The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 3

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Interesting but, possible footprint in wc? Possible train track marks? Torn presents in wc? His tDNA on nightie? I think she was hurt in basement but we can agree to disagree :)

Ambitioned,
You have to differentiate evidence that links a person to a location from that to another person, and all the forensic evidence linking BR with the basement is circumstantial.

Kolar says BR was in the basement on Christmas Day afternoon and that it was then BR opened what became the partially opened gifts.

BR's footprint might have arrived in the wine-cellar during the above incident.

There were train tracks available in BR's bedroom.

The touch-dna is on the pink barbie nightgown because he redresed JonBenet in it upstairs

BR and JonBenet were already comfortable meeting in either of their respective bedrooms, and sanctioned by Patsy, likely for peace and quiet. JonBenet did not like the basement, and BR had no need for it, since there were not only their bedrooms but a spare one too.

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As Burke told us himself, he spent a lot of time in that basement, so while I'm not sure what was actually tested, his fingerprints and DNA would be expected down there. For instance, it sounds like he had Hi-Tek boots (with a compass on them) so that could have been his footprint in the windowless room, but arguably he may have been down there for an innocent reason in the days or weeks before the murder.

We've heard a lot about the trace DNA on the clothing, but have the ligature, the tape, the cord, and the remnants of the paintbrush been tested? If not, why not? It would seem they'd be pretty important as they were clearly handled by whoever strangled her and staged the kidnapping.

HarmonyE,
As far as I know there is no forensic evidence linking BR to JonBenet in the wine-cellar. The touch-dna on the gown is a separate issue.

I would not be certain regarding BDI without the GJ True Bills, as much of the evidence relating to BR is circumstantial.

I think what happened is that BR became involved in an unhealthy relationship with his sister, fostered largely via parental neglect, i.e father regularly absent from his life, and Patsy mainly focused on JonBenet. Add in BR's peer group and their sleepovers, etc along with BR's ongoing behavioral issues, then I think you have a prescription for a dysfunctional relationship.

We've heard a lot about the trace DNA on the clothing, but have the ligature, the tape, the cord, and the remnants of the paintbrush been tested? If not, why not? It would seem they'd be pretty important as they were clearly handled by whoever strangled her and staged the kidnapping.
We have not been told what has been tested or what all the results have been. BR's dna might be on several or none of the items. Similarly for the parents, but we have only been told about foreign dna.

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Lee said, during the CBS team’s investigation, that the DNA found at the scene and even on the girl’s body was not conclusive in any way. But it especially ruled out the possibility of an intruder entering the house and sexually assaulting the girl.
“That DNA has no forensic value,” Lee said. “There’s no sexual assault here.”

https://www.forensicmag.com/article/2016/09/case-jonbenet-ramsey-pins-murder-older-brother

Karinna,
How would Lee know, he is on record saying Rice cooked meaning the crime-scene was already contaminated. What Lee says is a non sequitur, i.e. the conclusion need not follow from the premise.

So rubbish dna does not mean there was no sexual assault only that Lee does not think that particular dna is linked to any sexual assault.

In other words Lee is playing with words as were the CBS team, it was likely too contentious a subject. LW had possibly communicated litigation was being considered, so they all agreed to skip over it?

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Karinna,
How would Lee know, he is on record saying Rice cooked meaning the crime-scene was already contaminated. What Lee says is a non sequitur, i.e. the conclusion need not follow from the premise.

So rubbish dna does not mean there was no sexual assault only that Lee does not think that particular dna is linked to any sexual assault.

In other words Lee is playing with words as were the CBS team, it was likely too contentious a subject. LW had possibly communicated litigation was being considered, so they all agreed to skip over it?

.

Well they were the supposed experts on the CBS show, and who really knows? We sure don't because all we get is what MSM release to the general public. And i can see why the DA thought they didn't have enough to prosecute this case. Too many variables and people just can't seem to agree on what is what, and even make up their own facts and run with them, which would of caused a heck of a lot of reasonable doubt, IMO.
 
Well they were the supposed experts on the CBS show, and who really knows? We sure don't because all we get is what MSM release to the general public. And i can see why the DA thought they didn't have enough to prosecute this case. Too many variables and people just can't seem to agree on what is what, and even make up their own facts and run with them, which would of caused a heck of a lot of reasonable doubt, IMO.

Karinna,
BBM: Sure but did you not notice when it came to the sexual assault, they never discussed it in tandem with the Autopsy Report. The AR cites the splinter, likely from the paintbrush, being inside JonBenet. How did that happen if there is no sexual assault here, did it just like jump in?

Then there is Meyer's Digital Penetration and Sexual Contact remarks, along with his opinion that JonBenet was wiped down to remove bloodstains.

