The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 2

[PositiveLight]

(12)
Back to round table in war room.


Dr.Spitz- "If you look carefully at those two marks in her back, there is a central defect
within each of the marks. That defect is from something penetrated through the skin. She was
without a blood circulation at the time. And the reason that she had no circulation is that there was
no evidence of blood in the pictures that were taken of those two marks."


Back at Ramsey reconstructed home in train room. Kolar and Laura standing by train set.


Laura- "So if we think that JonBenet suffered a blow to the head, you know she's on the floor.
She doesn't seem to be breathing, she's not conscious then somebody using a piece of train
track..."
Kolar- "Trying to see if they can get a response or awaken JonBenet. Is this something an
Adult would use to try to get a response from an unconscious girl? An adult would have been
calling 911 for an ambulance."
Laura- "Right."


Back to war room round table.


Kolar- "Like the notepad and the pen that was used for the ransom note, this is another
piece of evidence that could have been used in this assault on JonBenet and it was in the
home in the train room downstairs as well as in Burke's bedroom."
Dr. Spitz- "You know I would have to conclude that it's either this (holding a piece of
train track) or something like it."
Laura- "Jim and I certainly tried to speak with John and Burke and really just give them
an opportunity to speak."
Clemente- "We called John a number of times and left a number of messages on his voicemail
and they just did not want to talk to us. So from the statements that the Ramsey's
have made, we need to look at what happened according to the family."


Fitzgerald- "So the morning of Christmas.."


From the deposition of John Ramsey
John Ramsey- "Our normal tradition is that I go downstairs, turn on the Christmas tree lights, the
kids came down, we opened presents."


Laura- "They both got very nice gifts. JonBenet got a bike and doll."
Kolar- "After Christmas celebration and breakfast, the went to the White dinner party."
Dr. Spitz- "They came back home.."


Back to John Ramsey deposition of him speaking
John Ramsey," Um. JonBenet was asleep in the back of the car I carried her upstairs and
put her to bed."


Laura- "We know that Burke was playing with a toy and that he was with John.."

Deposition recording:
John Ramsey- "He was putting together a little plastic toy that he had gotten for
Christmas. I helped him finish it so he could get off to bed. And then I went to bed
myself."


Kolar- "So the next morning, Patsy, she got up to go downstairs to put on some coffee."
Dr. Lee- "Supposedly, when Mrs. Ramsey comes downstairs she found a note on the stair steps."
Celemente- "Either before she saw the note or after she saw the note, depending on which
statement she gave, she looked in JonBenet's room and saw she was gone."
Fitzgerald- "John woke up, at some point she woke him up.."

 

[PositiveLight]

(13)
Deposition recording:
John Ramsey- "I heard Patsy scream. I ran downstairs. She told me that JonBenet was missing.
That there was a ransom note. I said call the police. Sometime during that frantic period
we checked on Burke. He appeared to be asleep to us."


Clemente- "They claim that he was asleep the entire time. They never woke him up. Never asked him
if he heard anything. Never asked him if he knew where JonBenet was. Right after Patsy makes
that 911 call, she calls two family friends. The Fernies and the Whites and invites them to
come over. This is when the police arrive."
Kolar- "And then it is my understanding that John went downstairs in the basement."


Deposition recording:
John Ramsey- "I was trying to determine how someone could have gotten into our house. I saw
a partially open window with broken glass and a suitcase beneath the window."


Clemente- "Then John came upstairs and apparently Detective Arndt asked him to search the house
from top to bottom. So again John went down to the basement with Fleet White. He went into the
wine cellar..."


Depostion recording:
John Ramsey- "Opened the door and found JonBenet."


Clemente- "When they find the body, he disturbs the crime scene, takes the tape off of her
mouth, uh undoes one of the ligatures and then brings the body upstairs. Puts her on the
floor and then Linda Arndt moves the body to the living room on the floor there. Eventually,
the body ends up in the morgue and an autopsy is performed."
Dr. Spitz- "In my view this would have been so easy to figure out if they had not used joyous
good(?) shut the door to any additional investigation."
Clemente- "Yeah I believe the Ramsey's distanced themselves from the investigation while at
the same time claiming to the world through media appearances that they were fully
cooperating."


