The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 7th July - Trial Day 15

[Anemone]

Is anyone able to tell me which day of the trial Mrs Dickie gave evidence? I'm interested in going back and re-reading.

It was on 16 June hootabelle (day4?)

 

[Anemone]

Just thinking about Allison's parents here - there must have been an awful lot of shocking information that came out about GBC and their daughter's marriage over the course of the last couple of years. Their feelings about this man must be very strong by now (and I don't mean in a good way), after hearing all the details about his dishonesty and infidelities - the droning on about Allison's illness and mental state during the trial must just top it off horribly, and I'm surprised they have been able to contain themselves while listening to it. They seem to have the sort of grace and class that no amount of money or family name can buy.

I couldn't agree with you more catswhiskers!:loveyou:

 

[Fluffykins]

I don't even know whether 14km or so is considered a very long walk/too far for someone to cover in one hit, or would some cover that distance in an average daily walk?

I think if someone was just going for a daily walk, and ESPECIALLY when you are going to be attending a conference the same day, you would be highly unlikely to walk for more than an hour. I guess if someone was hell bent on suicide, you would just be walking and walking and crying...and who knows where you would end up. I certainly don't think that happened.

Totally agree and no I wouldn't walk 14km in one hit. An hour or 6-7km is usually enough for me. And I do it in suburbs that have good footpaths and definitely in the daylight. As I said previously, after visiting Kholo Ck yesterday, I don't think Mt Crosby Rd lends itself for walking.

And if the defense is suggesting she was "under the influence" (zoloft/alcohol...ridiculous!), then my thoughts are she would have been stumbling and wandering. Not exactly power walking! I definitely don't believe for one minute she walked to Kholo Ck.

Surely at least one car would have spotted a distressed sucidal woman walking for 3 hours?!

<RSBM> & <BBM>

Yes, the idea of her walking 14km is unrealistic in so many ways.

GBC said she usually walked for 20-40 minutes. Going by this distance x time calculator:

http://pennypincherjournal.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/how-long-does-it-take-to-walk-x-miles.html

- she would have been used to walking 2.25 to 4.5 km, going at a purposeful walking speed.

For her to have covered an additional 10km, she would have, at the very least, had to stop and take a lengthy break at some point. 14km is not a distance anyone can cover without working up to it. The Walking Club of Victoria is careful to spell out its requirement for new walkers:

The level of experience and fitness is again dependant on the walk. All walks cover a distance of at least 10 km over a period of 3 to 4 hours, so walkers need to be capable of this level of walking.

http://www.walkingclubvic.org.au/for-everyone/equipment-and-experience.html

IMO 14km would have been a huge physical hurdle for her. It probably would have taken her at least five hours. That together with the likelihood (as suggested by the defence) of her walking aimlessly, being disoriented etc, says the whole idea of her walking 14km to suicide is simply pie in the sky.

 

[Freya1977]

And how do feel overnight? Do you wake up early morning feeling the need to walk 14kms and throw yourself of a bridge?

I also take an antidepressant at night before bed as I find that works best for me.

The defence are clutching at straws (or Crepe Myrtles)!!

Lol. Definitely no inclination to walk anywhere at 6:00am!

 

[Freya1977]

Same here when I used to be on it years ago, the lowest dose.
I took it at night before bed too because it made me feel nauseous and drowsy. It didn't have a stimulant effect on me either.
I guess we're all different.