Is Coroner Meyer deluded, or did the CBS team just not want to go there?

.
 
Karinna,
BBM: Sure but did you not notice when it came to the sexual assault, they never discussed it in tandem with the Autopsy Report. The AR cites the splinter, likely from the paintbrush, being inside JonBenet. How did that happen if there is no sexual assault here, did it just like jump in?

Then there is Meyer's Digital Penetration and Sexual Contact remarks, along with his opinion that JonBenet was wiped down to remove bloodstains.

Is Coroner Meyer deluded, or did the CBS team just not want to go there?

.

Yeah they didn't really discuss that much. But didn't Dr. Spitz say that tiny splinter of paintbrush was transferred to where it was found and not inserted?
I still find it very unclear whether JB was sexually abused because some have said she was and other opinion said she wasn't? And that was in reference to prior abuse before she died. I find it very confusing when so called experts differ in their opinions in that regard because it can't be both. She either was or she wasn't?
 
Yeah they didn't really discuss that much. But didn't Dr. Spitz say that tiny splinter of paintbrush was transferred to where it was found and not inserted?

Yeah that confused me too. Because as a vagina owner, I know there's no way it would travel/transfer up from the lobby. I really respect Dr. Spitz but his thinking here gives me pause
 
Yeah that confused me too. Because as a vagina owner, I know there's no way it would travel/transfer up from the lobby. I really respect Dr. Spitz but his thinking here gives me pause

Yeah i had to wonder about that one too. Unless it was transferred there if mom used a wash cloth to clean JB down there and it had a fragment of paintbrush on it?
 
Maybe a hand towel or wash cloth was used initially to wipe fingerprints off the broken paintbrush piece used for the garotte and then used to wash JB with it after that? Am just trying to make sense out of the senseless in this case i guess, as crazy as it all is. But i guess it made sense to the perp/s. at the time of their planning.
 
I'm pretty much on the fence (because there's just not enough evidence either way... that WE know of), but leaning towards RDI. I haven't read the entire thread, but I do try to keep up, so sorry if these have already been addressed, but there are a few things that I do think are odd though and I'd love your opinions and thoughts on them...

1. The amount requested in the ransom note. Most people ask "why not millions?" and I feel that the smaller amount may point towards an intruder (or somebody hoping to sound like an intruder). Why? Because an intruder may not have know the Ramseys were filthy rich! Then again, you could argue they must have known the Ramseys, because they addressed them personally in the letter and knew their way around the home, but a) the names may have been seen on mail or utility bills laying around or similar and I'm sure most of us leave unopened letters laying around near the phone or on the fridge etc. b) It's just a house - it's not too difficult to work out the basement is down and - from there - it's probably not too difficult to find a small, hidden room, of you were looking for a hidey hole. Anyway, I just feel the amount casts doubt on the RDI theory, rather than strengthens it.

2. The significance of the pineapple. I do think it's weird that this is an unanswered question and do think the Ramseys are probably being untruthful about it, but I don't agree with some posters who posit that BR hit JBR for stealing his pineapple. The traces were found in her small intestine, right? Well then that would mean the pineapple would have been eaten a number of hours before the fatal blow - otherwise it would have been in her stomach. Any medical professionals here to weigh in?

3. I don't understand why JBR was left in the house if RDI. Surely it doesn't take a genius to figure out that a fake kidnapping would look more realistic if the kidnapping victim isn't found in the home! Ok, so they may have thought it was too risky to move her out of the home (even though they likely had a ton of time to do it). In that case, why didn't they stage a revenge killing or something instead? Was there some sort of time limit that meant they had to call the police at the time they did? They still had hours before they were due to fly out to their holiday home, didn't they?

4. The fact the ransom note was written in the house is definitely bizarre, but why do some people assume the ransom note was written after JBR was killed? If you assume the note was written before she was, it does point more strongly towards IDI because it can then be assumed it was an actual kidnapping gone wrong. Think of it like this... An intruder comes in at some stage during the night - perhaps even as early as before the Ramseys came home from dinner (and perhaps with one of the many spare keys the Ramseys were handing out like candy). They decide that if they use stationery at the Ramsey's home, they will be leaving less evidence (which is actually very clever!), so they sit down and write their long-winded (less clever) note, fully intending to kidnap JBR. When crunch time comes though, something goes wrong and JBR is unintentionally killed. The intruder flees, leaving both the ransom note and JBR and not following up because of their accident.

These questions get in the way of me leaning completely towards the RDI theory. I have a few more of the same types of questions, but I'll have to leave them for another time as it's my bed time :-).

PS. Sorry to be a little OT in regards to the current discussion. I started writing this out a couple of days ago, but kept getting sidetracked, lol.

