The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 11th -12th June - Trial Days 2 & 3 - Week 1

[UnfoldingTruth]

I understand totally.

I guess I'm trying to convince myself that it wasn't even more disturbing than what he confessed to :facepalm:

I can understand that too
.. I hate to think of just what really did occur there. Because I really do not believe the whole truth was told. and maybe never will be.

 

[Makara]

It's not in question. If the father's sperm carries the X chromosome, a female embryo is produced. If the sperm carries the Y chromosome, a male embryo is produced. Genes can influence whether a man is more likely to have more X chromosome or more Y chromosomes in his sperm, or a roughly even number of both.

http://www.science20.com/news_relea...genes_really_determine_baby_gender_says_study

And women only carry the X chromosome.

 

[itsthevibe]

Another thing I remember from today, Dr Milne said there was 'significant tissue loss on the left leg (shin) due to insect activity', in other words, insects are attracted to open wounds, sores or any other open cavity in a deceased body and feed on soft tissue. On Allison there appeared to be more activity on the left leg than is usually seen on a person with no prior injuries. Perhaps this could be the source of the 'blood in the car', perhaps a superficial injury whilst moving her?

Yes, that's what i thought too - I mentioned it yesterday but I don't blame you for not seeing every post! We are back to the situation of the early days with the board moving so fast, it is time consuming keeping up.

There was the injury on the left leg, and the left side of the chest, plus chin. This could all have occurred during dragging - into the car, out of the car, down the slope - on edges of things, on rocks etc. Then the decompositoon starts more severely on those areas.

One thing that just came to mind about forensics - we still haven't heard about the cleaning of the car etc. Maybe this will come out when NBC is questioned.

And I also recall going past the house, after GBC had just been arrested and the children removed and placed in the custody of their grandparents. I noticed there were quite a few police there, and another local reported later that they could see them with flourescents and the lights off in the house. I wonder if they found anything else inside the house? Nothing has been reported so far.

 

[itsthevibe]

We learned yesterday that there were witnesses plural to the screams.

There's been another nasty thought been rolling around in my head of late.
It's regarding children from homes of Domestic Violence. They learn pretty quickly how to "Lie Low" when an argument is in progress.
I have the feeling these children are "experienced." They have learned something about self preservation and how not to cross their father.
There is more to be said about this elsewhere. (When hand signals are mentioned and their unusually quiet demeanour.)

Yes, I am getting that feeling too, and what you describe is so true about what children can do if this is what is happening.

 

[itsthevibe]

Huge thanks to all the info gatherers today and every day-it's been a very tumultuous but informative day.

I believe that those poor girls 'knew' they couldn't tell the truth about what happened that night. GBC was the strict parent, he used hand signals and body signs languages to give the girls certain cues. This fact is mentioned I think in one of the documents (phill broom). Those kids were masterminded by their father in more ways than one, they were not free to ask GBC questions like normal kids - this was what they were used to though and I suspect those little distressed girls were told their truths about that night rather than being present. Sure they were home but seen and not heard until GBC was ready for the story.

Yes, well said, it could be longer term manipulation and emotional control. Some of the responses about Mummy and Daddy not fighting now make me think they came from a longer term practice of being trained to put on a good front.

 

[Makara]

Baden-Clay murder trial

Yahoo! 7June 11, 2014, 9:52 am

Prosecutors are saying Gerard Baden-Clay had the motive and opportunity to kill his wife Allison.

https://au.tv.yahoo.com/the-morning-show/video/watch/24209965/baden-clay-murder-trial/

 

[freedomfighter]

Thank you again for all the information from day 2. So heartbreaking.
I would like to ask - I'm pretty sure in jail they aren't allowed to have jewellery, not sure if this extends to wedding rings or not. GBC or his legal team would be planning what he would wear day by day and requesting it for him to put on before court. To have specifically asked for the wedding ring (or planned it with his team) shows a fair bit of calculation.

