The cries for help

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While that is a great visual and something I'm sure that the defense will use in the trial there is one problem with it..........the evidence that we have seen so far does not back it up. Zimmerman shows no signs of a life or death struggle/fight at all on the police station videos. There are no blood stains on either his shirt or jacket that are visible on the police station videos. EMS released Zimmerman after a few minutes without so much as a bandage on his injuries.
BEM: The eye witnesses back it up, and the statement given by GZ the night of the shooting does not conflict with their statements, according to the investigator for the prosecution.
Trayvon could have very well been on top of Zimmerman because of Zimmerman refusing to release him. We have no idea if Zimmerman had his gun out at the time or not. I know that if someone had a hold of me, refused to let me go and had a gun pointed at me I would be fighting like hell to get away while screaming and pleading for my life. And I am not a 17 year old kid either.
MOO

BEM: So you can actually visualize the 5'8" GZ, holding onto a screaming 6'3" TM, while lying beneath him holding a gun on him? Was TM sitting there helpless with his hands in the air screaming and not trying to get away? How is that realistically or logistically feasible?
 
I listened to the call with the yelling last night over and over, just trying to put myself in the situation of the person yelling. The pleas are agonizing. They are from someone scared for their life. I imagine a stranger covering my nose and mouth, moving my head away to scream only to have my mouth covered again, swallowing blood from somewhere (no mistaking the taste), not knowing what damage has already been done ... feeling like I'm going in and out of consciousness ... terror will make a person pass out. Forty five seconds can seem like a lifetime when you feel like your life is about to end, everything is in slow motion. Why won't someone help? I see two people, they leave, no one is going to help, oh my God, he's going to kill me. I keep moving, trying to get away but this guy is on my chest, I can't breathe, I can't get him off me, I can only hit him in his legs, his stomach, nothing is working, HELP!! I have no choice but to shoot this guy or his going to kill me. The screaming stops.

I tried to put myself in Trayvon's place, on top of GZ, screaming for help. I can't get past why he would be in the power position screaming for help, or why the two witnesses would find the sight of a screaming Trayvon on top of George, a terrifying scenario rather than curious. If I saw Trayvon screaming and he was on top of George, I would immediately think he was trying to get attention to help George. Like a scene from a movie when someone's been hit by a car and the bystander runs over, tries to determine if the person is alive or dead, and starts yelling for someone to call 911

Some have said they think GZ was holding onto TM's hoodie. Sort of ridiculous when you really stop and try to visualize it - hoodies are made of stretchy material, TM would be pulling away and on his feet or on his side, moving away, not on top of GZ, screaming. If GZ's intent was to shoot TM, he would have shot him right away instead of allowing him to scream for almost a full minute, attracting attention.

JMO

While this scenario makes perfect sense and seems logical to some, to me, it sounds unbelievable and more than incredible. IMO the evidence does not support this version of events. And by evidence, I'm talking about GZ's stories, FT's stories, his brother's and his father's stories, the video of him at the jail, and the information about the call with Trayvon's girlfriend.

The fight described sounds very graphic and scary, the attacks GZ's friend, dad and brother describe sound horrific and scary. A 45 second fight, where you are literally getting the life beat out of you, would definitely leave some signs of this life and death struggle. Both parties would show these signs of this life and death struggle. Let's just address that first.

I don't know who has ever seen two men fighting before, struggling around on the ground. I've come upon it more than once, so this is my own opinion based on my observations from previous experience. Once these men have been seperated, there is disheveled clothing, hair all a mess, blood on each other's clothing, sometimes clothes are torn, sweat, heavy breathing, grass and dirt stains on clothing, sometimes people even lose shoes or pieces of clothing come off. These are not generally life and death struggles but a couple of people definitely trying to get the best of the other.

Now...we have this video of GZ at the police station at approximately what? 30 minutes after this life or death struggle, swallowing blood, having his head slammed into the concrete over and over until he was losing conciousness? Take a good look at that footage. His clothes appear dry and clean, not torn, certainly not disheveled in any way, his shirt is tucked in for goodness sake. He does not have ONE bandage on him, not even for the little bitty cut on the back of his head. Not even a bandaid. He is handcuffed behind his back and walks with no difficulty, climbs out of a squad car, maintains his balance, which is difficult for drunks to do so I would imagine it would be difficult for someone woozy from getting his head bashed into concrete repeatedly a mere 30 minutes or so before. He does not appear to be in distress, upset or in any way showing signs that a mere 30 minutes before he was not just in a fight but in a life or death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475

Ok, now why it is difficult to understand why Trayvon would be screaming. Well, that is also very simple IMO. You're absolutely right, it makes no sense to scream if you've got the upper hand, so IMO Trayvon did not have the upper hand. We will just have to agree to disagree on this front. I believe that those screams come from Trayvon. I will explain why I think John and this other witness (whose mother has said he was coerced by the way) describe seeing Trayvon on top. IMO I see the scenario as such...

