The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18 # 3

[Heymom]

From what I can tell on here, most believe she was cracked on the head in the kitchen. From the power of the blow, she probably went unconscious immediately. That would mean she was struck in the basement where the urine stained carpet was. I'm wondering if she was poked with something in the bedroom. Unless pillow was taken to basement, and returned later.Ramsey's got real dumb lucky.

That is Dr. Spitz's theory, having to do with the pineapple. I have never believed that version of events. I believe everything happened in the basement.

 

[Heymom]

EyesofTheSouth,
What if it was one of the parents that whacked JonBenet, as part of the intended staging, and when it appeared to fail asphyxiated her?

.

What if it was an alien who beamed himself into the house and back out again?

Burke did it. Why can't people face this? Read "Foreign Faction" - Chief Kolar lays it all out in his book.

 

[kanzz]

So much of the evidence is confusing. Supposedly, JBR was face down when strangled, based on the urine stains on front of her clothing. But she must have been flipped over immediately because the livor mortis was on her backside. Blood on pillow in bedroom. Basically 3 attack locations. Hope someone confesses someday.

Not necessarily 3 attack locations, imo. The pillow stain may or may not be related to anything that night. She could have received the blow to the head somewhere near to where she was strangled. We don't really know for sure. She was turned sometime soon after death, probably during the staging and undoing. And a confession? Unlikely, unless it is a morphine induced death-bed confession that will ever recorded.

 

[PositiveLight]

EyesofTheSouth,
What if it was one of the parents that whacked JonBenet, as part of the intended staging, and when it appeared to fail asphyxiated her?

.

But there was only one head injury correct? She wasn't hit on the head more than once IIRC. So with that said, why would they whack her and strangle her for no reason? That would actually become first degree murder on either of them. There wouldn't be a need for staging if she wasn't already dead. If she had been molested, I don't think the first answer would be to kill her. What I mean is if she was molested, and no other injuries, why in the heck would they kill her?
She had to have been dead or they perceived her as dead when the final ligature was applied. If she was dead from a ligature only, then whacking her on the head wouldn't lead to blood loss and swelling of the brain. Or the vagina either. So there had to be some sort of penetration prior to her death because blood was noted in the vaginal vault. Plus she had been wiped down and clothes changed.
I just wonder if they were playing doctor and he caused her to bleed + scream and that is when the head wound occurred by BR. To shut her up. Maybe he tried to drag her to her room from his leaving the marks on her neck. Maybe The parents either caught him moving her or found her after the fact and thought he strangled her and molested her. He may have never told them exactly what he did and they initially thought she was choked and cleaned her up redressed her took her to basement and staged the scene to look like a ligature strangulation. When they applied the ligature though it finished her off and her bladder released. They may have not even realized they actually caused the final move to end her life. Then just wrapped her in the blanket and started covering the scene and writing the letter. I could see BR doing one of four things. 1.) Confessing out of fear. 2.) Confessing to watch the pain it caused his parents. 3.) Refusing to answer any of their questions out of fear 4.) Refusing to answer to taunt them more.
If she did scream, it may have been a normal thing and the parents didn't even pay attention. It could've sounded like them just horse playing. My daughter would scream so loud it would curdle your blood and my son would just be taken a toy or something. She would do it hoping to get him in trouble. So I could see in a small way ignoring screams if your kids did it all the time during normal skirmishes. "I want to watch this movie..no I am older I pick out the movie...little sister *SCREAMS*" for example. My daughter quit screaming like that when I put her little butt in the corner for it. I tried to teach them that they should never cry wolf. Only save the screaming for when something is bad not just when you don't get your way. She caught on quickly cause she hated time out.
Let me share a story with y'all. I collected antique candle holders at one time. I had this beautiful set of solid wood ones. Very heavy. My son was 6 and my daughter was two. My son loved to grab her toys from her to pester her. I had warned him that eventually she would defend herself and he wouldn't listen. They were watching a movie and I was studying. Sitting right in front of me. My daughter was playing with "ugly baby (her favorite doll which was named that because she had covered it in bandaids one day and played outside with it. Left it covered in yucky bandaid scars all over it and she refused for it to have on clothes)" anyway! She loved that doll and took it everywhere. Much to our embarrassment. That day my son decides to snatch it from her and starts playing with it. My two year old daughter calmly gets up... walks behind the couch where I was sitting. I thought she was just getting another toy. NOPE. She grabbed one of those big wooden candle sticks and within seconds knocked him over the head with it! Stuns him obviously and me too! She grabs her baby doll back and sits down beside him and simply says "no!". Thankfully he was fine but he learned his lesson. He never grabbed anything from her again! He wasnt hurt except his feelings. My point is sometimes kids react when the other kid does something out of impulse. My daughter, in this case, did it intentionally. But she didn't realize he could have been really hurt.
Imho Burke was old enough to know he would gravely injure her with a hard impact. I can see a kid 6 or younger not understanding but almost 10???