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After the CBS special what was the evidence of JBR having been sexually assaulted on the night in question? Dr Lee & Dr. Spitz agreed there was no sexual assault on that night, but people here keep insisting there was sexual assault with a paintbrush handle? I really think we need to get it right or there will be confusion on that, and the case is already crazy enough as it is, IMO.
(quote)
The investigators also maintain that JonBenet was not sexually assaulted, and that the DNA found on her underwear may have gotten there during the manufacturing and packaging process.

I think what they mean is that this was not a SEX CRIME per se, as it was presented to the public as a pedophile who had sex on his mind when he broke into the house and ended up killing JonBenet perhaps after a sex game. The insertion of the paint brush was not related to sexual stimulation, IOW. It was an attack on JonBenet that just happened to include insertion of an instrument but not sex-based, if I can be clear.
 
Yeah i had to wonder about that one too. Unless it was transferred there if mom used a wash cloth to clean JB down there and it had a fragment of paintbrush on it?

No, but you don't wash a vagina with a cloth. That statement by Dr. Sptiz was completely bogus. The splinter was INSIDE her vagina, not on her labia.
 
I'm pretty much on the fence (because there's just not enough evidence either way... that WE know of), but leaning towards RDI. I haven't read the entire thread, but I do try to keep up, so sorry if these have already been addressed, but there are a few things that I do think are odd though and I'd love your opinions and thoughts on them...

1. The amount requested in the ransom note. Most people ask "why not millions?" and I feel that the smaller amount may point towards an intruder (or somebody hoping to sound like an intruder). Why? Because an intruder may not have know the Ramseys were filthy rich! Then again, you could argue they must have known the Ramseys, because they addressed them personally in the letter and knew their way around the home, but a) the names may have been seen on mail or utility bills laying around or similar and I'm sure most of us leave unopened letters laying around near the phone or on the fridge etc. b) It's just a house - it's not too difficult to work out the basement is down and - from there - it's probably not too difficult to find a small, hidden room, of you were looking for a hidey hole. Anyway, I just feel the amount casts doubt on the RDI theory, rather than strengthens it.

2. The significance of the pineapple. I do think it's weird that this is an unanswered question and do think the Ramseys are probably being untruthful about it, but I don't agree with some posters who posit that BR hit JBR for stealing his pineapple. The traces were found in her small intestine, right? Well then that would mean the pineapple would have been eaten a number of hours before the fatal blow - otherwise it would have been in her stomach. Any medical professionals here to weigh in?

3. I don't understand why JBR was left in the house if RDI. Surely it doesn't take a genius to figure out that a fake kidnapping would look more realistic if the kidnapping victim isn't found in the home! Ok, so they may have thought it was too risky to move her out of the home (even though they likely had a ton of time to do it). In that case, why didn't they stage a revenge killing or something instead? Was there some sort of time limit that meant they had to call the police at the time they did? They still had hours before they were due to fly out to their holiday home, didn't they?

4. The fact the ransom note was written in the house is definitely bizarre, but why do some people assume the ransom note was written after JBR was killed? If you assume the note was written before she was, it does point more strongly towards IDI because it can then be assumed it was an actual kidnapping gone wrong. Think of it like this... An intruder comes in at some stage during the night - perhaps even as early as before the Ramseys came home from dinner (and perhaps with one of the many spare keys the Ramseys were handing out like candy). They decide that if they use stationery at the Ramsey's home, they will be leaving less evidence (which is actually very clever!), so they sit down and write their long-winded (less clever) note, fully intending to kidnap JBR. When crunch time comes though, something goes wrong and JBR is unintentionally killed. The intruder flees, leaving both the ransom note and JBR and not following up because of their accident.

These questions get in the way of me leaning completely towards the RDI theory. I have a few more of the same types of questions, but I'll have to leave them for another time as it's my bed time :-).

PS. Sorry to be a little OT in regards to the current discussion. I started writing this out a couple of days ago, but kept getting sidetracked, lol.

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The policy of this form is that there was no intruder and so there is no need to discuss that. All of the points have been addressed again and again so welcome and start reading!
 
I think what they mean is that this was not a SEX CRIME per se, as it was presented to the public as a pedophile who had sex on his mind when he broke into the house and ended up killing JonBenet perhaps after a sex game. The insertion of the paint brush was not related to sexual stimulation, IOW. It was an attack on JonBenet that just happened to include insertion of an instrument but not sex-based, if I can be clear.

Yes, from my understanding that was all supposedly post mortem as part of the staging.
 
No, but you don't wash a vagina with a cloth. That statement by Dr. Sptiz was completely bogus. The splinter was INSIDE her vagina, not on her labia.

Well small dark blue fibers consistent with a cotton towel were recovered from the vaginal area, so how did they get there?
(quote)

Blue Cotton Fibers?