I believe that GZ exited his vehicle, followed Trayvon, saw the direction he was going and knew that he could cut him off at the cut through further down between the townhomes. He hung up with the call taker and didn't give a location to meet the officers because he had every intention of heading him off, detaining him, and presenting him to the police like a trophy. In other words, playing the cop. Problem with that is that George is NOT a police officer in a uniform and does not have any authority to detain anyone. In fact, he is a STRANGER! So....he cuts Trayvon off at the cut through. I believe that Trayvon had stopped "walking fast, running" whatever, because he believed he had lost GZ. GZ steps out, hence the question from Trayvon, why are you following me? GZ, not in a police uniform with no authority, supposedly says what are you doing here. Followed by sounds of a push or something. IMO I believe that GZ reached out to grab Trayvon to detain him. Trayvon, rightly so, is frightened by this stranger and pushes or punches GZ, GZ falls back and hits the back of his head on something that creates that small cut on the back of his head in the picture. There may be another one a little higher up but hard to see since the photo is washed out. And note that this photo was 3 minutes after a shot that ended a life and death struggle, yet there is no grass, no mud, no dirt, no debris, nothing on his jacket or his head and the blood does not appear disturbed from it's path of flow and there is nothing like grass or anything else stuck in this wet, fresh blood. Not sure how that happened, considering he supposedly was getting smashed on the sidewalk and then moved his head to the grass. I would expect to see blood smeared, grass and debris in the blood and cut due to the life and death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/zim...ive-photo-night-trayvon-martin-death-16178849

As GZ is going to the ground he is holding onto Trayvon pulling him down to the ground as well. If you didn't know any better and hadn't seen the beginning of the altercation, maybe you would think that Trayvon "was on top" beating someone up. I'm sure during this struggling there is hollering and yelling going on, which draws some attention. Now, IMO GZ is pizzed that this kid has had the audacity to defy his authority, remember...he was already angry that the a$$holes always get away and believed that Trayvon was a *advertiser censored**ing punk up to no good. Now...most important...Trayvon has absolutely NO idea who this guy is! GZ is the one with all the information! All Trayvon knows is some stranger was following him, he ran, he thought he'd lost him and then all the sudden the stranger reappears and tries to question him. For WHAT? WHY? I'm sure Trayvon was concerned, that might be putting it mildly. He has every right to try to get away from this stranger, using whatever means possible.

So...they struggle around, GZ thinks...well, I have my gun, if I pull it out maybe this kid will stop and just let me detain him. Again...GZ has all the info. Trayvon has no idea this stranger's intentions, this stranger has tried to restrict his freedom of movement, question him, and now this stranger pulls out a gun! IMO Trayvon is terrified. Now, not only has this stranger followed him, cut him off, questioned him, grabbed him, now he's pulled a gun! IMO Trayvon begins screaming for his life, terrified, struggling to get away. GZ struggles with him, he's angry that this criminal (in his mind) will not comply with his demands. His friend FT says he has fed up issues. He is fed up! He shoots Trayvon, ending the screams. He puts his hands on Trayvons back, probably pats him down, no weapons, no stolen property. Now he better come up with a story that he was in fear of his life because I think he clearly realizes that he has screwed up! Call my wife, tell her I've shot someone!

He is a CHL holder so he knows the law. This is some dead criminal, it will all blow over. I'll just say he attacked me, I was in fear for my life and I had to shoot him. Problem was, it was an unarmed, non criminal teenager who had parents that were not going to take it lying down and fought for justice. So here we are.

I hope I did that linking thing right. It doesn't look right to me and I can't ever seem to get it to work so please forgive me. I got the info from the Media Thread. All of the above is MY OPINION and my interpretation of what I have seen so far.
 
Thanks! and if I might add, a 2nd ambulance had been called for GZ but was sent back after the EMTs treated him for a few minutes in the patrol car and saw there were no serious injuries to his head....

Back to topic.....one possibility I haven't seen mentioned on the thread so far: suppose after receiving and reviewing the state's evidence, interviewing his client more and discovering the same discrepancies we have, and reviewing the witnesses statements and the 911 calls, MOM decides to stipulate to the state that it is Trayvon screaming.

I don't know if you're referring to something else, but I listened to the ambulance dispatch recording and it was clear to me that one of the two ambulances was turned back due to "no vitals." Imo, that would be for Trayvon. Would the ME's office (or whatever, I don't know the "lingo") have responded instead?. I did not hear or read that the second ambulance was cancelled, but may have missed that.
 
Thanks! and if I might add, a 2nd ambulance had been called for GZ but was sent back after the EMTs treated him for a few minutes in the patrol car and saw there were no serious injuries to his head....

Back to topic.....one possibility I haven't seen mentioned on the thread so far: suppose after receiving and reviewing the state's evidence, interviewing his client more and discovering the same discrepancies we have, and reviewing the witnesses statements and the 911 calls, MOM decides to stipulate to the state that it is Trayvon screaming.

Why would he ever do that?
 
Thanks! and if I might add, a 2nd ambulance had been called for GZ but was sent back after the EMTs treated him for a few minutes in the patrol car and saw there were no serious injuries to his head....

Back to topic.....one possibility I haven't seen mentioned on the thread so far: suppose after receiving and reviewing the state's evidence, interviewing his client more and discovering the same discrepancies we have, and reviewing the witnesses statements and the 911 calls, MOM decides to stipulate to the state that it is Trayvon screaming.

I think the likeliness of that happening are about the same as the state stipulating that it was GZ screaming. In other words - 0%. I have not seen any discrepencies to indicate that it was not GZ screaming.
 
While this scenario makes perfect sense and seems logical to some, to me, it sounds unbelievable and more than incredible. IMO the evidence does not support this version of events. And by evidence, I'm talking about GZ's stories, FT's stories, his brother's and his father's stories, the video of him at the jail, and the information about the call with Trayvon's girlfriend.