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[UKGuy]

What if it was an alien who beamed himself into the house and back out again?

Burke did it. Why can't people face this? Read "Foreign Faction" - Chief Kolar lays it all out in his book.

Heymom,
mmm. well I'm one of those people who do not believe everything I read. There is nothing in the forensic evidence to suggest conclusively who whacked JonBenet on the head, so I guess maybe it was an alien ...


.

 

[UKGuy]

But there was only one head injury correct? She wasn't hit on the head more than once IIRC. So with that said, why would they whack her and strangle her for no reason? That would actually become first degree murder on either of them. There wouldn't be a need for staging if she wasn't already dead. If she had been molested, I don't think the first answer would be to kill her. What I mean is if she was molested, and no other injuries, why in the heck would they kill her?
She had to have been dead or they perceived her as dead when the final ligature was applied. If she was dead from a ligature only, then whacking her on the head wouldn't lead to blood loss and swelling of the brain. Or the vagina either. So there had to be some sort of penetration prior to her death because blood was noted in the vaginal vault. Plus she had been wiped down and clothes changed.
I just wonder if they were playing doctor and he caused her to bleed + scream and that is when the head wound occurred by BR. To shut her up. Maybe he tried to drag her to her room from his leaving the marks on her neck. Maybe The parents either caught him moving her or found her after the fact and thought he strangled her and molested her. He may have never told them exactly what he did and they initially thought she was choked and cleaned her up redressed her took her to basement and staged the scene to look like a ligature strangulation. When they applied the ligature though it finished her off and her bladder released. They may have not even realized they actually caused the final move to end her life. Then just wrapped her in the blanket and started covering the scene and writing the letter. I could see BR doing one of four things. 1.) Confessing out of fear. 2.) Confessing to watch the pain it caused his parents. 3.) Refusing to answer any of their questions out of fear 4.) Refusing to answer to taunt them more.
If she did scream, it may have been a normal thing and the parents didn't even pay attention. It could've sounded like them just horse playing. My daughter would scream so loud it would curdle your blood and my son would just be taken a toy or something. She would do it hoping to get him in trouble. So I could see in a small way ignoring screams if your kids did it all the time during normal skirmishes. "I want to watch this movie..no I am older I pick out the movie...little sister *SCREAMS*" for example. My daughter quit screaming like that when I put her little butt in the corner for it. I tried to teach them that they should never cry wolf. Only save the screaming for when something is bad not just when you don't get your way. She caught on quickly cause she hated time out.
Let me share a story with y'all. I collected antique candle holders at one time. I had this beautiful set of solid wood ones. Very heavy. My son was 6 and my daughter was two. My son loved to grab her toys from her to pester her. I had warned him that eventually she would defend herself and he wouldn't listen. They were watching a movie and I was studying. Sitting right in front of me. My daughter was playing with "ugly baby (her favorite doll which was named that because she had covered it in bandaids one day and played outside with it. Left it covered in yucky bandaid scars all over it and she refused for it to have on clothes)" anyway! She loved that doll and took it everywhere. Much to our embarrassment. That day my son decides to snatch it from her and starts playing with it. My two year old daughter calmly gets up... walks behind the couch where I was sitting. I thought she was just getting another toy. NOPE. She grabbed one of those big wooden candle sticks and within seconds knocked him over the head with it! Stuns him obviously and me too! She grabs her baby doll back and sits down beside him and simply says "no!". Thankfully he was fine but he learned his lesson. He never grabbed anything from her again! He wasnt hurt except his feelings. My point is sometimes kids react when the other kid does something out of impulse. My daughter, in this case, did it intentionally. But she didn't realize he could have been really hurt.
Imho Burke was old enough to know he would gravely injure her with a hard impact. I can see a kid 6 or younger not understanding but almost 10???

