The complicity of Patsy in coverup.

[DeeDee249]

I find it interesting that two detectives in the case- Arndt and ST, both suspect a parent- but a different parent! Arndt, from the first moments, suspected JR. She had the feeling something was amiss; said she thought it very odd that JR raced to the basement first when told to "have another look around"- but from the moment JR came up from the basement holding JB's stiffened corpse straight out from his body like a mannequin- it all fell into place for her. She at that point, suspected JR had killed his daughter. Arndt never placed any blame on Patsy, considering her a victim as well, and I believe this was the case right up to Patsy's death. I have no clue how Arndt feels now- a book was alleged to be forthcoming but as yet it has not. As we know, she also developed "ramnesia" about the events of that day- she developed it as soon as she filed her own lawsuit against the BPD. Wonder if that suit also included the DA's office?
As for ST- he took the opposite view of the parents. He suspected Patsy right from the start, yet seemed to place no blame on JR. I wonder if ST still feels the same? I think he probably hasn't changed his mind on Patsy, but I have a hard time with anyone not seeing that JR would at least be complicit in the staging. And with Patsy's fibers on the tape, cord, and in the paint tote, she cannot be ruled out as having tampered with the crime scene (i.e. the body) either.
I'd love to see a new interview with both ST and Arndt. Doubt we ever will.
ST has left police work for good, and while I am sure he still thinks about JB and her murder often (how could he not? You can't erase something like this), I do not think he wants to open that painful part of his life again. Don't blame him.
As for Arndt, her silence over these years may be part of any settlement she made with her own lawsuit against the BPD. Like LHP, she may also be legally restrained from writing a book about the case.

 

[RTC]

I am almost half way through the ST Book. One thing that is completely disturbing to me was semen was found on JB's bed and surrounding carpet. WTH?
I wonder if it was found on everybed in the house including the other twin bed in her room? Is it possible to know whose semen it is? Something is not right with this. Whose been having sex or masturbating in her room? I know they said many people slept in her room, but I am not buying it. I think if we can identify the sperm we can identify the molester.

 

[MurriFlower]

I am almost half way through the ST Book. One thing that is completely disturbing to me was semen was found on JB's bed and surrounding carpet. WTH?
I wonder if it was found on everybed in the house including the other twin bed in her room? Is it possible to know whose semen it is? Something is not right with this. Whose been having sex or masturbating in her room? I know they said many people slept in her room, but I am not buying it. I think if we can identify the sperm we can identify the molester.

RTC that's the first time I've ever heard this. Can you quote directly from the book about this please?

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I am almost half way through the ST Book. One thing that is completely disturbing to me was semen was found on JB's bed and surrounding carpet. WTH?
I wonder if it was found on everybed in the house including the other twin bed in her room? Is it possible to know whose semen it is? Something is not right with this. Whose been having sex or masturbating in her room? I know they said many people slept in her room, but I am not buying it. I think if we can identify the sperm we can identify the molester.

I remember reading that when John, Patsy, JonBenet, and Burke were away, either in Charlevoix or Atlanta, John Andrew's friend would sleep in one or both of JonBenet's beds. I believe they said it was his semen they find on her beds, and he explained it by saying, it was from when he slept in her bed when she was away.

 

[RTC]

Seems odd that a teen boy would sleep in her room versus one of the other beds.

 

[qtc]

but from the moment JR came up from the basement holding JB's stiffened corpse straight out from his body like a mannequin- it all fell into place for her.

Did he ever say why he was holding the body in this manner?


If it was me, I would imagine myself cradling my child, not holding her out like wet laundry.

 

[Peepers]

She was very stiff and not flexible at all. I dont think the body could have been cradled.he would have not been able to carry her horizontally and get thru the doors, if that makes sense.