May 1, 1997 media appearance of John speaking
John Ramsey- "We spoke with the police for approximately 8 hours on the 26th and another
2 hours on the 27th. The impression that we haven't spoken with the police is total false."


Clemente- "Now that we've been investigating for months, we've been working together as a
team, I think we need to try to piece together everything that happened."
Clemente- "Anybody who does a legitimate investigation would look at all the evidence and
see where that evidence takes you. So we have to test every theory and the ones that
remain, are the ones that are supported by the evidence."
Laura- "I think some people have the theory that actually what had happened that night
was that after a stressful day of Christmas, that there was potentially an accident.
JonBenet wet herself or the bed and that Patsy just sort of snapped."
Fitzgerald- "As we know in profiling, past behavior is the best indicator of future
behavior and from my understanding of the Ramsey family, I don't believe there's been
any indicators of violent domestic abuse."
Stan Burke- "That child is a huge investment for her, you know, a lot of time, a lot
of effort has gone into that child. Had plans for that child. Lot of money lot of
resources."
Fitzgerald- "She seemed to be living vicariously in some ways through her daughter with
the whole beauty pageant thing going on."
Stan Burke- "And just to to snap and all of a sudden just take that away.."
Fitzgerald- "Basically from zero to 120 with a hammer over the head.. for mom."
Dr. Lee- "I agree with you."
Laura- "We've discussed the intruder theory that this was somebody from outside the house..."
Dr. Spitz- "No I don't believe that it was somebody from outside."
Clemente- "I don't think the evidence that stands up to scientific or behavioral scrutiny
indicates that somebody came in from outside that home and killed JonBenet."
Laura- "And of course you know the media speculating on a pedophile or sex offender. Dr.
Lee said that the DNA evidence in this case is totally erroneous."
Dr. Lee - "That DNA has no forensic value. It's really no sexual assault here."
Laura- "James (Kolar) I'm interested to know what exactly you think happened in the house that
night."
Kolar- "My hypothesis was that I think the Ramsey's came home around 9:30-10:00. I think JonBenet
was asleep and I think John did carry her upstairs. Patsy remained downstairs with Burke and
served him with tea and the pineapple. I think that accounts for the physical evidence as well as the
latent prints. Then I think she got JonBenet up to make sure she used the toilet so she didn't
wet the bed that night. JonBenet was up, she may or may not have brushed her teeth, that stuff was
out on the counter and then I think she was up and awake enough that maybe was still hungry
and she went downstairs in the meantime Patsy continued packing for the Michigan trip. I think
Burke was upset about circumstances of Christmas presents he probably would have been upset
about her trying to snag a piece of pineapple, out of anger he may have struck her with that
flashlight."
Dr. Spitz- "I think we already agree on that."
Clemente- "Yes."
Fitzgerald- "Yes."
Laura- "Absolutely."
Dr. Lee- "Sure. Yeah, I agree with that. However I think it's not the intentional murder. "
Clemente- "I agree there's no evidence to support it."
Stan Burke- "So you don't think there was no malice of forethought. Something happened to cause that?"
Dr. Lee- "Spur of the moment or something like that."
Clemente- "Or accidental death. It doesn't have to necessarily be a murder."
Dr. Spitz- "How can it be an accidental death? I cannot see anybody, even a child, taking a heavy
object like a flashlight and hitting it on somebody's head as an accident."
Clemente- "Maybe in anger he swung it faster than he thought he would. We're talking about a
10 year old who by the way, who had hit the same person in the head with a golfclub. And what
happened?"
Dr. Spitz- "Nothing happened."
Clemente- "Nothing happened."

