm noose knot on the right side of Becky's neck, we know the noose was already tightly bound and in place around Becky's neck before Becky was thrown over. The twins threw Becky's nude body over the balcony with Becky's hip lightly making contact against the balcony railing creating the small clearing of dust on the railing.

The tiny toeprints might have been made earlier by another person(s). The forensics never stated that the prints were indeed identical to Becky's, but rather that they were "consistent" with someone her size.

Also, from what I recall, there was another shoe print (not the police officer's bootprint) at the entrance of the balcony door as well. I think that shoe print belonged to one of the murderer(s).

 

[Quester]

Re: foyer/grand staircase area; damage to upper balcony Newel post area

How is it known whether or not the damage to the upper Newel post area occurred just preceding and in conjunction with MS’ “fall” OR cover-up attempt of MS' "fall" OR if it occurred preceding and in conjunction with RZ’ death OR had nothing whatsoever to do with either incident?

What if RZ was “asked” to demonstrate the particulars of MS’ “fall” as she understood it?

[I know! Outlandish idea – but these two cases are outlandish!]

 

[time]

Re: foyer/grand staircase area; damage to upper balcony Newel post area

How is it known whether or not the damage to the upper Newel post area occurred just preceding and in conjunction with MS’ “fall” OR cover-up attempt of MS' "fall" OR if it occurred preceding and in conjunction with RZ’ death OR had nothing whatsoever to do with either incident?

What if RZ was “asked” to demonstrate the particulars of MS’ “fall” as she understood it?

[I know! Outlandish idea – but these two cases are outlandish!]

I think the only evidence we know of is Jonah saying it was not there the night/day before Max's accident. When was the damage documented on the Newell post, was it before Rebecca's murder?

I do think there is some chance it didn't have anything directly to do with Max's accident. I don't think anything I've read thus far has convinced me that the paint on the scooter is from the post, that the marks have been explained as part of the accident, or that the marks had to have been made between the day before and by the time Max had the accident.

Some of this could be recreated if it were related to Max's accident and at least explained - how was the scooter up there and how did it move to make those marks, and therefore, how does that mean Max's accident occurred taking that into consideration - as well as how do the marks on his back match the scooter (or as claimed the railing, which I'm just not seeing at all). Paint could have been tested.

Why were there marks low on the adjacent wall paint?

I can't see it as a cover-up though - it doesn't make sense.

Who knows though if those marks were made the night before or earlier that morning?

 

[time]

Hi Time, besides the anatomical injuries, another reason I believe Becky had to be tossed over the balcony is that the murderer(s) were trying to simulate Max's second-storied accident to give Becky a "taste" of what Max must have felt as he lunged over the second-storied bannister onto the chandelier. The suffocation, dangling off second-storied balcony, hanging for dear life, etc. were designed to mimic Max's second-storied fall.<snipped for brevity>

bourne, I agree, I think there are explanations where she could have been tossed over the balcony. I don't think there is an explanation for her climbing over herself.

 

[bourne]

bourne, I agree, I think there are explanations where she could have been tossed over the balcony. I don't think there is an explanation for her climbing over herself.

Yep, the lack of Becky's DNA and prints on the balcony railing means she did not climb over the balcony to hop off and hang herself. Particularly because Becky's hands and ankles were bound behind her back, there is no way she could have climbed over without making a mess on the balcony and railings, and no way her prints/DNA would not be left all over the balcony/railings. This means that someone else had to have been there to throw Becky over the railing. Becky did not magically hop over the railing.

 

[bourne]

I think the only evidence we know of is Jonah saying it was not there the night/day before Max's accident. When was the damage documented on the Newell post, was it before Rebecca's murder?

I do think there is some chance it didn't have anything directly to do with Max's accident. I don't think anything I've read thus far has convinced me that the paint on the scooter is from the post, that the marks have been explained as part of the accident, or that the marks had to have been made between the day before and by the time Max had the accident.

Some of this could be recreated if it were related to Max's accident and at least explained - how was the scooter up there and how did it move to make those marks, and therefore, how does that mean Max's accident occurred taking that into consideration - as well as how do the marks on his back match the scooter (or as claimed the railing, which I'm just not seeing at all). Paint could have been tested.

Why were there marks low on the adjacent wall paint?

I can't see it as a cover-up though - it doesn't make sense.

Who knows though if those marks were made the night before or earlier that morning?

I agree, a re-creation of both deaths at the crime scenes would help.

 

[Quester]

Was anything ever revealed/disclosed/speculated about the dirty finger prints on the stucco wall below the balcony near the cactus-like plant?

Did LE take fingerprints and determine whose they were?

Did AR make mention/offer explanation in her book?