 

[freedomfighter]

The reason IMO your post is so significant is this: Sounds like you are talking about real depression as opposed to Anxiety or PND.
The very real depression you mention is when even the hair brush seems so unnaturally heavy that is hard to raise to your head.
Your thoughts run something like this: Is it really important to run a brush through my faraway hair? Uhhh the effort ....

This is NOT what Allison Baden Clay appears to have been suffering, despite those who might like to say otherwise. Far far faraway from it.

It is significant... not everyone suffers depression in the same way, though. There are some who still manage to go through the motions. It sounds like Allison was very concerned about keeping up with all the responsibilities she had, especially her children. I can't imagine her just up and leaving the children and killing herself when she put everything into their love and care.
I do agree it does sound more like anxiety was the real problem, though.

 

[freedomfighter]

There are two types of gloves commonly used. The pale, almost white ones, and the blue ones (Latex-free). People tend to use what fits them best. I have big hands and have difficulty getting the blue ones on (both types are available where I work - I'm not talking about sterile gloves in the operating theatre here, just ones to do messy stuff with). So I prefer the pale-coloured ones.

I suspect the Scene of Crime teams would have both available too. Don't know that for sure, but it would be reasonable assumption unless we hear otherwise.

now that I think about it, the gloves that I've always observed police and ambulance using in the last few years are all blue.

 

[freedomfighter]

Daddy was sick last night....why? .lack of sleep can make you look sick.

Kids are parrots all ears, eyes and questions. They'll trust and believe.

the problem is the jury don't know the children said they were debriefed later on.

Dad was sick last night... but GBC said he sleeps very soundly and wasn't aware of whether Allison slept in the bed or not... if he was up sick.. wouldn't he be aware?

 

[Strangeworld]

Thanks for reporting back Lazard. Your input is very much appreciated.

Below is a copy and paste of a post I made recently. It explains about the girls writing something on a piece of paper.



Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Bail Hearing Documents *No Discussion*


BBM.

According to Kellie Thomson GBC informed her that the note was written by his daughter. Yet both girls have denied this.

I so want to know what that note said!

I can't help wondering if that note had been written some time ago and Allison had kept it in her purse - a lovely reminder of the love her children had for her and a pick-me-up when she was having a hard day. It's the sort of thing my Mum would do. Maybe GBC knew about the note in her purse and tipped the contents of her purse out to find it that morning. Maybe he thought if he convinced the police one of his daughters wrote it that morning, it would further support that Allison wasn't 'well' in the days before she disappeared.

 

[Lazard]

No, Froglady I am with you, on the night of the 19th a daughter got up for a drink ...

To clarify, there is 2 references to a couch, first, when the eldest was born, Allison was suffering depression and spent significant time on the couch with her daughter playing on the ground in front of her or on the couch with her. The second reference is Allison was on the couch on the night of the 19th when the eldest daughter got up 5 mins after being tucked in and saw Allison on the couch watching tv.

Interestingly, the second daughter asked if she saw daddy after mummy and daddy tucked her in, she said mummy and daddy were watching tv on the couch, asked how she knew this, she said 'cause he said so'

 

[ozazure]

I'm not up to date apart from a few newspaper articles but I am glad to finally have the question of where the girls were that night. Of course that opens up more questions, did he leave them unattended, if not who came to look after them, was that an early bed time for them, if not were they drugged? Anyway, my thoughts that this murder was fantasised about vs carefully planned are further confirmed with their presence at home. If they were at Bwana's, it'd show a level of planning incongruent with much of what else happened.

 

[Seeking]

Thank you again for all the information from day 2. So heartbreaking.
I would like to ask - I'm pretty sure in jail they aren't allowed to have jewellery, not sure if this extends to wedding rings or not. GBC or his legal team would be planning what he would wear day by day and requesting it for him to put on before court. To have specifically asked for the wedding ring (or planned it with his team) shows a fair bit of calculation.

