The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 3

[Userid]

I think the chair that JR referred to was just another attempt at deflecting from the family. If the chair had to be moved to get in, it must have been placed from the other side of door... indicating it had to have been placed from someone exiting through the basement. Fleet was down there prior to JR and was easily able to enter without moving furniture to gain access. I just don't think BR placed JBR in the wine cellar. I honestly don't think he cared that he may have hurt JBR nevermind killed her. It's likely from the sounds of it BR never had consequences to any of his actions in the past, I just don't think he felt like he might be in trouble so he'd better hide her. Now maybe the wine cellar door was left open from the previous night when the Ramsey's retrieved all the hidden gifts to place under the tree.

If FW was down there before anyone else, isn't is probable that he moved the chair in front of the door while looking for JBR? Perhaps it was somewhere else in the basement and he had to move it (from the middle of a corridor, etc.) to access another area in the basement, and he just so happened to move it there?

 

[Charliegirl610]

If FW was down there before anyone else, isn't is probable that he moved the chair in front of the door while looking for JBR? Perhaps it was somewhere else in the basement and he had to move it (from the middle of a corridor, etc.) to access another area in the basement, and he just so happened to move it there?

I wish I could remember where I read it, (too many books and forums) but I believe this was clarified with FW that no furniture was moved when he initially searched the basement. I don't even think JR knew that FW was down there. When he is asked during the interview if he knew FW was down there he seems surprised to find this out. Could be BS from JR, the fact is that he had 4 months to talk to his pals and partner in crime/wife to get his story straight before having to speak to the police.

 

[Userid]

^ Thanks CG, yeah I feel like FW holds the key to this entire case. How he supposedly opened the door and saw nothing -- I realize he didn't turn the light on, but still, he would have noticed the white bundle there. Has he ever clarified if he saw the white bundle that would end up being JBR? To my memory, he says that nothing was there at all. I could understand if it was there and he just didn't know what it was when he saw it, but if he says it wasn't there at all, that opens up a whole other can of worms.

 

[Charliegirl610]

^ Thanks CG, yeah I feel like FW holds the key to this entire case. How he supposedly opened the door and saw nothing -- I realize he didn't turn the light on, but still, he would have noticed the white bundle there. Has he ever clarified if he saw the white bundle that would end up being JBR? To my memory, he says that nothing was there at all. I could understand if it was there and he just didn't know what it was when he saw it, but if he says it wasn't there at all, that opens up a whole other can of worms.

FW stated that he only stood in the threshold of the WC. The door opens outward to the right. Logically if the door handle is on the left the light switch usually is on that side as well. He reached his hand in and felt on the left hand side for a light switch but was unable to find it. He said it was pitch black, he could see nothing so he closed the WC door and latched it. I think it was the podcast of Jim Clemente from the CBS docuseries that I listened to that said the light switch is on the inside to the right it was up higher than typical placement would be. The Detectives spent a night in the house and experimented with this. It was written that the WC is absolutely black while standing at the threshold where FW stated he was. The CBS docuseries also experimented with this and were unable to see a white blanket in the WC without turning on the light. FW stated that JR opened the door and screamed "My baby!" before turning the light on in the WC........

 

[Heymom]

^ Thanks CG, yeah I feel like FW holds the key to this entire case. How he supposedly opened the door and saw nothing -- I realize he didn't turn the light on, but still, he would have noticed the white bundle there. Has he ever clarified if he saw the white bundle that would end up being JBR? To my memory, he says that nothing was there at all. I could understand if it was there and he just didn't know what it was when he saw it, but if he says it wasn't there at all, that opens up a whole other can of worms.

All I have ever read is that the room is pitch black without the light on, and the CBS show even depicted that with their house reconstruction. Without any lights on you couldn't see anything in that room, and FW didn't know where the light switch was. Maybe if a person stood there long enough for his eyes to adjust to the blackness, the blanket would stand out, I don't know. Some people have speculated over the years that JonBenet's body wasn't there when FW looked, but that JR brought it there later when he disappeared. It would seem unlikely that 2 separate hiding places for the body were missed by police, but who knows....

FW had not seen the body in the first place, and went back down to the room after JR brought JonBenet upstairs, maybe to figure out how he had missed her? Yes, I believe he and Patricia do hold a lot of information, and they did testify in front of the GJ, so we know they told their stories and those stories are recorded somewhere. What all of us wouldn't give to have access....

 

[Userid]

Just to clarify, FW had the same exact amount of light that JR had, correct? Meaning, the same exact amount as far as the boiler room light is concerned? Or did he not know where that light was also?

Sorry for all the questions -- thank you for your patience, I do appreciate it.