 

[UKGuy]

As I try to analyze their behaviors- Patsy seems to be the more panicky one- even though her voice on the 911 call seems too deliberately stressed- with the heavy breathing. That breathing seemed forced. A person who was truly hysterical at finding their child missing and a RN would be crying, not just panting. So we have a mother, distraught at what happened to her child. And what had to be DONE to her child. Then we have the father- JR seeming oddly calm. Calm during the 911 call, calm when police arrived shortly after, casually looking through his mail. The take-charge type; and the staging was already done at that point- all that was left was for police to "find" her. This was important because the Rs knew they'd be leaving that house and not returning, and I firmly believe they did not want to leave her to rot and be found by cadaver dogs when neighbors reported the smell. Except LE didn't find her. And he was surprised that FW didn't find her either when he looked into the WC earlier (unbeknownst to JR). I believe (and forensics agrees) that she was placed in the WC within minutes of her death, but I also believe that around 10-11 am on the 26th, during the time Det. Arndt claimed JR had disappeared, that he went down to the WC and moved her (possibly by simply pulling her along the floor, blanket and all) to a position closer to the door. Then, the first chance he got (given to him by Det. Arndt) he ran straight to the basement and "found" her.
Then we have the strange detachment of BR that morning- happily and calmly going off to play his new Nintendo at a friend's. No worries about his sister- no fear that maybe HE would be kidnapped, too. It is as if he knew she was still in the house. (she was, but at this point she was supposed to have been kidnapped).
These three behaviors point to family involvement on some level, probably by all three. It seems more likely to me at this point that the parents covered up this horrible death for one (or two) of their kids. Patsy stressed but not hysterical. JR stressed but calm, almost resigned. That is actually how I see JR when it comes to this crime-resigned.
Combine this with the inexplicable silence of Patsy's parents and one of her sisters, and some odd comments from her stepdaughter's then-fiancee, the fracturing of close friendships, and the whole mess stinks of a coverup.

DeeDee249,
I agree with much af what you say. They all played their roles camly except for Patsy who became grief stricken.

Patsy lying about placing the size-12's into JonBenet's underwear drawer tells you she is lying in ignorance, that is, colluding in a coverup!

And he was surprised that FW didn't find her either when he looked into the WC earlier (unbeknownst to JR). I believe (and forensics agrees) that she was placed in the WC within minutes of her death,

Does this mean the staging was underatken within minutes? Also given that there were only three resident in the house why the necesity to place her in the wine-cellar within minutes of her death?

Where does that fit in with any theory?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

I am almost half way through the ST Book. One thing that is completely disturbing to me was semen was found on JB's bed and surrounding carpet. WTH?
I wonder if it was found on everybed in the house including the other twin bed in her room? Is it possible to know whose semen it is? Something is not right with this. Whose been having sex or masturbating in her room? I know they said many people slept in her room, but I am not buying it. I think if we can identify the sperm we can identify the molester.

I have read that book too, never heard this before. Are you sure you don't mean the semen that was found on the comforter belonging to JAR, her half-brother? That is the only semen found in the case. That comforter/blanket was found in the basement inside a suitcase that JAR used to go back and forth to the college campus a few minutes away.

 

[DeeDee249]

She was very stiff and not flexible at all. I dont think the body could have been cradled.he would have not been able to carry her horizontally and get thru the doors, if that makes sense.

Exactly right.

But also, realize this had to be a HORRIBLE experience, regardless of how you feel about his involvement. It was a way of distancing himself from the corpse- a way of distancing the corpse from the child it had once been. She was pale, cold, stiff, and had an odor of decay. He couldn't bring himself to touch her except for the waistband of her longjohns. He carried her facing out- her face away from him.

 

[DeeDee249]

No it does not mean the staging took place within minutes. She was staged during the previous night. The FORENSIC SCIENCE tells us she was placed in the WC within minutes of her death. I have explained this SO many times, but here goes again:

Livor mortis forms within 15 minutes or so after death. For some time after that, livor is UNFIXED, also known as "blanching". This means that under pressure, blood will be pushed from under the source of pressure, and form a white area. As blood settles (from gravity) it forms a red/purple area as gravity pulls it to the lowest area of the body, the parts touching the floor or ground, etc. If she had been moved during that period, there would be a second (or third or as many times as she was moved) pattern. She had ONLY ONE PATTERN. There is a time when livor becomes FIXED (also known as NON-Blanching). After that, no further livor patterns will form.
HOWEVER by that time- RIGOR MORTIS has formed- and the body would have retained the position it was placed in when rigor formed- this begins to form within the first hour after death in most circumstances.
So to break it down- if JB were moved after death during the first hours (the overnight hours before LE arrived) there would have been more than one livor pattern. So she had to have been moved (if she was moved at all) AFTER that, which would also be after the 911 call and the arrival of people at the house.
Her livor and rigor indicate she was placed ON HER BACK with her head cocked to the right, within the first 15-30 minutes after her death.
She could have been moved by JR that morning without a new livor pattern forming, but her body would still retain the same position (because of rigor).
So the STAGING had to have taken place during the night, but her body could have been moved by JR that day. When I say moved- I mean she could have been pulled along the floor a few feet to place her closer to the door, easier to see when looking in the room. I doubt she could have been moved from anywhere else, because by that time, police, the FBI and people were searching all over the house. She could NOT have been in a freezer, fridge, or anywhere else where her legs could not have been straight and she had to have been on her back.

 

[qtc]

Exactly right.

But also, realize this had to be a HORRIBLE experience, regardless of how you feel about his involvement. It was a way of distancing himself from the corpse- a way of distancing the corpse from the child it had once been. She was pale, cold, stiff, and had an odor of decay. He couldn't bring himself to touch her except for the waistband of her longjohns. He carried her facing out- her face away from him.

Ok, I understand. Still not sure if I would have handled it the same way.

If he felt that way, why didnt he just call LE to come down to her?

Didnt Patsy throw herself all over the body when John laid her on the floor?

Did Arndt think John was guilty because he immediately went down to the basement when told to have another look around, or was it the way he was holding her when he came back up?

 

[RTC]

I have read that book too, never heard this before. Are you sure you don't mean the semen that was found on the comforter belonging to JAR, her half-brother? That is the only semen found in the case. That comforter/blanket was found in the basement inside a suitcase that JAR used to go back and forth to the college campus a few minutes away.

I downloaded the book onto my IPAD. it is page 61.
Among the items police now sought.....They were also looking for traces of semen, and in the victim's bedroom,ultraviolet light showed stains on the bed and surrounding carpet. The mattress was wrapped in plastic.

The way I read it , is that they found semen on her bed and in her carpet.

 

[qtc]

Just wanted to add this:

This excerpt is from Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation (page 30 I believe):

The body itself was now a crime scene and should have been declared totally off-limits, even to the distraught parents, until it could be professionally examined. But Ramsey knelt beside his daughter and stroked her hair, then lay down and put his arms around her.......He came to his knees, peered around, then hugged JonBenet and called her his little angel.

So he distanced himself from her when bringing her up from the basement, but then stroked her hair, laid beside her, put his arm around her, etc. later on??

 

[UKGuy]

No it does not mean the staging took place within minutes. She was staged during the previous night. The FORENSIC SCIENCE tells us she was placed in the WC within minutes of her death. I have explained this SO many times, but here goes again:

Livor mortis forms within 15 minutes or so after death. For some time after that, livor is UNFIXED, also known as "blanching". This means that under pressure, blood will be pushed from under the source of pressure, and form a white area. As blood settles (from gravity) it forms a red/purple area as gravity pulls it to the lowest area of the body, the parts touching the floor or ground, etc. If she had been moved during that period, there would be a second (or third or as many times as she was moved) pattern. She had ONLY ONE PATTERN. There is a time when livor becomes FIXED (also known as NON-Blanching). After that, no further livor patterns will form.
HOWEVER by that time- RIGOR MORTIS has formed- and the body would have retained the position it was placed in when rigor formed- this begins to form within the first hour after death in most circumstances.
So to break it down- if JB were moved after death during the first hours (the overnight hours before LE arrived) there would have been more than one livor pattern. So she had to have been moved (if she was moved at all) AFTER that, which would also be after the 911 call and the arrival of people at the house.
Her livor and rigor indicate she was placed ON HER BACK with her head cocked to the right, within the first 15-30 minutes after her death.
She could have been moved by JR that morning without a new livor pattern forming, but her body would still retain the same position (because of rigor).
So the STAGING had to have taken place during the night, but her body could have been moved by JR that day. When I say moved- I mean she could have been pulled along the floor a few feet to place her closer to the door, easier to see when looking in the room. I doubt she could have been moved from anywhere else, because by that time, police, the FBI and people were searching all over the house. She could NOT have been in a freezer, fridge, or anywhere else where her legs could not have been straight and she had to have been on her back.