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PositiveLight,
With the greatest respect, you and others are simply over thinking this. I know why, its the need for a narrative, but crime-scenes don't always progress in a narrative manner, i.e Quantico, CIS, etc.

Start from a KISS or OCCAM basis, then add in complexity, assuming complexity runs the risk that it was never there, i.e. BR manually strangled JonBenet, then the parents delivered the head blow and asphyxiation in attempt at staging.

Without the True Bills I would go for PDI, with all her forensic deposits, but with an unnamed person that has a unique charge, distinct from that of the parents, I accept it must be BDI.

Yet it does not follow that BR did it all, that's a Kolar idea.

.

 

[Heymom]

Heymom,
mmm. well I'm one of those people who do not believe everything I read. There is nothing in the forensic evidence to suggest conclusively who whacked JonBenet on the head, so I guess maybe it was an alien ...


.

Read "Foreign Faction." Chief Kolar has read the entire case file, seen all of the interviews, knows what the GJ saw and heard, so I defer to his opinion, since I have seen almost none of the evidence. I don't believe *everything* I read but when I read things from someone who has lived with this case and knows it backward forward and sideways, I have to think there is something to it.

 

[Heymom]

PositiveLight,
With the greatest respect, you and others are simply over thinking this. I know why, its the need for a narrative, but crime-scenes don't always progress in a narrative manner, i.e Quantico, CIS, etc.

Start from a KISS or OCCAM basis, then add in complexity, assuming complexity runs the risk that it was never there, i.e. BR manually strangled JonBenet, then the parents delivered the head blow and asphyxiation in attempt at staging.

Without the True Bills I would go for PDI, with all her forensic deposits, but with an unnamed person that has a unique charge, distinct from that of the parents, I accept it must be BDI.

Yet it does not follow that BR did it all, that's a Kolar idea.

.

That's not just HIS idea, since he had access to the entire case files. But whatever, think what you will.

 

[UKGuy]

Read "Foreign Faction." Chief Kolar has read the entire case file, seen all of the interviews, knows what the GJ saw and heard, so I defer to his opinion, since I have seen almost none of the evidence. I don't believe *everything* I read but when I read things from someone who has lived with this case and knows it backward forward and sideways, I have to think there is something to it.

Heymom,
Kepler, Newton, they read all the books, reviewed all the evidence, yet Einstein trumped them all. So get real, and cut out the Kolar knows it all stuff, if he did, he would be putting cuffs on one of the R's.


.

 

[kanzz]

PositiveLight,With the greatest respect, you and others are simply over thinking this. I know why, its the need for a narrative, but crime-scenes don't always progress in a narrative manner, i.e Quantico, CIS, etc. Start from a KISS or OCCAM basis, then add in complexity, assuming complexity runs the risk that it was never there, i.e. BR manually strangled JonBenet, then the parents delivered the head blow and asphyxiation in attempt at staging.Without the True Bills I would go for PDI, with all her forensic deposits, but with an unnamed person that has a unique charge, distinct from that of the parents, I accept it must be BDI.Yet it does not follow that BR did it all, that's a Kolar idea..

Also with great respect, UKGuy, my KISS / Occam's approach leads me to think that BDI all - from the manual strangulation with the shirt, to the blow to the head, to the molestation, to the final asphyxiation - and that then he either left her there and went to bed or that PR came upon the scene and sent him to bed, after which she did the staging and undoing. For my mind, this is the most simple scenario. I also think Kolar came to his conclusions based on info and items in evidence we can't know, so I'm inclined to follow his lead with this.. although I had already formed the bulk of my theory before I read FF. And that, as they say, is why they make Chevys and Fords. Because we all are entitled to our own opinions. And it is good.

 

[Scandigirl]

Read "Foreign Faction." Chief Kolar has read the entire case file, seen all of the interviews, knows what the GJ saw and heard, so I defer to his opinion, since I have seen almost none of the evidence. I don't believe *everything* I read but when I read things from someone who has lived with this case and knows it backward forward and sideways, I have to think there is something to it.

