The Case of JonBenet Ramsey-CBS Sept. 18

[RL2]

I agree, except for the part of transporting a dead body via airplane. That would be way too risky.....unless they had their own plane/no baggage handlers??

They DID have a private plane.. At one time, they owned 2 (per one of the many recent TV shows)

 

[Feebot]

They did have a private plane and pilot. John was overheard calling the pilot telling him to get the plane ready.

 

[Tortoise]

How quickly can you swallow a piece of pineapple. Less than one second. Probably less time then for it to take BR to grab the flashlight then hit her over the head. CBS show was world renowned experts. It was well planned out. These folks nailed it. I now believe JBR grabbed a piece of pineapple causing BR to knock her in the head with the flashlight. I'm certain he wasn't intending to kill her though. But the parents realized she is dead and the rest is the cover up. It's the most plausible theory to fit the evidence.


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I think if it happened that fast the pineapple would have still been in her stomach. It was IIRC in her small intestine. While acids would continue to work on it I don't think it would have moved through her digestive tract.

 

[TTF14]

They DID have a private plane.. At one time, they owned 2.

Ah ok. Then yes, it makes total sense.

 

[cady]

I have almost always thought that Burke whacked her with the flashlight, out of anger, and that she was dead when ALLLLLL of the staging took place. Burke clearly had issues. But the actual CRIME was all the staging just to preserve their reputation. I realized last night though, that she was not sexually molested. I always wondered if any redness or irritation in the genital area was a result of JonBenet scratching because she itched.......supposedly she had been treated many times for minor infections in that area. The sliver of wood was microscopic, as it turns out, and probably was a transference when Patsy hauled out those great big "Wednesday" underpants to replace the identical ones that JonB had been wearing. Patsy had bought the package of large pants for a kid relative at the same time she bought the set for JonB. That's what she said, for what it's worth.... Anyway, the pineapple speculation really makes sense to me. Burke was clearly coached never to admit knowledge of the pineapple, and doesn't to this day...but he must have forgotten how he hedged in his interview when he was 11 and was shown that photo of the pineapple bowl and glass of tea. He totally squirmed when he saw the pic and only identified the glass of tea.....hemmed and hawed about the obvious bowl of PINEAPPLE. In his recent interview he said they were not allowed bedtime snacks, but in his childhood interview he said, they would have pudding or yogurt.....or maybe, fruit, he conceded. He is a mess. And WAS a mess. JMO

 

[reintarnation]

I think John was planning to take the body away. They probably planned to bury somewhere on their estate in, I think, Michigan. I believe that when he disappeared, he was trying to fit the body into the suitcase in the basement. Unfortunately, rigor had set in and he was unable to fit her in. They planned to take the suitcase with JonBenet inside and fly to Michigan and then no body would be found and it would appear that the kidnappers killed Jon Benet and hid her body. Leaving the Ramsey's clean and clear. This is why he was so upset after he reappeared and also why he brought the body upstairs. Patsy's grief and shock was genuine, she was not expecting to see JonBenet until the burial in Michigan.

You got my gears turning, Feebot. Personally, I have always thought the staging was pointless if they were going to remove her body from the home. But it's possible that the staging occurred while JR made his solo trip to the basement or when he was unaccounted for.

JR was caught by a detective while he made a telephone call to his pilot. He claimed to the detective that he was arranging to fly out to Atlanta on "important business matters." Obviously, JR was told he couldn't leave at that time, and it was beyond suspicious that he should even attempt to. There is no business matter important enough to privately fly out of state when your daughter has just been found murdered.

Perhaps during his disappearance or even much earlier that day (before LE arrived), he had been making those plans with the intent of transporting JBR's body to Atlanta for a private burial? Thus, the suitcase comes back into play: hide JBR's body in the suitcase and go to Atlanta under the guise of business, such as meeting Lin Wood in person at LW's office or the Ramseys' other home. But once the heat was on and he deemed this was no longer an option, he had to instead find the body and then cancel or alter the flight since things hadn't gone according to plan.

Not sure that this is what I think happened, but food for thought.

 

[Ellie9]

You got my gears turning, Feebot. Personally, I have always thought the staging was pointless if they were going to remove her body from the home. But it's possible that the staging occurred while JR made his solo trip to the basement or when he was unaccounted for.

JR was caught by a detective while he made a telephone call to his pilot. He claimed to the detective that he was arranging to fly out to Atlanta on "important business matters." Obviously, JR was told he couldn't leave at that time, and it was beyond suspicious that he should even attempt to. There is no business matter important enough to privately fly out of state when your daughter has just been found murdered.