 

[Bayareamom]

I have been a lurker on this site for years. This is my first time posting on this subject. I suspected Burke long before his Dr. Phil interviews and the CBS documentary recently broadcast. I'm no professional, no investigative experience (aside from these boards) but what I do have is common sense. I cannot understand why so many people are resistant to believe that Burk could very well have done this. After watching his interview with Dr. Phil, I'd bet my life that he falls somewhere on the ASD spectrum. That smile may very well have been nervousness, but his inability to empathize and even pretend that he was affected by the death of his sister is very telling. I have years of experience working with children and adults on the spectrum. His mannerisms and behavior were classic. That said before I get beheaded, I'm not saying anyone on the spectrum is capable of murder. I do believe the feces smearing is another common sign that this boy was / is not typical. High functioning kids on the spectrum are extremely intelligent and often times conversing with them is equal to conversing with an adult. The interviews that were played from age 9 and 11 again confirm in my opinion that he is not a typical child. His "going on with life" was easy to him as he had a disconnect with his family from the beginning. At age 9 it is not hard to imagine that he felt "different" from other kids. His father was most likely gone alot with work and I imagine that Jonbenet was attached to Patsy's hip. I can imagine that they were always off together shopping, practicing dance, and other pageantry things. I suspect that Burke was very jealous of Jonbenet for the extra attention shown to his sister from his parents as well as her ability to be a likeable and easy going child. I doubt very much that Burke had or has had any close relationships in his life. I don't think he is able to form them. His arrogance is typical of a person on the spectrum. They can come off as the most self serving, know it alls. That said I can easily see both these children venturing downstairs after being put to bed to admire or grab a new toy that may have still been under the christmas tree. I can easily see Burke down there first, serving himself tea and pineapple. Jonbenet enters and also wants some pineapple. Perhaps Burke took a piece out of the bowl and handed it to her or maybe she did in fact "steal" it herself out of the bowl. Either way this little girl ingested pineapple that night after being put to bed. Maybe they ventured downstairs to play or peek at the wrapped gifts that were left down there. But I believe it is where Burke hits his sister in the head. I don't believe he intentionally meant to kill her or fatally injure her. They are kids, siblings don't think twice about clobbering the other. I believe it was enough to knock her out. I believe Burke wouldn't know she was seriously injured, or quite frankly I'm not sure he had the ability to "care" that she was hurt. I think he was very angry with her and believe that he had issues in handling his anger. If in fact those marks on her are train track marks, they were not gently nudging her to see if she responded. They look like they were forced into her. I'm on the fence of whether or not he created the garrot (sp?). I believe he was intelligent enough to know how to fashion it though. Kids on the spectrum have strange obsessions, trains being a common one. He could easily have been very versed in knot tying. What kinds of video games did he play? Were they of a violent nature? Perhaps it's something he learned in a video game, or hanging out with Dad, or scouts, if he was one. I do believe that at some point he alerts his mother or she happens upon them in her tasks of packing for the morning trip. I believe he was sent to his room and that his mother staged the rest. She may have been the one creating the garrot (sp?) and in her attempt to deflect any and all of the events from family members began an hours long attempt to cover up for her son and create a scene that would deflect outside of her family members. I imagine that she did in deed love her children. I believe her grief was real, she truly mourned for Jonbenet. But I believe that she was vain enough to pull off such a cover up to protect her son and her family from the consequences that could come if people knew they truly were not the perfect family. She would rather have committed this cover up crime than be shamed by the community. There is no way that I'll ever believe this woman would wear the same outfit two days in a row. Lets not forget that her vanity and arrogance caused her to lay out her pageant gown and crown on the bed for all of the Christmas tourists to view. It would devastate her if people knew Burke was not a typical child and smeared feces. That Jonbenet was a bed wetter. That one of her perfect children could have fatally hurt the other perfect child. How would that reflect on her? It happens often. Siblings kill one another, it also happens that parents would defend and lie for their children in an attempt to "protect" them and the family name. I believe it was 9 days after when Burke was questioned by the Child Psychiatrist that the Ramsey's demanded. Plenty of time to coach Burke on "his part" of that nights events. Too much points to the perpetrator to be a tenant of that house. I don't believe the parents did it, never did. I do believe they lied to protect the one living child left. moo

I haven't posted a comment here in a very long time, but was thinking about posting a comment re the CBS Documentary...but then saw your comment. I have to say - I agree 100%. I just finished viewing the CBS doc a couple of days ago. Had no idea CBS was doing a special on this case. I'd heard about Dr. Phil's interview with Burke (and viewed it), but after viewing the CBS special, I completely turned myself around. I was NEVER a Burke did it, individual. I felt, as Detective Steve Thomas did, that Patsy was the perpetrator. But after viewing what these experts found during the CBS special, I fully believe - and accept - that Burke (unfortunately) is/was the guilty party.