Hope no one minds, but just to throw yet another trail of thought into the mix- I was listening to Episode 40 of Jim Clemente and Laura Richards' interviews on Real Crime on Sound Cloud, the episode covering the autopsy report... They, too, were hypothesising about the possible sequence of events that night. They said they couldn't know for sure what happened, either, but Jim C mentioned something interesting...

He basically said that they couldn't be sure if or what happened fully or partially in the basement. He also thought that JB was partially strangled initially, for example by someone twisting her collar... (If I remember correctly, this would be before the head blow or final strangulation).He then said, for all anyone knows, JB could have struggled and broken free at that point, and run and hidden somewhere in the house. He said that Burke may have spent some time searching for her, during the long time lapse.

This caught my attention, as in that hypothetical scenario, surely Jim C is theorising about a possible attempt to hunt JB out, rather than a one-off head blow done in momentary rage. This confused me, as I was pretty sure Jim C had always called Burke's actions an accident? Just yet more confusion!

Sorry my details on this are a bit vague, and I'm rubbish at posting links. But, type in Jim Clemente Laura Richards sound cloud, and it should come up. Just another hypothetical possibility about how it might have all played out that night to wonder about, to add to Kolar and all the others. Sorry, not meaning to jump in the middle of the discussion!

 

[UKGuy]

Also with great respect, UKGuy, my KISS / Occam's approach leads me to think that BDI all - from the manual strangulation with the shirt, to the blow to the head, to the molestation, to the final asphyxiation - and that then he either left her there and went to bed or that PR came upon the scene and sent him to bed, after which she did the staging and undoing. For my mind, this is the most simple scenario. I also think Kolar came to his conclusions based on info and items in evidence we can't know, so I'm inclined to follow his lead with this.. although I had already formed the bulk of my theory before I read FF. And that, as they say, is why they make Chevys and Fords. Because we all are entitled to our own opinions. And it is good.

kanzz,
Sure, why not, but does have to be as laid down by Kolar, otherwise we still be living in the land of Steve Thomas, or Lou Smit.

I reckon what you outline is not that far from the truth.

 

[Annapurna]

Hope no one minds, but just to throw yet another trail of thought into the mix- I was listening to Episode 40 of Jim Clemente and Laura Richards' interviews on Real Crime on Sound Cloud, the episode covering the autopsy report... They, too, were hypothesising about the possible sequence of events that night. They said they couldn't know for sure what happened, either, but Jim C mentioned something interesting...

He basically said that they couldn't be sure if or what happened fully or partially in the basement. He also thought that JB was partially strangled initially, for example by someone twisting her collar... (If I remember correctly, this would be before the head blow or final strangulation).He then said, for all anyone knows, JB could have struggled and broken free at that point, and run and hidden somewhere in the house. He said that Burke may have spent some time searching for her, during the long time lapse.

This caught my attention, as in that hypothetical scenario, surely Jim C is theorising about a possible attempt to hunt JB out, rather than a one-off head blow done in momentary rage. This confused me, as I was pretty sure Jim C had always called Burke's actions an accident? Just yet more confusion!

Sorry my details on this are a bit vague, and I'm rubbish at posting links. But, type in Jim Clemente Laura Richards sound cloud, and it should come up. Just another hypothetical possibility about how it might have all played out that night to wonder about, to add to Kolar and all the others. Sorry, not meaning to jump in the middle of the discussion!

I think CBS wanted to play it a little safe with their theory. The hunting scenario isn't as palatable as an accident to the 10 million viewers who tuned in. So it's likely that is why JC saved the most wild speculation for the podcast.

U.K. guy, I agree that we need an Occam approach. I don't think there needs to be an initial manual or shirt strangulation like Kolar does. I know from research (and the ever informative otg) that ligature strangulation alone could cause all the wounds on her neck (that large bruise, the petechia and the lower ring of bruising/blanching).

Now this is where some people get uncomfortable though, because it's hard to imagine a young boy being so brutal. Additionally we have been told for 20 years that this was staging done by the parents (which makes no sense to me, I understand saving your child, I don't understand abusing your very recently deceased daughters corpse).

If BDI, then BDIA (did it all-except the staging) imo. No one will be able to convince me BR wrote the note no matter how hard they try. I don't think I would believe a confession even, lol.

I know this case is complex and has ridiculous amounts of conflicting evidence but I truly believe there is an explanation more simple than we know for all of it.