TIA

 

[inthedark14]

Thanks to our lovely K_Z I get why she had to go over that balcony. I don't want to know what I know now, but I had to understand it to get there. The injuries to her neck could not have happened without a long drop hanging. Unless someone so much taller than her held her at such an angle that she suffered those injuries.

I'm super interested in that newel post. JS said those marks where not there prior to MS having fallen. How much time did JS spend in the house after the incident? Did he spend precious minutes away from his dying child to inspect the woodwork? I doubt it. We only know that sometime between prior to MS being hurt and RZ being killed major damage was done to the woodwork in the spreckles mansion. I wish we knew when those pictures were taken.

I'm struck again at the cruelty and awfulness of everything that has to do with this case. There is so much nastiness out there to wade through, all kinds of bogus reports and so called research.

Here we are, closing in on two years later and we know NOTHING.

Yet, we are still here.

My WS friends...I don't know how to make a new thread but can someone do that? Let's list the reasons why we are still here.

TIA
Always MOO

 

[bourne]

Thanks to our lovely K_Z I get why she had to go over that balcony. I don't want to know what I know now, but I had to understand it to get there. The injuries to her neck could not have happened without a long drop hanging. Unless someone so much taller than her held her at such an angle that she suffered those injuries.

I'm super interested in that newel post. JS said those marks where not there prior to MS having fallen. How much time did JS spend in the house after the incident? Did he spend precious minutes away from his dying child to inspect the woodwork? I doubt it. We only know that sometime between prior to MS being hurt and RZ being killed major damage was done to the woodwork in the spreckles mansion. I wish we knew when those pictures were taken.

I'm struck again at the cruelty and awfulness of everything that has to do with this case. There is so much nastiness out there to wade through, all kinds of bogus reports and so called research.

Here we are, closing in on two years later and we know NOTHING.

Yet, we are still here.

My WS friends...I don't know how to make a new thread but can someone do that? Let's list the reasons why we are still here.

TIA
Always MOO

I agree about the extreme cruelty and awfulness in the case. I think it's likely Jonah superficially examined the staircase area where Max had fallen when he went home to shower and change clothes on Monday night.

 

[Gilgamesh]

Tick tock? Or RIP?

 

[Gilgamesh]

I take everything I read on the CP with a healthy dose of skepticism (big eye roll), but several things have piqued my interest lately. The most recent being that someone stated that a senator is looking into this case. Is this true? Does anyone know?

 

[screecher]

Well. IMO, SOMEONE is looking into it...otherwise we would have heard LONG AGO the request was trashed.

 

[SunnieRN]

That's a pretty good theory! My thoughts have run in a similar thread. I have puzzled why JS would "cover" for Dina/ Nina if he had any knowledge or suspicion that they murdered RZ. The only plausible answers I have come up with are:

1.) JS knew nothing, or

2.) JS knew AS was involved along with Dina/ Nina, and is keeping quiet to protect AS's involvement, or

3.) JS knew Dina was headed in Rebecca's way to have some kind of angry/ violent confrontation, and didn't do much or anything to prevent it. He may not have anticipated that Dina was angry enough to actually kill Rebecca. He may have called RZ warning her Dina was furious, and was going to confront her-- that may be the "final" voicemail that is lost. When he found out the next morning that AS found her hanging, had to protect both his knowledge that Dina was on the warpath, and whatever level of involvement AS had. Which leads to keeping quiet about Dina/ Nina as well, to protect him and AS. I lean towards #3 the most strongly.

I can't think of any other theoretical situations where Jonah "knew" something, but would protect Dina or Nina from charges or investigation.

I have rejected the idea that JS ordered some kind of "hit" on RZ.

I'm on the fence about Adam's level of involvement.

I absolutely believe Dina and Nina were involved. The extreme anger and humiliation aspects of the murder have always appeared to me to be the work of a jealous and vindictive woman/ women, with a strong element of sadism. I believe Rebecca was taunted and tortured by another woman/ women in the process of murdering her. However, the act of tossing her over the balcony could have had male involvement for strength.

I don't think the murder was planned too far in advance-- as Lash has opined, it may have started out as "simply" an angry confrontation, that evolved to restraint and torture, that then "had" to be cleaned up with a murder to keep her quiet about what happened. Either way, it's premeditated first degree murder to me. But I am also a realist that it will never be charged that way. At best, if any charges ever came about in the years to come, manslaughter or 2nd degree. But I even doubt any criminal charges will ever come about.