DeeDee249,
I am familiar with your account of livor pattern onset ect. I am not questioning either the mechanics or its consistency.

Only that you said:

And he was surprised that FW didn't find her either when he looked into the WC earlier (unbeknownst to JR). I believe (and forensics agrees) that she was placed in the WC within minutes of her death,

Just that it took minutes for JonBenet to arrive in the wine-cellar?

What do you think prompted such rapid staging behaviour?


.

 

[UKGuy]

I downloaded the book onto my IPAD. it is page 61.
Among the items police now sought.....They were also looking for traces of semen, and in the victim's bedroom,ultraviolet light showed stains on the bed and surrounding carpet. The mattress was wrapped in plastic.

The way I read it , is that they found semen on her bed and in her carpet.

RTC,

Maybe then maybe not. The same claims were made after the autopsy regarding the use of ultraviolet light and semen stains, these wre later shown to be unfounded.

If there had been any stranger dna, even that belonging to friends of JAR, Burke etc, then we would have heard all about it by now. Just as we have been told about the underwear dna, but not its type e.g. semen or skin.


.

 

[madeleine]

I find it interesting that two detectives in the case- Arndt and ST, both suspect a parent- but a different parent! Arndt, from the first moments, suspected JR. She had the feeling something was amiss; said she thought it very odd that JR raced to the basement first when told to "have another look around"- but from the moment JR came up from the basement holding JB's stiffened corpse straight out from his body like a mannequin- it all fell into place for her. She at that point, suspected JR had killed his daughter. Arndt never placed any blame on Patsy, considering her a victim as well, and I believe this was the case right up to Patsy's death. I have no clue how Arndt feels now- a book was alleged to be forthcoming but as yet it has not. As we know, she also developed "ramnesia" about the events of that day- she developed it as soon as she filed her own lawsuit against the BPD. Wonder if that suit also included the DA's office?
As for ST- he took the opposite view of the parents. He suspected Patsy right from the start, yet seemed to place no blame on JR. I wonder if ST still feels the same? I think he probably hasn't changed his mind on Patsy, but I have a hard time with anyone not seeing that JR would at least be complicit in the staging. And with Patsy's fibers on the tape, cord, and in the paint tote, she cannot be ruled out as having tampered with the crime scene (i.e. the body) either.
I'd love to see a new interview with both ST and Arndt. Doubt we ever will.
ST has left police work for good, and while I am sure he still thinks about JB and her murder often (how could he not? You can't erase something like this), I do not think he wants to open that painful part of his life again. Don't blame him.
As for Arndt, her silence over these years may be part of any settlement she made with her own lawsuit against the BPD. Like LHP, she may also be legally restrained from writing a book about the case.

I don't like either of them (ST,LA)....but if I were to trust someone's instinct it would be hers,I mean she had experience re abuse AND she was present that morning and observed the two parents,especially JR after bringing up JB's body from the basement.

 

[MurriFlower]

I downloaded the book onto my IPAD. it is page 61.
Among the items police now sought.....They were also looking for traces of semen, and in the victim's bedroom,ultraviolet light showed stains on the bed and surrounding carpet. The mattress was wrapped in plastic.

The way I read it , is that they found semen on her bed and in her carpet.

Were we not informed (here recently) that the 'light' the cops use to detect semen also detects blood and urine and doesn't distinguish between them? Initially they thought there was semen on JBR's body, but found when tested it was smeared blood. Wouldn't urine would be fairly common on and around the bed of a bedwetter?

 

[MurriFlower]

I don't like either of them (ST,LA)....but if I were to trust someone's instinct it would be hers,I mean she had experience re abuse AND she was present that morning and observed the two parents,especially JR after bringing up JB's body from the basement.

Why would you trust anything that emanated from someone who demonstrated such gross incompetence?? Was there one single thing she did correctly that would cause you to trust her instinct?

 

[twinkiesmom]

Why would you trust anything that emanated from someone who demonstrated such gross incompetence?? Was there one single thing she did correctly that would cause you to trust her instinct?

Didn't she call for backup and it wasn't heeded?