 

[Heymom]

FW stated that he only stood in the threshold of the WC. The door opens outward to the right. Logically if the door handle is on the left the light switch usually is on that side as well. He reached his hand in and felt on the left hand side for a light switch but was unable to find it. He said it was pitch black, he could see nothing so he closed the WC door and latched it. I think it was the podcast of Jim Clemente from the CBS docuseries that I listened to that said the light switch is on the inside to the right it was up higher than typical placement would be. The Detectives spent a night in the house and experimented with this. It was written that the WC is absolutely black while standing at the threshold where FW stated he was. The CBS docuseries also experimented with this and were unable to see a white blanket in the WC without turning on the light. FW stated that JR opened the door and screamed "My baby!" before turning the light on in the WC........

We posted almost the same thing at almost the same time....That statement from FW must have meant he was wondering how JR knew she was there when he himself couldn't see anything without the light...

 

[Userid]

All I have ever read is that the room is pitch black without the light on, and the CBS show even depicted that with their house reconstruction. Without any lights on you couldn't see anything in that room, and FW didn't know where the light switch was. Maybe if a person stood there long enough for his eyes to adjust to the blackness, the blanket would stand out, I don't know. Some people have speculated over the years that JonBenet's body wasn't there when FW looked, but that JR brought it there later when he disappeared. It would seem unlikely that 2 separate hiding places for the body were missed by police, but who knows....

FW had not seen the body in the first place, and went back down to the room after JR brought JonBenet upstairs, maybe to figure out how he had missed her? Yes, I believe he and Patricia do hold a lot of information, and they did testify in front of the GJ, so we know they told their stories and those stories are recorded somewhere. What all of us wouldn't give to have access....

Yes, I've heard the speculation and to me, it actually would make sense if JR knew that wine cellar was already searched. If he didn't know that though, then it wouldn't make sense. I have always though: if you're JR, and you want to hide a body, why wouldn't he have picked the crawl space on the other side of the basement? That would seem like a much more secluded and hidden place than even the wine cellar.

 

[Heymom]

Just to clarify, FW had the same exact amount of light that JR had, correct? Meaning, the same exact amount as far as the boiler room light is concerned? Or did he not know where that light was also?

Sorry for all the questions -- thank you for your patience, I do appreciate it.

No, FW did not know where the light switch was. And JR, according to FW, yelled "my baby" before he had turned on the light. Now, was there ambient light from the rest of the basement? Probably at least some. But the room turns to the left, so none of that light would have reached to where the body lay.

 

[Charliegirl610]

No, FW did not know where the light switch was. And JR, according to FW, yelled "my baby" before he had turned on the light. Now, was there ambient light from the rest of the basement? Probably at least some. But the room turns to the left, so none of that light would have reached to where the body lay.

This is correct, what I recall reading. I know that the detectives and CBS both brought in experts to create the same amount of light that would have been present when JR opened the WC door at 1:05PM on 12/26/96. None of them involved in the experiment were able to see the white blanket that was staged to replicate JBR's body. Heymom is spot on when she mentions the WC wall jutted out on the left hand side that the door was on. JBR was in the WC to the left. So that jutted wall would have prevented the hall ceiling light from shining in and illuminating where JBR was placed. JR himself can't explain how it is that he was able to "see" her and FW was not. I don't believe that JR went down and moved JBR's body to the WC after FW had searched. I know that Arndt was unable to place him for quite some time, but I do not think she was originally staged somewhere and JR moved her to the WC with all those people in the house. It is unfortunate that French the first responding officer did not open that door that morning when he searched the basement or that FW was unable to see the white blanket when he peeked in there shortly after arriving. It allowed JR and PR to further muddle up the mess by moving her and contaminating the scene. moo

 

[Userid]

I understand there was no light in the wine cellar -- I was talking about the ambient light, yes. Did FW have the same amount of ambient light (such as, from the boiler room immediately next door, etc) as JR? I'm assuming he did.

 

[kanzz]

I think the chair that JR referred to was just another attempt at deflecting from the family. If the chair had to be moved to get in, it must have been placed from the other side of door... indicating it had to have been placed from someone exiting through the basement. Fleet was down there prior to JR and was easily able to enter without moving furniture to gain access. I just don't think BR placed JBR in the wine cellar. I honestly don't think he cared that he may have hurt JBR nevermind killed her. It's likely from the sounds of it BR never had consequences to any of his actions in the past, I just don't think he felt like he might be in trouble so he'd better hide her. Now maybe the wine cellar door was left open from the previous night when the Ramsey's retrieved all the hidden gifts to place under the tree.