The murderers got away with it. They hit the lottery with the suicide ruling, imo. They continue to be vigilant, imo, but they are full of hubris, and continue to feel secure attacking RZ post mortem. But I doubt that they will ever be charged. It would be nice if someone would grow a conscience and confess to what happened, but I doubt that will ever happen, either. AS has to be kept out of the spotlight, and away from the media, because he is so oddly verbally impulsive, he is the one who could inadvertently say something to implicate all 4 of them, imo. Dina and Nina have each other's backs, and are smart enough to keep quiet. Jonah just wants Dina and Nina completely out of his life, and appears to be doing his best to shut them out and ignore them, imo. Dina, and Nina, imo, will live under a cloud of suspicion for the rest of their lives.

If Dina files a suit against Jonah, with her extreme level of hubris, she may completely underestimate his counter move, imo. If she is smart, imo, she will just go away and live the rest of her life on the winnings from the divorce settlement, and not try for more. He could come out of the woodwork and squash her like a bug, imo.

Just to set the record straight, there was no deleted voice mail left on Rebecca's phone that night.

The phone records were made public by Anne and she made a statement about the fact that the mysterious erased voice mail did not exist.

So, what was Jonah's reason for lying about calling Rebecca?? This should be a pertinent question, that should have demanded an answer. Where there is one lie, there are often many, many more.

it's just mysterious, the knots, the *advertiser censored* , the asian bondage animation, makes you wonder.

I keep wondering if Rebecca has ever been in any *advertiser censored*... her family and friends will insist she did not, but it is possible...i find the idea of someone looking at *advertiser censored* with an unknown card during the deathwatch of a child...very very odd. That it leaned toward Asian in content is even odder.

the screaming doesn't really mean anything, if she killed herself she could have had a massive meltdown and been screaming from shock...perhaps she never processed the accident and was in denial until she got the news.

still the whole scene is so completely bizarre that I don't believe it was a suicide.

Funny, the names change, but the sentiment remains the same.

Spot on, Betty P. I completely agree that the pace and tempo of the investigation into Max's death indicates that the police had no suspicions of any foul play on behalf of Rebecca or her sister, or Jonah.

However, I disagree that the doctors did not know about Max's cord contusion until autopsy. I firmly believe that the evidence that they did know is in his medical records.I believe they knew this before Rebecca died. I also believe with strong certainty that they told both Jonah and Dina about this, even if it was not completely apparent on the first MRI-- certainly on the second MRI it was evident. Once the initial radiographs demonstrated no bony damage to the cervical spine, with the enormous sagittal skull fracture, and prolonged cardiac arrest, they absolutely suspected severe cord damage. And even if by some strange chance this was not communicated to Dina and Jonah (or not understood by them), the very fact that he had a documented 30 min arrest (and likely a few min longer than from when EMT's arrived) from blunt head trauma gave him less than a 1% chance of survival on admission to Rady. Docs would have not been even cautiously optimistic, imo. I think the best Max ever achieved after admission to Rady was a level of some cardiovascular stability for a brief period of time. I do believe they told them as gently as they could, over several conversations, but I have never believed Dina's stories that everyone thought Max was going to make it, and just need a tutor for a few months. I think that the process to establish brain death began within a 2 days at most. I think the rapid pace at which Jonah's physician friend arrived also indicates how dire his prognosis was.

I think there is a good chance the reason Howard Luber immediately dropped what he was doing and flew in to help Jonah and Dina understand what was going on with Max, and be an advocate for them, as well as emotionally supporting them, is that Max was not expected to live. (Does anyone know if Luber has a busy practice? Not easy for a busy internal med doc to cancel days of clinic, hospital rounds, get other docs to cover hospitalized patients, etc and fly out with just a few hours notice.)

Jonah and Howard are VERY good friends. That was the reason for the visit.

 

[bourne]

Just to set the record straight, there was no deleted voice mail left on Rebecca's phone that night.

The phone records were made public by Anne and she made a statement about the fact that the mysterious erased voice mail did not exist.

So, what was Jonah's reason for lying about calling Rebecca?? This should be a pertinent question, that should have demanded an answer. Where there is one lie, there are often many, many more.



Funny, the names change, but the sentiment remains the same.



Jonah and Howard are VERY good friends. That was the reason for the visit.

How do you know there was no deleted voicemail on Becky's cellphone?

Becky's phone records show that someone accessed her voicemail at 12:50am Wednesday. My view is that Becky was already tied up and possibly unconscious and even dead at the time and the murderer(s) used Becky's phone to access her voicemail.

The police could have obtained Becky's last voicemails -- even those that were deleted from the service provider's (Verizon) databases -- had they been prompt and instructed Verizon within the allotted time period. As it were, the police intentionally contacted Verizon AFTER the allotted time (I think it was after 30 days) and all of Becky's voicemails at Verizon's databases had been purged by then.

So we don't know whether or not Jonah had left a voicemail on Becky's cellphone around midnight Tues. The only way to ascertain this info now is by obtaining Jonah's phone records and these records have not been disclosed to the public.