IF this is the case, my heart goes out to the Ramsey family. I can only imagine what they must have been going through. John R. had already lost his beloved eldest daughter in a car accident a couple of years before this happened; Patsy was recovering from cancer. IF this is true, both these parents may very well have felt that at the minimum, social services may have become involved and could have taken their son away from them. OR perhaps they weren't aware of the Colorado law which states that a child under the age of 10 could not be charged with this type of crime. But as my husband just told me this morning, another issue for this family may have been their position within their community itself. They had a reputation of sorts that they were the perfect family. They had a reputation to uphold.

My sympathy wanes for them, however, when they sought to discredit and/or besmirch SO many of their friends and others of whom interacted with them at one time or another. Others' lives were ruined because of this murder. I am currently re-reading Steve Thomas' book. It's heartbreaking to read how many instances there were when simple, basic 101 things should have been done in this case (like search warrants for phone records), but the DA's office would not cooperate, nor approve, simple rudimentary search efforts.

Steve was interviewed by the CBS crew (for those of whom may not have viewed their special) and although he didn't say as much, I wondering if he's now on board with the "Burke may have done this," now that their research efforts into the case have been made public. The CBS crew is fully on board with Thomas that the ransom note was written by Patsy Ramsey.

I am still blown away with the effort that was put into this research by the CBS team. To me, they did an exemplary job in just 'following the evidence, no matter where it leads.' The conclusion reached was not an easy one for them to reach, as was so readily apparent when I viewed Part 2.

Young children accidentally harm/kill their siblings. It happens. Sometimes deliberately, as well. Judith Phillips was interviewed by the CBS team. She states emphatically that Burke had anger/temper issues during her interview. She was visibly upset, even after all these years, when speaking to the team. I believed her; she came across as a very believable individual. I admire the fact that she didn't 'go with the flow' of those who surrounded the Ramsey Team and wouldn't speak to the press. She wanted a resolution for that little girl's murder, no matter what the cost.

 

[PositiveLight]

(14)
Dr. Spitz- "Yeah cause he didn't hit her with that same force that he hit her with the flashlight."
Clemente- "So.. yeah ...well that's assuming that he understood."
Fitzgerald- "A golf club is designed to be swung and hit a ball. Maybe accident. Flashlight is
designed to shed light."
Dr. Lee- "Yes, for adult. Let's say... don't steal my pineapple! (swings magnifying glass down as example)
That's not... I don't think that's an intent kill."
Clemente- "Maybe it comes down to what accident means to you. For me, legally what an accident means is
if somebody who did not inform the intent to kill but.."
Dr. Spitz- "but still hits you with a lot of impact."
Clemente- "That could be a fact, but what you don't know is what's going on in his head."
Dr. Spitz- "But you don't know that either."
Dr. Lee- "Well, nobody knows! I don't think here have any elements of an intent to kill."
Clemente- "I don't think so either. But I think what we do find, though, is an intent to
mislead and an intent to cover up."
Dr. Lee- "Mislead (agreeing with Clemente)"
Stan Burke- "I think early on we discussed the lack of the family actually getting involved with
the investigation to begin with. And that is so atypical of what I see in a case where someone
close to you has passed away. You do whatever you can to get the case resolved. We didn't see that
here. But, maybe we did. Maybe we saw it with her brother. We do everything we can to protect this
child. We see it in the letter. It's a sales job. Trying to take the cops down a certain avenue and
we see it in the press conferences."


Snippet of Patsy in press conference "God knows who you are and we will find you."


Stan Burke- "Every step along the way we see it."
Kolar- "I thought Patsy made a couple of telling statements. One was during one of the other
interviews, she said that they loved their children and they would do anything for their children.
In the DSS interview, where she would have nothing left to live for if she lost Burke. That seemed to
me, motive for a cover-up. And I know there was some debate as to whether or not both parents were
involved in the cover up right away but I think the mixed motives in the ransom note..