Agreed. I never put much stock in that chair. Just another red herring.. or part of the Ram's Go Fish game.

To back up what I said earlier about JR not being in the basement often and not spending much time when he did go there, I found this bit from when he was questioned:

ST: Is there any reason that window went unrepaired?
JR: No. I mean it’s, Patsy usually took care of those things, and I just rarely went to the basement, so it just, I guess, got overlooked. Although she did think that she asked the cleaning lady’s husband to fix it over Thanksgiving when they were doing some repair work there, but I don’t know if that’s ever been confirmed whether he fixed it or not.

Doesn't seem to me that he would have known a thing about that chair or where it belonged. Also agree that BR never was held responsible or accountable for his actions or behavior. I doubt that JB was either, it's just that she might not have misbehaved as much as he did. I think BR left JB right where she was when he finished - outside the WR door. Just my thoughts.

 

[The Dark Shadow]

The policy of this form is that there was no intruder and so there is no need to discuss that. All of the points have been addressed again and again so welcome and start reading!

Thanks Heymom, but if you read my post again, you'll see I'm definitely not trying to suggest IDI. If these questions are ever answered, it will likely strengthen the RDI theory!

As I said, I haven't read every post, but I have read most of them and have formulated these questions based on what I've read so far. Trust me, I am a very impartial thinker (I'm a criminologist, so it comes with the territory), so if I'm leaning towards RDI, you can be sure there's something to that ;-)


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[Heymom]

Imagine Fleet & Priscilla's confusion and dismay after what happened at the Ramsey house that day...Very confusing behavior from their good friends...Not understanding how JR could have seen JBR's body when he didn't...FW must have been very confused...Who knows what Burke said or did that day at the White home...

And then to find out that both John and Patsy had cast suspicion on THEM, even telling LE that they, the Whites, were ENVIOUS of their wealth....That must have hurt terribly.

 

[Heymom]

Thanks Heymom, but if you read my post again, you'll see I'm definitely not trying to suggest IDI. If these questions are ever answered, it will likely strengthen the RDI theory!

As I said, I haven't read every post, but I have read most of them and have formulated these questions based on what I've read so far. Trust me, I am a very impartial thinker (I'm a criminologist, so it comes with the territory), so if I'm leaning towards RDI, you can be sure there's something to that ;-)


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If you haven't yet read Chief Kolar's book "Foreign Faction" I highly recommend it. It will change the way you see this case.

 

[kanzz]

I'm pretty much on the fence (because there's just not enough evidence either way... that WE know of), but leaning towards RDI. I haven't read the entire thread, but I do try to keep up, so sorry if these have already been addressed, but there are a few things that I do think are odd though and I'd love your opinions and thoughts on them...

1. The amount requested in the ransom note. Most people ask "why not millions?" and I feel that the smaller amount may point towards an intruder (or somebody hoping to sound like an intruder). Why? Because an intruder may not have know the Ramseys were filthy rich! Then again, you could argue they must have known the Ramseys, because they addressed them personally in the letter and knew their way around the home, but a) the names may have been seen on mail or utility bills laying around or similar and I'm sure most of us leave unopened letters laying around near the phone or on the fridge etc. b) It's just a house - it's not too difficult to work out the basement is down and - from there - it's probably not too difficult to find a small, hidden room, of you were looking for a hidey hole. Anyway, I just feel the amount casts doubt on the RDI theory, rather than strengthens it.

2. The significance of the pineapple. I do think it's weird that this is an unanswered question and do think the Ramseys are probably being untruthful about it, but I don't agree with some posters who posit that BR hit JBR for stealing his pineapple. The traces were found in her small intestine, right? Well then that would mean the pineapple would have been eaten a number of hours before the fatal blow - otherwise it would have been in her stomach. Any medical professionals here to weigh in?

3. I don't understand why JBR was left in the house if RDI. Surely it doesn't take a genius to figure out that a fake kidnapping would look more realistic if the kidnapping victim isn't found in the home! Ok, so they may have thought it was too risky to move her out of the home (even though they likely had a ton of time to do it). In that case, why didn't they stage a revenge killing or something instead? Was there some sort of time limit that meant they had to call the police at the time they did? They still had hours before they were due to fly out to their holiday home, didn't they?

4. The fact the ransom note was written in the house is definitely bizarre, but why do some people assume the ransom note was written after JBR was killed? If you assume the note was written before she was, it does point more strongly towards IDI because it can then be assumed it was an actual kidnapping gone wrong. Think of it like this... An intruder comes in at some stage during the night - perhaps even as early as before the Ramseys came home from dinner (and perhaps with one of the many spare keys the Ramseys were handing out like candy). They decide that if they use stationery at the Ramsey's home, they will be leaving less evidence (which is actually very clever!), so they sit down and write their long-winded (less clever) note, fully intending to kidnap JBR. When crunch time comes though, something goes wrong and JBR is unintentionally killed. The intruder flees, leaving both the ransom note and JBR and not following up because of their accident.