The fight described sounds very graphic and scary, the attacks GZ's friend, dad and brother describe sound horrific and scary. A 45 second fight, where you are literally getting the life beat out of you, would definitely leave some signs of this life and death struggle. Both parties would show these signs of this life and death struggle. Let's just address that first.

I don't know who has ever seen two men fighting before, struggling around on the ground. I've come upon it more than once, so this is my own opinion based on my observations from previous experience. Once these men have been seperated, there is disheveled clothing, hair all a mess, blood on each other's clothing, sometimes clothes are torn, sweat, heavy breathing, grass and dirt stains on clothing, sometimes people even lose shoes or pieces of clothing come off. These are not generally life and death struggles but a couple of people definitely trying to get the best of the other.

Now...we have this video of GZ at the police station at approximately what? 30 minutes after this life or death struggle, swallowing blood, having his head slammed into the concrete over and over until he was losing conciousness? Take a good look at that footage. His clothes appear dry and clean, not torn, certainly not disheveled in any way, his shirt is tucked in for goodness sake. He does not have ONE bandage on him, not even for the little bitty cut on the back of his head. Not even a bandaid. He is handcuffed behind his back and walks with no difficulty, climbs out of a squad car, maintains his balance, which is difficult for drunks to do so I would imagine it would be difficult for someone woozy from getting his head bashed into concrete repeatedly a mere 30 minutes or so before. He does not appear to be in distress, upset or in any way showing signs that a mere 30 minutes before he was not just in a fight but in a life or death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475

Ok, now why it is difficult to understand why Trayvon would be screaming. Well, that is also very simple IMO. You're absolutely right, it makes no sense to scream if you've got the upper hand, so IMO Trayvon did not have the upper hand. We will just have to agree to disagree on this front. I believe that those screams come from Trayvon. I will explain why I think John and this other witness (whose mother has said he was coerced by the way) describe seeing Trayvon on top. IMO I see the scenario as such...

I believe that GZ exited his vehicle, followed Trayvon, saw the direction he was going and knew that he could cut him off at the cut through further down between the townhomes. He hung up with the call taker and didn't give a location to meet the officers because he had every intention of heading him off, detaining him, and presenting him to the police like a trophy. In other words, playing the cop. Problem with that is that George is NOT a police officer in a uniform and does not have any authority to detain anyone. In fact, he is a STRANGER! So....he cuts Trayvon off at the cut through. I believe that Trayvon had stopped "walking fast, running" whatever, because he believed he had lost GZ. GZ steps out, hence the question from Trayvon, why are you following me? GZ, not in a police uniform with no authority, supposedly says what are you doing here. Followed by sounds of a push or something. IMO I believe that GZ reached out to grab Trayvon to detain him. Trayvon, rightly so, is frightened by this stranger and pushes or punches GZ, GZ falls back and hits the back of his head on something that creates that small cut on the back of his head in the picture. There may be another one a little higher up but hard to see since the photo is washed out. And note that this photo was 3 minutes after a shot that ended a life and death struggle, yet there is no grass, no mud, no dirt, no debris, nothing on his jacket or his head and the blood does not appear disturbed from it's path of flow and there is nothing like grass or anything else stuck in this wet, fresh blood. Not sure how that happened, considering he supposedly was getting smashed on the sidewalk and then moved his head to the grass. I would expect to see blood smeared, grass and debris in the blood and cut due to the life and death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/zim...ive-photo-night-trayvon-martin-death-16178849

As GZ is going to the ground he is holding onto Trayvon pulling him down to the ground as well. If you didn't know any better and hadn't seen the beginning of the altercation, maybe you would think that Trayvon "was on top" beating someone up. I'm sure during this struggling there is hollering and yelling going on, which draws some attention. Now, IMO GZ is pizzed that this kid has had the audacity to defy his authority, remember...he was already angry that the a$$holes always get away and believed that Trayvon was a *advertiser censored**ing punk up to no good. Now...most important...Trayvon has absolutely NO idea who this guy is! GZ is the one with all the information! All Trayvon knows is some stranger was following him, he ran, he thought he'd lost him and then all the sudden the stranger reappears and tries to question him. For WHAT? WHY? I'm sure Trayvon was concerned, that might be putting it mildly. He has every right to try to get away from this stranger, using whatever means possible.

So...they struggle around, GZ thinks...well, I have my gun, if I pull it out maybe this kid will stop and just let me detain him. Again...GZ has all the info. Trayvon has no idea this stranger's intentions, this stranger has tried to restrict his freedom of movement, question him, and now this stranger pulls out a gun! IMO Trayvon is terrified. Now, not only has this stranger followed him, cut him off, questioned him, grabbed him, now he's pulled a gun! IMO Trayvon begins screaming for his life, terrified, struggling to get away. GZ struggles with him, he's angry that this criminal (in his mind) will not comply with his demands. His friend FT says he has fed up issues. He is fed up! He shoots Trayvon, ending the screams. He puts his hands on Trayvons back, probably pats him down, no weapons, no stolen property. Now he better come up with a story that he was in fear of his life because I think he clearly realizes that he has screwed up! Call my wife, tell her I've shot someone!