Perhaps during his disappearance or even much earlier that day (before LE arrived), he had been making those plans with the intent of transporting JBR's body to Atlanta for a private burial? Thus, the suitcase comes back into play: hide JBR's body in the suitcase and go to Atlanta under the guise of business, such as meeting Lin Wood in person at LW's office or the Ramseys' other home. But once the heat was on and he deemed this was no longer an option, he had to instead find the body and then cancel or alter the flight since things hadn't gone according to plan.

Not sure that this is what I think happened, but food for thought.

This could be where JR was for that unaccounted hour and a half. However, my only problem is he must have really hid the other stuff well. The rest of the duct tape, the rest of the rope (if any else existed), the panties I believe were removed (due to the new panties being ridiculously too big), the package of the new panties (aside from the ones they put on JBR).

It could be possible that he moved them to that trash can outdoors that he had a view from a room in the upstairs where he stayed perched, and went undetected, but that is sooo risky.

 

[asyousay]

With how Rich the family was it's true that the ransom amount was stupid , this family had millions yet you ask for just over 100K

 

[MaryMac250]

I think John was planning to take the body away. They probably planned to bury somewhere on their estate in, I think, Michigan. I believe that when he disappeared, he was trying to fit the body into the suitcase in the basement. Unfortunately, rigor had set in and he was unable to fit her in. They planned to take the suitcase with JonBenet inside and fly to Michigan and then no body would be found and it would appear that the kidnappers killed Jon Benet and hid her body. Leaving the Ramsey's clean and clear. This is why he was so upset after he reappeared and also why he brought the body upstairs. Patsy's grief and shock was genuine, she was not expecting to see JonBenet until the burial in Michigan.

Uh, then why not just delay the call to 911... Buy more time to execute the getaway? No one knew. They could have called up the plane, transported the body wherever, flown back, and then called the police.

 

[andreww]

Wouldn't make much sense for the Rs to fly to Michigan while their daughter is still supposedly kidnapped.

 

[andreww]

Uh, then why not just delay the call to 911... Buy more time to execute the getaway? No one knew. They could have called up the plane, transported the body wherever, flown back, and then called the police.

Not that easy. Flight plans need to be logged and police would find in five minutes that the Rs had been on a quick trip.

 

[Kadoober]

Hi guys!
I am pretty new to this case, having been aware of it for years, but never really digging too deep. I read the note years ago, did a small bit of reading, and that was it. My knowledge is limited.

There was something BR said during the Dr. Phil show that really bugged me, and to hear similar phrasing from JR on the CBS show last night stuck out like a sore thumb. I went back and found the bit from BR, and a couple more things jumped out... taken from Tadpole12's post # 78 on the Dr. Phil thread:

DP EP 3
@ 34
I think your dad had said he used
the flashlight that night to put you to bed
Then you snuck downstairs to play
BR: Ya I had some toy that I wanted to put together
I remember being downstairs after everybody
was kind of in bed and wanting to get this thing out
DP: Did you use the flashlight so you
wouldn't be seen?
BR: I don't remember -
I just remember
being downstairs, I remember this toy
**********************************************
DP: Did you hit your sister over
the head with a baseball bat or flash light?
BR: Absolutely not
DP: If someone in your house did,
do you think you
would have heard it?
BR: probably... ya (bites lip?)

The thing that bothered me initially was BR's distancing himself from the identity of the toy he snuck downstairs to assemble. 'Some toy', 'this thing', 'this toy'. I know that sounds a bit silly, as it has been so long, but for goodness sake, this was the night your sister was murdered, I'd think details would be etched into your mind forever. I would expect something like 'I got this new Lego set, and I couldn't wait to play with it'.

And then last night, JR says that he stayed up to help BR put together a plastic toy he had gotten for Christmas.

Again. A toy. Now a plastic toy, but still.

I found that very odd.

But THEN! Keeping JR's statement in mind.... how did it actually go? Did JR stay up to help him assemble, or did BR sneak down? With all the coaching they had to have had...why would BR say he snuck down now?

(I know it's likely he received more than one gift that required assembly)

What I am wondering is if a) there either was no toy requiring assembly, or it was the kind of toy that could have been used for nefarious purposes, has been disposed of, and thus has no identity, and b) if BR and JR are now trying to intentionally muddy already very murky waters.

 

[reintarnation]

I realized last night though, that she was not sexually molested. I always wondered if any redness or irritation in the genital area was a result of JonBenet scratching because she itched.......supposedly she had been treated many times for minor infections in that area.