Motives are shown of ransom note:
MOTIVES
small foreign faction- political
$118,000.00- monetary
execution beheaded- terroristic
provoke- Torture
Body- sexual assault


Kolar continues- "whether it's a sexual assault, pedophile, terrorism.."
Clemente-"terrorism"
Laura- "Political"
Kolar- "Mixed motives make it pretty clear that both parents were involved."
Clemente- "Yeah I mean I think from a profiling prospective, mixed motives tells us that it's a high
probability that more than one person involved in staging right?"
Fizgerald- "Arguably yes. That's the experience we've had looking at staged crime scenes over the years.
And I think that's what we have here. in the language utilized as well as the crime scene, itself the body
and everything else. Within an hour of this crime being committed, it was probably to cover up.
Starting with whatever they did to the body and certainly the writing of this letter, the 911 call, everything
that happened later. But, I don't think Burke was involved with the cover-up. He was not directly involved in
writing letters, he certainly didn't do the phone call to 911. He may have been there in the room as we found
out later. Now was he interviewed later on by investigators and child psychological experts and did he perhaps
say some things that perhaps were not exactly true that happened that night? That's very possible. But as far as
the cover-up itself, I would say, primarily, it's John and Patsy who were involved in that."
Clemente- "I think the most likely probability is the adults in that family, John and Patsy Ramsey and is consistent
with what the Grand Jury wanted to indict them for, staged this to look like a monster predator come in their house
and killed their daughter. It's my opinion that the Ramsey family did not want law enforcement to resolve this case.
And that's why it remains unsolved."
Fizgerald- "100% agree."
Dr. Spitz- "But what do you expect to accomplish by bringing this case back to life?"
Fitzgerald- "In the 20 years since this horrendous death I have no doubt someone involved in this homicide
talked to someone about what happened. And I would only hope at some point the persons who may have heard something
from John Ramsey, from Burke Ramsey, perhaps the late Patsy Ramsey would still come forth. I'd love to hear
from them."


Driving in car..
Clemente- "This is it."
Laura and Clemente stand in front of the original Ramsey home.
Clemente- "I can't imagine what it was like for the first responders here to find a six year old girl dead."
Laura- "This is a young girl whose become a footnote in her own murder."
Clemente- "This case has both haunted me since the beginning and pissed me off."


Clemente and Laura visit JonBenet's grave.


Laura- "It's just so sobering the reality that a six year old child lost her life. (placing flowers on JonBenet's
grave)"
Clemente- "I think in the end, this was about two parents who deeply cared for the daughter they lost and wanted
to protect the child they had remaining. "


Snippet of news conference with John and Patsy
John Ramsey- "JonBenet and I had a very close relationship um.. I will miss her dearly for the rest of my life."
Patsy Ramsey- "I loved that child with my whole of my heart and soul."


Disclaimer at end of show reads"
"The killing of JonBenet Ramsey is a crime that, to this day, remains unsolved. The opinions and conclusions
of the investigators who appear on this program about how it may have occurred represent just some of a number of
possible scenarios. John Ramsey and Burke Ramsey have denied any involvement in the crime, including in recent
televised interviews. We encourage viewers to reach their own conclusions."

(The End)

 

[UKGuy]

The CBS show is interesting. For veterans of the case the sequence of events might be crucial. So if it goes like this on the 911 call and I'm pretty certain otg was well looking for tissues when they did the audio analysis, e.g. PR, JR, BR? Have I got that wrong?

Meaning BR is saying what did you find? Like I've said before how would any 9-year know there was anything to be found?

.

 

[ukrberserker23]

If you believe this then why do you continue to post on the murder. BR will never be charged. He seems to be doing well. Patsy is dead and JR apparently has no ties....no physical evidence, etc. So what is the point?

Same point as you. I want to solve this crime, and want justice for JBR. Unlike some other posters here, I am a father. I also have a degree in Criminal Justice, and if I had a bunch of money, I would have my own private investigation firm. So I choose to exercise my mind by trying to do good for others.