It probably depends on the prison, but I do believe that in at least some prisons the only piece of jewellery allowed is a wedding band.

It has been hard keeping up the posts as I had to catch up........a relief to be all caught up now! One poster mentioned EBC not crying but appearing upset at the court. Regardless of what she knows or doesn't know about the case, it must be incredibly difficult for her to deal with this whole situation. We have to remember also that she is an older person who may have medical problems. The lack of tears could be related to a particular unpleasant medical problem for instance. I do know a couple of people with this problem so it does exist.

I am looking forward to justice being done in this tragic case. A confession would be wonderful........... But I am not expecting it. My thoughts and prayers are very much with the girls and the Dickies, and all else who have been deeply hurt or confused by this horrid situation.

 

[Humdinger]

Is there a new thread yet?

 

[bikerchick]

I'm off to court this morning. Hopefully can check in later this morning.

 

[LadyBird1]

This thought also crossed my mind Froglady. From what I gather, Allison's daughter got up to get a drink of water about 15 minutes after she went to bed, sometime between 6:30pm and 7:00pm. So I'm wondering how GBC would have killed Allison and sustained the scratches and marks on his body in that short interval without disturbing the girls at all. Did he simply pick up a cushion or pillow and hold it over her face until she stopped breathing, but not without Allison putting up a God Almightly (albeit silent) fight in the process?

Have to admit, the thought passed through my mind also. This is regarding Allison in the lounge supposedly watching TV when Allison's daughter went out for a drink of water.
If she was sitting or lying down with her eyes closed, and the children passed by her, they would not be looking for either her breathing or pulse. She could appear to be asleep.
However somehow, sometime, somewhere, Allison sustained a (badly) cracked tooth. I have wondered if that happened as a result of trying to force Zoloft into her. Allison also sustained enough injuries to have caused blood to be in the car.
As I have mentioned earlier: just because she was at home, and just because there was an argument, and just because the children were at home; This does not equate to; "A murder could not possibly have occured in or around this house."
The children's interviews are enough to bring anyone to tears. They are so heart-rending pained and innocent. Together with a beautiful childlike trust. However there is something decidedly not right with the words they use. The most tell tale sign (to me) that something is amiss is the repeated phrase: "'Cause he said so."

 

[Radster]

Nigel and Olivia on the stand today .... should be interesting. Poker faces all 'round?

 

[Trooper]

Gerard's Barrister and the throwaway remark re Alison 'desperate' for a male child...straight from Gerards mouth, that one.. He started the affair right at the time when their third child was born, a girl, and Gerard, with his nutso fantasy of being a Baronet ( he would have to eradicate about 7 people first before that even got on the horizon, it only goes thru the eldest son ) which is one of the reasons NBC changed the family name from plain Clay to Baden-Clay in the remote hope of this eventuality. Only Gerard , with a son , could possibly remotely ridiculously make this claim.

It is one of the reasons why Alisons death was gazetted in Burke's Peerage ( and was labelled a murder from the start in that register, within hours of that Friday )

It must have been disappointing to the Defence that Alison hadn't expressed any of this nonsense to her close friends.. I bet it will be asked again of someone though..
I think... ( delving into the realms of sheer peculiarity) that Toni and Gerard had a little weird fantasy going on about this element also.. recalling his remark to Ben Bassingthwaite about how he would have to buy ( with what?? monopoly money? ) a larger car to haul his blended family around.. the 3 girls and the twin boys..

 

[BreakingNews]

Timing seems all wrong to me on several counts. If Allison left the hairdressers at 7pm, then how come she could put the kids to bed at 6.30-7pm? Same as the next morning - One girl was up at 6.30am, but GBC's texts to Allison said he was the only one up.

Then the girls say Pop & Aunt Liv arrived what seems to be much later than GBC stated.

If you tell lies, you get caught out! If you tell the truth, you don't have to think about your answers. They will always be consistent.

Those poor girls. Thank goodness for the Dickie family.