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[Ambitioned]

That is Dr. Spitz's theory, having to do with the pineapple. I have never believed that version of events. I believe everything happened in the basement.

I do too. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. Kolar had access to what? 60k pages of evidence? Who am I, a mere poster, to argue with him?

 

[kanzz]

kanzz,
Sure, why not, but does have to be as laid down by Kolar, otherwise we still be living in the land of Steve Thomas, or Lou Smit.

I reckon what you outline is not that far from the truth.

the land of Thomas and Smit - Oh My! What a world, what a world.

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[Annapurna]

I do too. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. Kolar had access to what? 60k pages of evidence? Who am I, a mere poster, to argue with him?

Kolar believes it started in the breakfast room.

 

[Triple L]

Has there ever been any explaination about where JR was during that hour and a half or so when Det. Arndt didn't know where he was?

 

[Triple L]

^^^ Never mind my question above. I have read TONS about this case and have never seen an explaination about where he was. Then I went to the thread about members' theories. A thread I had specifically stayed away from because I wanted to make sure I pretty much had all the facts and had figured things out in my own mind before I started reading everyone's theories...and boom! There it was. Figures. LOL!

 

[PositiveLight]

PositiveLight,
With the greatest respect, you and others are simply over thinking this. I know why, its the need for a narrative, but crime-scenes don't always progress in a narrative manner, i.e Quantico, CIS, etc.

Start from a KISS or OCCAM basis, then add in complexity, assuming complexity runs the risk that it was never there, i.e. BR manually strangled JonBenet, then the parents delivered the head blow and asphyxiation in attempt at staging.

Without the True Bills I would go for PDI, with all her forensic deposits, but with an unnamed person that has a unique charge, distinct from that of the parents, I accept it must be BDI.

Yet it does not follow that BR did it all, that's a Kolar idea.

.

With the greatest respect to you, I wasn't over complicating it. Actually I was leaning towards your theory. I am well aware that murder scenes do not play out like TV. Not all questions get answered. I am BDI intentionally and his parents covered it up. Sometimes we need to think out loud. Which is what I was doing. It's kinda silly for everyone to feel like they have to prove something. We can work as a team and think out loud. There is no harm in that. There are questions that we may never have answers to although I pray one day there is an answer. More than likely it's really simple. But we can all add our experiences and thoughts as long as we follow the TOS. I respect everyone's opinions here even if we don't agree. I was simply stating in my rambling way that at his age he had enough reasoning to know what he was doing was dangerous and wrong. Compared to my 2 yr old daughter at the time who wasn't able to yet grasp the danger involved. Yet she still acted on impulse. She went to get the candle stick and knew what she was going to do with it. Intent was there if you want to argue it. But she didn't want to really hurt him she just wanted her doll back. Compare that to a strong willed almost ten year old boy and what a decent hit in the would do. It was a candlestick. Who would have thought a 2 yr old would be capable of that? Nothing (except the intruder theory) has to be completely ignored. Although I agree with most, that Chief Kolar had access to all of the facts that we don't and if anyone knows what happened that night to a close proximity, it would be him. So I trust him on that. I also trust Dr. Spitz too because he also had access to most everything except the crime scene which is a pity. He probably would have discovered the murder weapon. It could be an innocent candle stick like mine for example. Which oddly enough was about the size and weight of the flashlight. Not being argumentative just stating that we don't have to be close minded. But I will never believe an intruder did it. Ever. That I AM close minded on lol!
Sometimes when we teach others, we learn something ourselves. Everyone should be open to others coming here and learning. Not everyone is privy to the wealth of knowledge that is found here and the wonderfully hard work everyone has put into this case and all of the cases covered here. I know that everyone gets tired of rehashing things. But for newbies like me I learn new things each day and I am so thankful for that. If we want to see justice for JonBenet and others whose crimes remain unsolved, we must be willing to share knowledge with each other.

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[Heymom]

Heymom,
Kepler, Newton, they read all the books, reviewed all the evidence, yet Einstein trumped them all. So get real, and cut out the Kolar knows it all stuff, if he did, he would be putting cuffs on one of the R's.


.

He has no power to do so, as the statute of limitations has run out on the case and he has no jurisdiction.

The only way we will ever find out any more than any of us knows is if a lawsuit by Lin Wood ever makes it to trial. That will be interesting. I am sure we agree on that at least.