These questions get in the way of me leaning completely towards the RDI theory. I have a few more of the same types of questions, but I'll have to leave them for another time as it's my bed time .

PS. Sorry to be a little OT in regards to the current discussion. I started writing this out a couple of days ago, but kept getting sidetracked, lol.

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1. It's probably a better question to ask - Why specifically $118K? Why not a round number? I think that specific number points directly to PR and not an IDI. IDI has been ruled out on this forum.

2. The partially digested pineapple was found in the proximal small intestine (the end nearest to the stomach). This would indicate it was probably ingested 30 mins to 2 hrs prior to her death (by most accounts of digestive info), not hours. The blow to the head being about the pineapple is just one theory.

3. Leaving the corpse in the house was probably out of fear of getting noticed by the neighbors. And also might have something to do with the undoing. If you are open to the BDI theory, then the revenge killing theory goes out the window as she is already dead. As for the time limit for calling the police - Yes. They were supposed to be at the airport at 7, so there was a deadline.

4. Regarding the RN - all signs point to PR. The IDI theory is moot. Therefore, one can only conclude it was written after the death of JBR as a ruse and a cover-up.

 

[Heymom]

I'm pretty much on the fence (because there's just not enough evidence either way... that WE know of), but leaning towards RDI. I haven't read the entire thread, but I do try to keep up, so sorry if these have already been addressed, but there are a few things that I do think are odd though and I'd love your opinions and thoughts on them...

1. The amount requested in the ransom note. Most people ask "why not millions?" and I feel that the smaller amount may point towards an intruder (or somebody hoping to sound like an intruder). Why? Because an intruder may not have know the Ramseys were filthy rich! Then again, you could argue they must have known the Ramseys, because they addressed them personally in the letter and knew their way around the home, but a) the names may have been seen on mail or utility bills laying around or similar and I'm sure most of us leave unopened letters laying around near the phone or on the fridge etc. b) It's just a house - it's not too difficult to work out the basement is down and - from there - it's probably not too difficult to find a small, hidden room, of you were looking for a hidey hole. Anyway, I just feel the amount casts doubt on the RDI theory, rather than strengthens it.

2. The significance of the pineapple. I do think it's weird that this is an unanswered question and do think the Ramseys are probably being untruthful about it, but I don't agree with some posters who posit that BR hit JBR for stealing his pineapple. The traces were found in her small intestine, right? Well then that would mean the pineapple would have been eaten a number of hours before the fatal blow - otherwise it would have been in her stomach. Any medical professionals here to weigh in?

3. I don't understand why JBR was left in the house if RDI. Surely it doesn't take a genius to figure out that a fake kidnapping would look more realistic if the kidnapping victim isn't found in the home! Ok, so they may have thought it was too risky to move her out of the home (even though they likely had a ton of time to do it). In that case, why didn't they stage a revenge killing or something instead? Was there some sort of time limit that meant they had to call the police at the time they did? They still had hours before they were due to fly out to their holiday home, didn't they?

4. The fact the ransom note was written in the house is definitely bizarre, but why do some people assume the ransom note was written after JBR was killed? If you assume the note was written before she was, it does point more strongly towards IDI because it can then be assumed it was an actual kidnapping gone wrong. Think of it like this... An intruder comes in at some stage during the night - perhaps even as early as before the Ramseys came home from dinner (and perhaps with one of the many spare keys the Ramseys were handing out like candy). They decide that if they use stationery at the Ramsey's home, they will be leaving less evidence (which is actually very clever!), so they sit down and write their long-winded (less clever) note, fully intending to kidnap JBR. When crunch time comes though, something goes wrong and JBR is unintentionally killed. The intruder flees, leaving both the ransom note and JBR and not following up because of their accident.

These questions get in the way of me leaning completely towards the RDI theory. I have a few more of the same types of questions, but I'll have to leave them for another time as it's my bed time .

PS. Sorry to be a little OT in regards to the current discussion. I started writing this out a couple of days ago, but kept getting sidetracked, lol.

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These questions HAVE been answered so that is why I reminded you that there was no intruder. The ransom letter was written that way so that Patsy could throw suspicion onto her housekeeper FIRST and then John could cast suspicion on others including employees. Everything else has been gone over ad infinitum.