He is a CHL holder so he knows the law. This is some dead criminal, it will all blow over. I'll just say he attacked me, I was in fear for my life and I had to shoot him. Problem was, it was an unarmed, non criminal teenager who had parents that were not going to take it lying down and fought for justice. So here we are.

I hope I did that linking thing right. It doesn't look right to me and I can't ever seem to get it to work so please forgive me. I got the info from the Media Thread. All of the above is MY OPINION and my interpretation of what I have seen so far.

BEM: This would require that he read the minds of the eyewitnesses and matched his statements to their's 30 minutes later.

The little boy saw one man on the ground, in a red shirt, which would negate GZ pulling Trayvon on top of him.

JMO
 
TM's dad has a deep voice, I wonder if TM voice was deep like his dads.IMO GZ is not deep at all. Most teens have their own voice on their message on cells,hopefully Le has that phone and TM recorded his own message.That is one way to hear what TM sounded like.IMO If the family has video's of TM if they think it really is him maybe they would release them for proof.
 
While this scenario makes perfect sense and seems logical to some, to me, it sounds unbelievable and more than incredible. IMO the evidence does not support this version of events. And by evidence, I'm talking about GZ's stories, FT's stories, his brother's and his father's stories, the video of him at the jail, and the information about the call with Trayvon's girlfriend.

The fight described sounds very graphic and scary, the attacks GZ's friend, dad and brother describe sound horrific and scary. A 45 second fight, where you are literally getting the life beat out of you, would definitely leave some signs of this life and death struggle. Both parties would show these signs of this life and death struggle. Let's just address that first.

I don't know who has ever seen two men fighting before, struggling around on the ground. I've come upon it more than once, so this is my own opinion based on my observations from previous experience. Once these men have been seperated, there is disheveled clothing, hair all a mess, blood on each other's clothing, sometimes clothes are torn, sweat, heavy breathing, grass and dirt stains on clothing, sometimes people even lose shoes or pieces of clothing come off. These are not generally life and death struggles but a couple of people definitely trying to get the best of the other.

Now...we have this video of GZ at the police station at approximately what? 30 minutes after this life or death struggle, swallowing blood, having his head slammed into the concrete over and over until he was losing conciousness? Take a good look at that footage. His clothes appear dry and clean, not torn, certainly not disheveled in any way, his shirt is tucked in for goodness sake. He does not have ONE bandage on him, not even for the little bitty cut on the back of his head. Not even a bandaid. He is handcuffed behind his back and walks with no difficulty, climbs out of a squad car, maintains his balance, which is difficult for drunks to do so I would imagine it would be difficult for someone woozy from getting his head bashed into concrete repeatedly a mere 30 minutes or so before. He does not appear to be in distress, upset or in any way showing signs that a mere 30 minutes before he was not just in a fight but in a life or death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475

Ok, now why it is difficult to understand why Trayvon would be screaming. Well, that is also very simple IMO. You're absolutely right, it makes no sense to scream if you've got the upper hand, so IMO Trayvon did not have the upper hand. We will just have to agree to disagree on this front. I believe that those screams come from Trayvon. I will explain why I think John and this other witness (whose mother has said he was coerced by the way) describe seeing Trayvon on top. IMO I see the scenario as such...

I believe that GZ exited his vehicle, followed Trayvon, saw the direction he was going and knew that he could cut him off at the cut through further down between the townhomes. He hung up with the call taker and didn't give a location to meet the officers because he had every intention of heading him off, detaining him, and presenting him to the police like a trophy. In other words, playing the cop. Problem with that is that George is NOT a police officer in a uniform and does not have any authority to detain anyone. In fact, he is a STRANGER! So....he cuts Trayvon off at the cut through. I believe that Trayvon had stopped "walking fast, running" whatever, because he believed he had lost GZ. GZ steps out, hence the question from Trayvon, why are you following me? GZ, not in a police uniform with no authority, supposedly says what are you doing here. Followed by sounds of a push or something. IMO I believe that GZ reached out to grab Trayvon to detain him. Trayvon, rightly so, is frightened by this stranger and pushes or punches GZ, GZ falls back and hits the back of his head on something that creates that small cut on the back of his head in the picture. There may be another one a little higher up but hard to see since the photo is washed out. And note that this photo was 3 minutes after a shot that ended a life and death struggle, yet there is no grass, no mud, no dirt, no debris, nothing on his jacket or his head and the blood does not appear disturbed from it's path of flow and there is nothing like grass or anything else stuck in this wet, fresh blood. Not sure how that happened, considering he supposedly was getting smashed on the sidewalk and then moved his head to the grass. I would expect to see blood smeared, grass and debris in the blood and cut due to the life and death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/zim...ive-photo-night-trayvon-martin-death-16178849

As GZ is going to the ground he is holding onto Trayvon pulling him down to the ground as well. If you didn't know any better and hadn't seen the beginning of the altercation, maybe you would think that Trayvon "was on top" beating someone up. I'm sure during this struggling there is hollering and yelling going on, which draws some attention. Now, IMO GZ is pizzed that this kid has had the audacity to defy his authority, remember...he was already angry that the a$$holes always get away and believed that Trayvon was a *advertiser censored**ing punk up to no good. Now...most important...Trayvon has absolutely NO idea who this guy is! GZ is the one with all the information! All Trayvon knows is some stranger was following him, he ran, he thought he'd lost him and then all the sudden the stranger reappears and tries to question him. For WHAT? WHY? I'm sure Trayvon was concerned, that might be putting it mildly. He has every right to try to get away from this stranger, using whatever means possible.