 

[Tricia]

Former Governor Bill Owens weighs in on the CBS docuseries. Former Governor is impressed, to say the least:

For a number of reasons having to do with my then-responsibilities as Governor of Colorado I closely followed and was even to some extent involved in the aftermath of the tragic JonBenet Ramsey murder case. I have over the years talked to many of those who were part of the investigation and, based on those discussions, have my own strong views concerning who killed JonBenet. With that as background, I commend CBS for its excellent research, investigation and reporting in "The Case of: JonBenet Ramsey." To quote CBS...."You can eliminate the 'outside intruder hypothesis'" as to who killed JonBenet......"What we have here is a staged crime scene"

*snip*

https://www.facebook.com/bill.owens.94?hc_ref=NEWSFEED&fref=nf

 

[chlban]

Hang on, how do you know John didn't do it?

I don't. I just think he is the least likely of the three. It doesn't change my basic statement. If Burke did not do it, then blame daddy for not speaking up now and telling the truth.

 

[Tortoise]

The CBS show is interesting. For veterans of the case the sequence of events might be crucial. So if it goes like this on the 911 call and I'm pretty certain otg was well looking for tissues when they did the audio analysis, e.g. PR, JR, BR? Have I got that wrong?

Meaning BR is saying what did you find? Like I've said before how would any 9-year know there was anything to be found?

.

I think if any child heard their parents calling the police they might ask 'what did you find?' It can be a way of asking 'what's going on?'

Particularly if they had just pretended to Burke that they couldn't find JonBenet. If he wasn't involved they might have done that, in case he was ever asked if they had looked into his room.

 

[Tortoise]

Very well done PositiveLight. That was a lot of hard work you put in and it will be a very useful reference. Thank you!

 

[Bayareamom]

They have indicated that because the pineapple fragments were found inside the digestive tract, the pineapple was therefore eaten AFTER the dinner at the White's. They have also determined that the pineapple was not eaten at the White's, because no pineapple was served at the dinner.

 

[PositiveLight]

Very well done PositiveLight. That was a lot of hard work you put in and it will be a very useful reference. Thank you!

You're very welcome! :tyou:

 

[Tortoise]

I don't. I just think he is the least likely of the three. It doesn't change my basic statement. If Burke did not do it, then blame daddy for not speaking up now and telling the truth.

Thanks. Why do you think he is the least likely of the three?

 

[TeaTime]

Typical John, expensive alarm system is too loud, so he just stops using it. Did he call the guy and see if the volume could be lowered?

Just because cops didn't question it, doesn't make it so.

Typical parents who can't tell their kids to not touch the alarm.

 

[Heymom]

The CBS special was biased also. I'm not saying that they didn't have valid points but every single person on the CBS special had staked a claim for years. Obviously, they weren't objective. As with this case, it's hard to find anyone objective.

So everyone is biased and has a stake except the anyone-but-the-Ramsey crowd? OK...

 

[Tadpole12]

PL
Yes thank you so much for all that hard work
and hope you're feeling better

Going to have to set aside some more time
to review .....

 

[Heymom]

They have indicated that because the pineapple fragments were found inside the digestive tract, the pineapple was therefore eaten AFTER the dinner at the White's. They have also determined that the pineapple was not eaten at the White's, because no pineapple was served at the dinner.

So I am not sure if I have ever considered this point, but if JonBenet ate at the Whites, and her lower intestine did not contain fecal matter in the autopsy, does that perhaps mean she also defecated when she died? I mean, if JR and PR say she did not wake up when they brought her home, then she didn't sit on the toilet to poop then. That would help explain the need to clean her up and change her underwear before she was left to be found by the police.

 

[keyleigh]

I think it is reasonable to assume that Burke is safest in his room. Police, family, friends, etc were all downstairs. Maybe he would have been safer at the police station? I don't know but seems to me Burke was in one of the most safest places.

And yet his parents quickly had him removed from that "safe place". Why send him to the White's house?

 

[PositiveLight]

PL
Yes thank you so much for all that hard work
and hope you're feeling better

Going to have to set aside some more time
to review .....

:tyou:

 

[TTF14]

And yet his parents quickly had him removed from that "safe place". Why send him to the White's house?

Well, to be honest, if one of my children was found dead in my home, I'd send my other one to a neighbor's house, too, while all of the commotion was going on. I wouldn't want them to have to witness their sibling being transported out of the home in a body bag. Although, I guess maybe I wouldn't want my child out of my sight if I knew there was a crazed kidnapper who hated my husband in the vicinity......