It was originally reported "Small dark blue fibers, consistent with a cotton towel, were recovered from the vaginal area." These allegedly were consistent with John Ramsey's bathrobe.
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682473/Fiber Evidence
 
I'm pretty much on the fence (because there's just not enough evidence either way... that WE know of), but leaning towards RDI. I haven't read the entire thread, but I do try to keep up, so sorry if these have already been addressed, but there are a few things that I do think are odd though and I'd love your opinions and thoughts on them...

1) You're only looking at one aspect of the bizarre ransom note - the dollar amount. The whole thing is bizarre. But the main things the ransom note tells us are: The killer knew his way around that maze of the house. The killer knew just where to find Patsy's note pad and pen - and kindly returned them to their normal places. The killer was comfortable enough to hang around the house for a very long period of time while drafting and writing a fake kidnapping note. The killer tried very hard to sell a murder as a kidnapping, which of course it wasn't. The killer was almost certainly a well-educated English speaker. The list of suspects narrows. And of course, why would the killer not only write such a note but also leave the body in the most obscure, hard-to-find corner of the house - and then lock the door to that room from the outside?

2) The blow to the head isn't what killed her. Swelling in the brain indicates there was a gap in time between the head blow and the fatal strangulation. Time for pineapple to begin to digest. And recall that her dinner was digested and both parents insisted she had been put straight to bed after their return from the party. I'm not sure if she has hit in the head over a fight over pineapple, but there seems little doubt that she left her bed that night and got a small amount of that pineapple. Her prints aren't on the bowl or the glass of tea (both of which Patsy denied knowing anything about). But Burke's are. Burke has also recently admitted to being downstairs after his parents had gone to bed, or at least had retired to the third floor. The pineapple in her system indicates she was downstairs as well after that point.

3) They could have taken the body out of house - and done what with it? Disposing a body is fraught with all kind of dangers and the fact that she never left the house gave possible innocent reasons for Ramsey DNA and fingerprints to be at the scene. I'm sure they considered it, but the fake kidnapping eliminated the possibility of witnesses, kept the crime scene contained, and was probably easier all around. And it worked!

4) People assume the letter was written after she was killed because it was a sales job, not a ransom note. The killer was clearly trying to sell the idea of a kidnapping. Never in the history kidnappings had the FBI ever seen anything as long, as detailed, or as rambling. And as mentioned above, any intruder would have had to have been incredibly comfortable in the house. If the letter was written before the "planned kidnapping" but after the break in, he'd also have to be comfortable enough to decide he would wait until after he got into the house to find pen and paper and then take the time to compose and write a very long letter, with the possibility of being discovered becoming more likely with each passing minute.
 
Didn't Dr. Spitz state that the blow to JB's head would of incurred brain death? So if that was the case without life support she would have died soon after because i don't think a person usually recovers from that condition.
brain death
NOUN

irreversible brain damage causing the end of independent respiration, regarded as indicative of death.

Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · © Oxford University Press
 
Didn't Dr. Spitz state that the blow to JB's head would of incurred brain death? So if that was the case without life support she would have died soon after because i don't think a person usually recovers from that condition.
brain death
NOUN

irreversible brain damage causing the end of independent respiration, regarded as indicative of death.

Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · © Oxford University Press

I don't think Spitz explained how he determined there was brain death before the actual death. Or if there is any way to know how long after the blow the brain death likely occurred. He didn't say it would have been instantaneous.
 
Well small dark blue fibers consistent with a cotton towel were recovered from the vaginal area, so how did they get there?
(quote)

Blue Cotton Fibers?

It was originally reported "Small dark blue fibers, consistent with a cotton towel, were recovered from the vaginal area." These allegedly were consistent with John Ramsey's bathrobe.
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682473/Fiber Evidence

Karinna,
The fibers are consistent with Coroner Meyer's opinion that JonBenet was wiped down. That she was also Digitally Penetrated and underwent Sexual Contact.

So it looks like there was a sexual assault and a head blow Upstairs followed by staging down in the Basement in the manner of inserting a paintbrush or finger that had already touched the broken paintbrush, thereby transferring the splinter, then wiping JonBenet clean and redressing her in the size-12's?

So you can go for no sexual assault, and staged sexual assault, or both. If its just the latter then why do the R's first fake a sexual assault then clean it all up and hide it away beneath a layer of clothing?

If there has just been an accidental death via anger or mishap why all the sexual stuff and ligature asphyxiation, where is the percentage in that, does it not turn an accident into a nightmare?

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There were plenty of items for the kids to climb on to unlock that door. The chair that gets attention is Smit's magical moving chair. It's in front of the train room and then it's not.
Or maybe he used the suitcase? In turn putting a footprint on it?

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