So...they struggle around, GZ thinks...well, I have my gun, if I pull it out maybe this kid will stop and just let me detain him. Again...GZ has all the info. Trayvon has no idea this stranger's intentions, this stranger has tried to restrict his freedom of movement, question him, and now this stranger pulls out a gun! IMO Trayvon is terrified. Now, not only has this stranger followed him, cut him off, questioned him, grabbed him, now he's pulled a gun! IMO Trayvon begins screaming for his life, terrified, struggling to get away. GZ struggles with him, he's angry that this criminal (in his mind) will not comply with his demands. His friend FT says he has fed up issues. He is fed up! He shoots Trayvon, ending the screams. He puts his hands on Trayvons back, probably pats him down, no weapons, no stolen property. Now he better come up with a story that he was in fear of his life because I think he clearly realizes that he has screwed up! Call my wife, tell her I've shot someone!

He is a CHL holder so he knows the law. This is some dead criminal, it will all blow over. I'll just say he attacked me, I was in fear for my life and I had to shoot him. Problem was, it was an unarmed, non criminal teenager who had parents that were not going to take it lying down and fought for justice. So here we are.

I hope I did that linking thing right. It doesn't look right to me and I can't ever seem to get it to work so please forgive me. I got the info from the Media Thread. All of the above is MY OPINION and my interpretation of what I have seen so far.
Just had to say - that is one hellofa great post.

Expressed just exactly how I too think it went down. :clap:

Well said. Bravo!
 
BEM: This would require that he read the minds of the eyewitnesses and matched his statements to their's 30 minutes later.

The little boy saw one man on the ground, in a red shirt, which would negate GZ pulling Trayvon on top of him.

JMO

I don't know what GZ told police 30 minutes later. I haven't seen his official statements only what he supposedly told his family members and his friend, who have shared with the world. I say he realizes he clearly screwed up because he shot an unarmed teen and only has a small, non life threatening cut on the back of his head to show for it.

We better get on topic before beach gets us! ;)
 
BEM: This would require that he read the minds of the eyewitnesses and matched his statements to their's 30 minutes later.

The little boy saw one man on the ground, in a red shirt, which would negate GZ pulling Trayvon on top of him.

JMO

It was raining so the ground and sidewalk were both wet. Trayvon tries to pull away from Zimmerman while Zimmerman holds onto him with one hand for dear life so the a-hole can't get away this time. In Zimmerman's other hand he has a gun pointed at Trayvon, making Trayvon struggle even more to get away and scream and plead for his life. During that life and death struggle where Trayvon is frantically trying to break free and not get shot Zimmerman loses his balance falling backwards taking Trayvon down with him. Trayvon falls on top of Zimmerman, Zimmerman still won't let go of Trayvon. Trayvon is still screaming and pleading for his life. At this point the kid with the dog sees Trayvon on top of Zimmerman even though it is Zimmerman that caused the fall by refusing to let go of Trayvon. The dog breaks free, runs off, the kid follows so he doesn't see the rest of the struggle. Zimmerman, having enough of this struggle shoots Trayvon and kills him.

There ya go. Just one possible way for it to be Trayvon screaming and pleading for his life, for Zimmerman to be fully responsible for the entire altercation and for Trayvon to be on top of Zimmerman at one point.

MOO
 
I don't know what GZ told police 30 minutes later. I haven't seen his official statements only what he supposedly told his family members and his friend, who have shared with the world. I say he realizes he clearly screwed up because he shot an unarmed teen and only has a small, non life threatening cut on the back of his head to show for it.

We better get on topic before beach gets us! ;)
One thing Gilbreath noted during his time on the stand was something to the effect of how there were numerous witnesses at the scene and he had no idea how much Zimmerman picked up from them.

I'll see if I can find it.
 
First, I will be snipping quite a bit. I'm after a few select statements and I do apologize if you find this out of order but having multiple people quote it makes little sense to me.

And by evidence, I'm talking about GZ's stories, FT's stories, his brother's and his father's stories, the video of him at the jail, and the information about the call with Trayvon's girlfriend.
I didn't know they were going to allow the 2nd, 3rd or 4th hand stories to be allowed into "evidence." If so, are the Martins also going to get to tell the story as they know it? It would only be fair. Also, you have to keep in mind that people can have misunderstandings. For example, BG said that Mr. Martin was sitting on the porch and Mr. Zimmerman just came up and shot him. She didn't understand something somewhere, obviously.

Once these men have been seperated, there is disheveled clothing, hair all a mess, blood on each other's clothing, sometimes clothes are torn, sweat, heavy breathing, grass and dirt stains on clothing, sometimes people even lose shoes or pieces of clothing come off. These are not generally life and death struggles but a couple of people definitely trying to get the best of the other.
If you ask me, this supports Mr. Zimmerman because he doesn't say they were rolling around on the ground trying to rip each others clothes off. He states he was hit, he fell to the ground, Mr. Martin was on top of him slamming his head into the cement, his mouth/nose was covered and Mr. Martin went for his weapon. To me it seems logical that there wouldn't be a whole lot of ripped clothes, etc, given the story as it's told.