 

[Scandigirl]

Just to say thanks for everyone's helpful responses about the chair. The general consensus seems to be that the chair and suitcase were part of JR's intruder red herrings, and that Burke could access the WC himself, but was unlikely to have left the body there. At least I finally get the whole chair saga at last!

 

[The Dark Shadow]

Thanks so much HarmonyE . I've replied below...

1) You're only looking at one aspect of the bizarre ransom note - the dollar amount. The whole thing is bizarre. But the main things the ransom note tells us are: The killer knew his way around that maze of the house. The killer knew just where to find Patsy's note pad and pen - and kindly returned them to their normal places. The killer was comfortable enough to hang around the house for a very long period of time while drafting and writing a fake kidnapping note. The killer tried very hard to sell a murder as a kidnapping, which of course it wasn't. The killer was almost certainly a well-educated English speaker. The list of suspects narrows. And of course, why would the killer not only write such a note but also leave the body in the most obscure, hard-to-find corner of the house - and then lock the door to that room from the outside?

Agree - there is nothing else in that ransom note that I question. It is undoubtedly unique and very clearly written by a well-educated English speaker with an eloquent grasp of the language. The dollar amount is the only aspect that bugs me.

Do you know if there was any other hypotheses as to why the amount was so bizarre? I have not seen it thoroughly discussed outside of WS, so would love to see an 'official' explanation. I know LE dropped the ball in a big way initially, but surely they investigated whether particular sums of money were readily available to the Ramseys etc?

2) The blow to the head isn't what killed her. Swelling in the brain indicates there was a gap in time between the head blow and the fatal strangulation. Time for pineapple to begin to digest. And recall that her dinner was digested and both parents insisted she had been put straight to bed after their return from the party. I'm not sure if she has hit in the head over a fight over pineapple, but there seems little doubt that she left her bed that night and got a small amount of that pineapple. Her prints aren't on the bowl or the glass of tea (both of which Patsy denied knowing anything about). But Burke's are. Burke has also recently admitted to being downstairs after his parents had gone to bed, or at least had retired to the third floor. The pineapple in her system indicates she was downstairs as well after that point.

Thank you for this answer - that actually clears it up quite a bit. I was under the impression the strangulation occurred just after the blow to JBRs head (as in, within an hour). Poor little JB - it's so heartbreaking to know she could possibly have been saved if she had received medical attention immediately!

3) They could have taken the body out of house - and done what with it? Disposing a body is fraught with all kind of dangers and the fact that she never left the house gave possible innocent reasons for Ramsey DNA and fingerprints to be at the scene. I'm sure they considered it, but the fake kidnapping eliminated the possibility of witnesses, kept the crime scene contained, and was probably easier all around. And it worked!

It did work, good point! I still think this is such a weird aspect; however, I guess there is some indication that the Ramseys intended to move JBR later. Panicked thinking could also account for it, I guess.

The Ramseys (parents) were both supposedly quite intelligent, right? So this is why I question it; however, I guess intelligence =/= knowledge of investigative techniques, so they may have assumed the police would leave the home looking for evidence elsewhere, which would leave the Rs free to move JBR later.

4) People assume the letter was written after she was killed because it was a sales job, not a ransom note. The killer was clearly trying to sell the idea of a kidnapping. Never in the history kidnappings had the FBI ever seen anything as long, as detailed, or as rambling. And as mentioned above, any intruder would have had to have been incredibly comfortable in the house. If the letter was written before the "planned kidnapping" but after the break in, he'd also have to be comfortable enough to decide he would wait until after he got into the house to find pen and paper and then take the time to compose and write a very long letter, with the possibility of being discovered becoming more likely with each passing minute.

Yes, I think it makes the most sense that the note was written by somebody in the family to cover up a crime; however, it irks me that they were so damn ignorant of LE procedure!

If you were to entertain non-RDI theories though, you'd have to assume one of two things. Either the intruder was not very bright and the whole thing was opportunistic with no pre-planning, or it was somebody who did know the Ramseys, the house layout etc and was perhaps familiar with the acoustics of the house, the family's sleeping patterns etc and knew they would not be interrupted.

If I had to choose one, it would be the former (opportunistic) with the note being written prior to the attack. So if you base an angle on this, then you almost have to assume the note was written prior to waking JBR. Of course, all of these IDI angles are less convincing than the RDI theories! Just exploring all angles.


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[The Dark Shadow]

Didn't Dr. Spitz state that the blow to JB's head would of incurred brain death? So if that was the case without life support she would have died soon after because i don't think a person usually recovers from that condition.
brain death
NOUN

irreversible brain damage causing the end of independent respiration, regarded as indicative of death.

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Yes, I'd like to see some concrete evidence on this and how it affects digestion etc.


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