This is where having the medical records would be so helpful to the investigation. I was disappointed they did not include discussion about the autopsy findings of prior vaginal trauma. This has been one area of the case that would make or break theories if it could be proven one way or the other.

My take has been that the vaginal trauma could have been caused by violent cleaning by PR after toileting issues, which may have included douching. This would have caused the infections, but it's possible JBR was having other issues. We know of the fecal stains in all her underwear - could the infections have been caused by fecal matter entering her vagina from defecating in her underwear or improper wiping? Could those infections and the treatment of them (could involve a suppository) be the result of her prior hymenal damage? It certainly seems plausible to me, although not concrete enough to rule out prior molestation.

The experts last night stating conclusively, in their opinion, that there was no sexual assault associated with the crime was compelling. My main issue with the sexual assault angle is that the theories about her being molested that night or previously are highly speculative based on scant, imprecise autopsy findings. Those medical records would shed light on this piece of evidence and possibly settle this matter once and for all.

 

[TeaTime]

I agree, except for the part of transporting a dead body via airplane. That would be way too risky.....unless they had their own plane/no baggage handlers??

Well, there ya' go. It has long been established in the public's awareness that JR owned 2 planes. He was a Navy pilot, could fly both planes but also had a pilot for the morning of the 26th to fly them all to Charlevoix. In fact, he was fiddling around with one of the planes on Christmas day after breakfast and before the dinner at the White's house. His pilot's wife was interviewed on one of these specials and the pilots name is a house hold word to WS'rs.

One of the many weird things LE noticed after the body was 'found' is that JR called his pilot and told him to get the plane ready for them all to fly to Atlanta immediately.

 

[reintarnation]

This could be where JR was for that unaccounted hour and a half. However, my only problem is he must have really hid the other stuff well. The rest of the duct tape, the rest of the rope (if any else existed), the panties I believe were removed (due to the new panties being ridiculously too big), the package of the new panties (aside from the ones they put on JBR).

It could be possible that he moved them to that trash can outdoors that he had a view from a room in the upstairs where he stayed perched, and went undetected, but that is sooo risky.

The evidence could have been hidden in the home as well. Remember JR asking about his golf bag from the basement (just outside the WC where JBR was found)? He certainly wasn't going golfing days after his daughter is kidnapped and murdered. PR's sister, Pam Paugh, was allowed to enter the home and collect personal belongings for the family - they gave her a police jacket and everything and allowed her to do this. Many people went in and out of the house that day, and some of the evidence could have walked away from the crime scene in this manner. It could also have been JR's plan to transport those items with him to Atlanta.

I agree the trash can would have been risky, except that with all the Christmas trash going out (wrapping paper, parties, etc.), it might have been easier to dispose of than we think.

 

[reintarnation]

Uh, then why not just delay the call to 911... Buy more time to execute the getaway? No one knew. They could have called up the plane, transported the body wherever, flown back, and then called the police.

Because they had a planned flight to their vacation home in Charlevoix MI on 12/26 @ 7:00 a.m. This created a deadline.

 

[Tortoise]

Uh, then why not just delay the call to 911... Buy more time to execute the getaway? No one knew. They could have called up the plane, transported the body wherever, flown back, and then called the police.

The pilot and other staff at the hangar would have seen JonBenet was missing from the family.

 

[reintarnation]

With how Rich the family was it's true that the ransom amount was stupid , this family had millions yet you ask for just over 100K

IMO this was their attempt at throwing out all the possible motives they could think of. The amount was <$1000 off from JR's bonus, implying that someone in JR's company took part. JR and PR offered employee revenge as a possible motive very early on, while PR denied any knowledge of his bonus amount or business dealings. It's fishy, especially considering all the other possible motives to which the RN alludes.

 

[TheOtherChristina]

Not that easy. Flight plans need to be logged and police would find in five minutes that the Rs had been on a quick trip.

I believe I recall reading somewhere that this was not the case, and that filing a flight plan was optional but not a prerequisite to fly. Can anyone clarify?

 

[Feebot]

Perhaps those other items were stashed in the golf bag John had his friend remove from the home. Who needs golf clubs when your child has just been murdered?

This could be where JR was for that unaccounted hour and a half. However, my only problem is he must have really hid the other stuff well. The rest of the duct tape, the rest of the rope (if any else existed), the panties I believe were removed (due to the new panties being ridiculously too big), the package of the new panties (aside from the ones they put on JBR).

It could be possible that he moved them to that trash can outdoors that he had a view from a room in the upstairs where he stayed perched, and went undetected, but that is sooo risky.