He does not have ONE bandage on him, not even for the little bitty cut on the back of his head. Not even a bandaid.
After reviewing the enhanced photo, which is much more clear than the blurred video you linked, I still can't be sure there isn't a bandage. I see a smudge mark, but that could be indicative of a bandage that is full of blood and starting to drip. I do see two bump type anomalies slightly higher of those marks also. Without the reports I wouldn't say either way, personally.

Problem with that is that George is NOT a police officer in a uniform and does not have any authority to detain anyone.
Another problem is that the body was no where near the cut-through that you're speaking of. Whether you take Zimmerman's story or your own the body would've been near the cut-through if he "cut Martin off." Both stories have Mr. Zimmerman falling near the place that they met and the confrontation happened.

Trayvon, rightly so, is frightened by this stranger and pushes or punches GZ, GZ falls back and hits the back of his head on something that creates that small cut on the back of his head in the picture.
I'm not sure about you, but I watch a lot of "funny videos" where people fall down due to various things. Not very many videos do you see of people falling back as if they're doing a nose dive. Maybe if he lost consciousness after being hit and his body locked up, but he never states anything about actually losing consciousness from what I know. I don't know enough about the picture from 3 minutes after to speak of it confidently.

As GZ is going to the ground he is holding onto Trayvon pulling him down to the ground as well.
So now he's in a backwards nose dive (unconscious?), holding on to someone.. and his knees don't buckle? I don't buy it.

IMO Trayvon begins screaming for his life, terrified, struggling to get away.
I'm not going to fully speculate, but I think Mr. Martin was trying to get the weapon out of his hand based on the information I discussed earlier with another member here about a new round not being chambered. If he's trying to get the gun he's not trying to get away.
 
While this scenario makes perfect sense and seems logical to some, to me, it sounds unbelievable and more than incredible. IMO the evidence does not support this version of events. And by evidence, I'm talking about GZ's stories, FT's stories, his brother's and his father's stories, the video of him at the jail, and the information about the call with Trayvon's girlfriend.

The fight described sounds very graphic and scary, the attacks GZ's friend, dad and brother describe sound horrific and scary. A 45 second fight, where you are literally getting the life beat out of you, would definitely leave some signs of this life and death struggle. Both parties would show these signs of this life and death struggle. Let's just address that first.

I don't know who has ever seen two men fighting before, struggling around on the ground. I've come upon it more than once, so this is my own opinion based on my observations from previous experience. Once these men have been seperated, there is disheveled clothing, hair all a mess, blood on each other's clothing, sometimes clothes are torn, sweat, heavy breathing, grass and dirt stains on clothing, sometimes people even lose shoes or pieces of clothing come off. These are not generally life and death struggles but a couple of people definitely trying to get the best of the other.

Now...we have this video of GZ at the police station at approximately what? 30 minutes after this life or death struggle, swallowing blood, having his head slammed into the concrete over and over until he was losing conciousness? Take a good look at that footage. His clothes appear dry and clean, not torn, certainly not disheveled in any way, his shirt is tucked in for goodness sake. He does not have ONE bandage on him, not even for the little bitty cut on the back of his head. Not even a bandaid. He is handcuffed behind his back and walks with no difficulty, climbs out of a squad car, maintains his balance, which is difficult for drunks to do so I would imagine it would be difficult for someone woozy from getting his head bashed into concrete repeatedly a mere 30 minutes or so before. He does not appear to be in distress, upset or in any way showing signs that a mere 30 minutes before he was not just in a fight but in a life or death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475

Ok, now why it is difficult to understand why Trayvon would be screaming. Well, that is also very simple IMO. You're absolutely right, it makes no sense to scream if you've got the upper hand, so IMO Trayvon did not have the upper hand. We will just have to agree to disagree on this front. I believe that those screams come from Trayvon. I will explain why I think John and this other witness (whose mother has said he was coerced by the way) describe seeing Trayvon on top. IMO I see the scenario as such...

I believe that GZ exited his vehicle, followed Trayvon, saw the direction he was going and knew that he could cut him off at the cut through further down between the townhomes. He hung up with the call taker and didn't give a location to meet the officers because he had every intention of heading him off, detaining him, and presenting him to the police like a trophy. In other words, playing the cop. Problem with that is that George is NOT a police officer in a uniform and does not have any authority to detain anyone. In fact, he is a STRANGER! So....he cuts Trayvon off at the cut through. I believe that Trayvon had stopped "walking fast, running" whatever, because he believed he had lost GZ. GZ steps out, hence the question from Trayvon, why are you following me? GZ, not in a police uniform with no authority, supposedly says what are you doing here. Followed by sounds of a push or something. IMO I believe that GZ reached out to grab Trayvon to detain him. Trayvon, rightly so, is frightened by this stranger and pushes or punches GZ, GZ falls back and hits the back of his head on something that creates that small cut on the back of his head in the picture. There may be another one a little higher up but hard to see since the photo is washed out. And note that this photo was 3 minutes after a shot that ended a life and death struggle, yet there is no grass, no mud, no dirt, no debris, nothing on his jacket or his head and the blood does not appear disturbed from it's path of flow and there is nothing like grass or anything else stuck in this wet, fresh blood. Not sure how that happened, considering he supposedly was getting smashed on the sidewalk and then moved his head to the grass. I would expect to see blood smeared, grass and debris in the blood and cut due to the life and death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/zim...ive-photo-night-trayvon-martin-death-16178849

As GZ is going to the ground he is holding onto Trayvon pulling him down to the ground as well. If you didn't know any better and hadn't seen the beginning of the altercation, maybe you would think that Trayvon "was on top" beating someone up. I'm sure during this struggling there is hollering and yelling going on, which draws some attention. Now, IMO GZ is pizzed that this kid has had the audacity to defy his authority, remember...he was already angry that the a$$holes always get away and believed that Trayvon was a *advertiser censored**ing punk up to no good. Now...most important...Trayvon has absolutely NO idea who this guy is! GZ is the one with all the information! All Trayvon knows is some stranger was following him, he ran, he thought he'd lost him and then all the sudden the stranger reappears and tries to question him. For WHAT? WHY? I'm sure Trayvon was concerned, that might be putting it mildly. He has every right to try to get away from this stranger, using whatever means possible.

So...they struggle around, GZ thinks...well, I have my gun, if I pull it out maybe this kid will stop and just let me detain him. Again...GZ has all the info. Trayvon has no idea this stranger's intentions, this stranger has tried to restrict his freedom of movement, question him, and now this stranger pulls out a gun! IMO Trayvon is terrified. Now, not only has this stranger followed him, cut him off, questioned him, grabbed him, now he's pulled a gun! IMO Trayvon begins screaming for his life, terrified, struggling to get away. GZ struggles with him, he's angry that this criminal (in his mind) will not comply with his demands. His friend FT says he has fed up issues. He is fed up! He shoots Trayvon, ending the screams. He puts his hands on Trayvons back, probably pats him down, no weapons, no stolen property. Now he better come up with a story that he was in fear of his life because I think he clearly realizes that he has screwed up! Call my wife, tell her I've shot someone!

He is a CHL holder so he knows the law. This is some dead criminal, it will all blow over. I'll just say he attacked me, I was in fear for my life and I had to shoot him. Problem was, it was an unarmed, non criminal teenager who had parents that were not going to take it lying down and fought for justice. So here we are.

I hope I did that linking thing right. It doesn't look right to me and I can't ever seem to get it to work so please forgive me. I got the info from the Media Thread. All of the above is MY OPINION and my interpretation of what I have seen so far.

IMO, the problem I see in your scenario is that if all GZ wanted to do was detain TM then he could have just kept wrestling with him until the cops got there. It makes more sense to me that it became a life and death struggle at some point, perhaps when TM noticed GZ's gun and wrestling for control of the gun came into play. IMO, there is no reason for GZ to shoot TM except that he was in fear for his life. And to make this more on topic, I think both TM and GZ were screaming at some point and if they were fighting for control of the gun they both were in fear for their lives.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
 
I'm not going to fully speculate, but I think Mr. Martin was trying to get the weapon out of his hand based on the information I discussed earlier with another member here about a new round not being chambered. If he's trying to get the gun he's not trying to get away.

RSBM

You're right. If he's trying to get the gun he's not trying to get away. Instead what he is doing is trying to save his life, while screaming and pleading for his life.

MOO
 
RSBM

You're right. If he's trying to get the gun he's not trying to get away. Instead what he is doing is trying to save his life, while screaming and pleading for his life.
MOO

Can you please clarify for me what you mean by the bolded words. I've listened to that recording several times, and while I'll give you "screaming" for sounds that I would consider to be some kind of undifferentiated loud vocalization, I cannot hear any pleading whatsoever. For "the cries for help" title of this thread I'm going on the eyewitness who says that was George yelling for help. But honestly, I don't even clearly hear a "help" on the tape. And, in any case, I don't consider saying help to be pleading for one's life. To me, pleading for your life means begging the person who's about to kill you, not to. And I definitely didn't hear anything like that. But maybe that's not what you mean?
 
RSBM

You're right. If he's trying to get the gun he's not trying to get away. Instead what he is doing is trying to save his life, while screaming and pleading for his life.

MOO

BBM.

People keep using this phrase. Is there really a recording of someone screaming "Please don't kill me" or "Please don't shoot me!" I find it very confusing when embellishments like this are made.

This isn't meant as a personal attack on anyone as many folks, here on WS and elsewhere, keep using this phrase. Is there something I missed where someone "pleading for his life" can actually be heard on one of the tapes?
 
I have listened to that 911 call numerous times. For me, I do not hear "help" over and over. What I do hear is an anguished scream, a cry of complete terror, a cry that while it is not SAYING please don't, it is strongly suggested to the person that is doing harm to the one screaming. What I hear are cries that can be equal to someone begging and pleading to not be killed. I also stated in my post, as I always do unless I am linking to something, that it is MOO. I also heard ONE "help" right before the gunshot and that one "help" was not screamed as the other sounds were. To me, and my ears, that one "help" was done by someone completely different than the screams and appeared to be a "help" for the benefit of whoever was listening to the screams and so that person could later claim that they yelled "help" but no one did.

again MOO
 
It was raining so the ground and sidewalk were both wet. Trayvon tries to pull away from Zimmerman while Zimmerman holds onto him with one hand for dear life so the a-hole can't get away this time. In Zimmerman's other hand he has a gun pointed at Trayvon, making Trayvon struggle even more to get away and scream and plead for his life. During that life and death struggle where Trayvon is frantically trying to break free and not get shot Zimmerman loses his balance falling backwards taking Trayvon down with him. Trayvon falls on top of Zimmerman, Zimmerman still won't let go of Trayvon. Trayvon is still screaming and pleading for his life. At this point the kid with the dog sees Trayvon on top of Zimmerman even though it is Zimmerman that caused the fall by refusing to let go of Trayvon. The dog breaks free, runs off, the kid follows so he doesn't see the rest of the struggle. Zimmerman, having enough of this struggle shoots Trayvon and kills him.

There ya go. Just one possible way for it to be Trayvon screaming and pleading for his life, for Zimmerman to be fully responsible for the entire altercation and for Trayvon to be on top of Zimmerman at one point.

MOO

Just one person on the ground. I realize he changed his story after his mother lawyered up, and this interview with MG is nowhere to be found now, but he said what he said and he wasn't coerced.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZVMZs4X90Q&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZVMZs4X90Q&feature=related[/ame]

In a much more edited and, IMO, scripted interview, he still says "someone" laying on the ground and someone screaming. There would be no reason for the person NOT laying on the ground to be screaming, IMO.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AySYPMy1Ejw&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AySYPMy1Ejw&feature=related[/ame]

From the 13 year old boy's 911 call:
"Caller: "I saw a man laying on the ground screaming who needed help. I was going to go over there to try and help him, but my dog got off the leash, and I ran and got him, and I hurried around and down, and the screaming stopped."

GZ did not pull TM down to the ground with him. http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/20/911-calls-paint-picture-of-chaos-after-florida-teen-is-shot/
 
I have listened to that 911 call numerous times. For me, I do not hear "help" over and over. What I do hear is an anguished scream, a cry of complete terror, a cry that while it is not SAYING please don't, it is strongly suggested to the person that is doing harm to the one screaming. What I hear are cries that can be equal to someone begging and pleading to not be killed. I also stated in my post, as I always do unless I am linking to something, that it is MOO. I also heard ONE "help" right before the gunshot and that one "help" was not screamed as the other sounds were. To me, and my ears, that one "help" was done by someone completely different than the screams and appeared to be a "help" for the benefit of whoever was listening to the screams and so that person could later claim that they yelled "help" but no one did.

again MOO

Caller: "I don't know why. I think they are yelling 'help,' but I don't know. Just end someone quick, please."
Dispatcher: "Does he look hurt to you?"

Caller: "I can't see him. I don't want to go out there. I don't know what's going on."

Dispatcher: "So you think he's yelling help?"

Caller: "Yes. There's gunshots."
Caller: "I’m looking out my deck, and someone is screaming 'help,' and I don’t know. … I heard a bang. I’m looking out my window, out my backyard, and someone is yelling and screaming 'help.' "
Caller:" I know. I can't believe somebody's killed. He was saying help. Why didn't someone come out and help him?"

Dispatcher: "Listen, we don't know if they been killed ..."

Caller: "Yes, the person is dead, laying on the ground."

Dispatcher: "Just because he's laying on the ground don't mean he's passed. We have an ambulance on the way, and we are probably going to pick him up and take him to the hospital."

Caller: "I didn't see cause it was too dark, and I just heard people screaming 'help me, help me.'
Caller: "It was either that or a rock at the window or something else. The guy's yelling 'help,' and I'm not going to help."

Dispatcher: "So you can hear someone yelling for help?"

Caller: "I'm pretty sure the guy is dead out here. Holy s***"

Dispatcher: "OK, we have several people calling in. Anything else that you heard?"

Caller: "A guy yelling, 'help.' Oh, my God! There is a guy with a flashlight in the backyard now. I think there's flashlights and a guy. ... I don't know if that's a cop. "
Caller: "This is 911, correct? Police or medical. Someone is yelling two doors down from me, screaming, hollering 'help, help, help.' There is an elderly man that lives down there. I don't know. I heard a gunshot. I don't know if it would be ambulance."
Caller: "I don't know, ma'am, I'm standing at my back sliding glass door. I don't see anything but a flashlight shining around, but I did hear someone yelling 'help, help, help' or 'oh, my gosh' and something, then moaning and a boom, and I picked up the phone and called."
Caller: "I saw a man laying on the ground screaming who needed help. I was going to go over there to try and help him, but my dog got off the leash, and I ran and got him, and I hurried around and down, and the screaming stopped."

"When police put Zimmerman in the back of the cruiser, he said, "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me," according to the police report." LINK CNN

I think someone was yelling "help", JMO
.
 
This is the same boy whose mother has said that the SPD waited 5 days before contacting her son to interview him, yes? There is an interview with the mother of the 13 year old at the link below.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...ayvon-martin-shooting-wasnt-self-defense?lite

From that article:
The shooting occurred Feb. 26, and Brown's son called 911 to report it at the time. But police didn't seek to question him until March 2, Brown said. She wasn't home, so they returned March 5, meaning eight days passed before police actually questioned a key eyewitness.

"I was waiting every day for someone to come knocking on the door," she said.

Once they did, Brown alleged, police tried to lead her son to agree to certain assertions, such as the race of the person on the ground and what he was wearing. But the boy stuck to his insistence that he couldn't make out either because it was too dark.


Based on the above it appears to me that it could have been Trayvon on the ground, not Zimmerman. So at this point the 13 year old is not really a valuable witness since he admits he did not see much because of it being to dark. He also does not state that he heard a gunshot before the screams stopped. Does that mean that he did not hear one or that he just did not tell about it?

MOO
 
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