I'm always rushed in the mornings and would just forget

 

[LadyBird1]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 2m
Byrne says is it possible she stayed up thinking about what had happened between her and Gerard. "The rawness had been opened up".#badenclay

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 2m
Byrne is reading from Allison's journal. "I don't want to be alone". He says she's up late, thinking. #badenclay

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 2m
Byrne: Leaves the house, after first placing Gerard's phone on the charger. #badenclay

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 2m
Byrne: What if she decides to go for a walk to clear her head. What if she decides to take a Zoloft? #badenclay

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 2m
Byrne says what if she goes on her normal walk, decides to walk a bit further. #badenclay
Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 1m
Byrne says maybe the Zoloft is absorbed, maybe we have Seratonin syndrome. #badenclay

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 1m
Byrne says maybe, somehow, she ends up in the river. Could have rendered her unconscious, maybe she drowned in the river. #badenclay

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 1m
Byrne says that's just one scenario. The jury may reject it. #badenclay

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 59s
Byrne says they should reject that Gerard, for no apparent reason, with no apparent means, violently killed his wife. #badenclay

I just PMSL with THAT one....I am sorry but if I was QC for the Defence - no way would I have EVER presented this scenario - the whole day for defence has just gone out the window. LOL HOW EMBARRASSING!

Thank-you JK673

Trying to understand the summation. I have added my thoughts to each point. Then tried to see it from somebody else's eyes. Looks a little loopy. IMO.



Byrne says is it possible she stayed up thinking about what had happened between her and Gerard. "The rawness had been opened up
Byrne is reading from Allison's journal. "I don't want to be alone". He says she's up late, thinking.

It's late, very late. After 01.00am in the morning. There a conferance early morning which Allison was preparing for. New hairdo all done and she's ready to roll. Only 5 hours to go, and no sleep yet due to the rawness, and the thinking. And more thinking.
"I dont want to be alone, so I will abandon my children, and walk out all alone into the dark night"

Byrne: Leaves the house, after first placing Gerard's phone on the charger.

"Must remember to put his phone on the charger before I go out all alone. Must be considerate enough so as not to wake him, as I reach across his body and plug it in."

Byrne: What if she decides to go for a walk to clear her head. What if she decides to take a Zoloft?

"Feel the need to clear head, pop a Zoloft from my packet of Zoloft that I carry in my pocket"

<modsnip> This is a critical time. And where is the empty Zoloft packet?

Byrne says what if she goes on her normal walk, decides to walk a bit further.

Normal walk! There never was a normal walk.
Allison was not a regular walker, or even a walker at all, as evidenced by two websleuthers who live right close by, even passing her house, and ARE regular walkers. These witnesses have NEVER seen Allison out walking. Allison's friends said the same thing. Allison's idea of exercise was with a bar of chocolate in one hand, and the walking machine in the other ...
BTW Aside from self: People who are walkers recognize people and things that car drivers do not.

Byrne says maybe the Zoloft is absorbed, maybe we have Seratonin syndrome.

<modsnip> Seratonin Syndrone has been explained by Doc Watson, a professional person with expertise in medical and surgical matters. Zoloft doesn't work like that, full stop.

Byrne says maybe, somehow, she ends up in the river. Could have rendered her unconscious, maybe she drowned in the river.

Somehow, good word, especially in fairy stories. Drowning was ruled out on autopsy. Allison did not drown.
Ended up in the river? Left home after 01.30am and walked a 6 to 8 hour walk. G reckons he woke at 06.00am. Excluding the fact that G is a proven liar, the simple maths don't add up.

Byrne says that's just one scenario. The jury may reject it.

One scenario. The only scenario? The jury may reject it. The jury are trying hard to see something resembling sense and sensibility..

Byrne says they should reject that Gerard, for no apparent reason, with no apparent means, violently killed his wife.

No apparent reason ..... quietly omitting Gerard's severe financial crisis. (I note he doesn't say that G couldn't run a chook raffle successfully. And has always relied on using other people's money. Allison's included)
No apparent means: Doesn't use words like "no means."
Violently killed? Is killing by smothering violent or non violent? Whether violent, semi violent or even polite the end result is dead by killing.

I just PMSL with THAT one....I am sorry but if I was QC for the Defence - no way would I have EVER presented this scenario - the whole day for defence has just gone out the window. LOL HOW EMBARRASSING!

 

[royster]

Thanks everyone for the comments re walking 14k's. I hope Fuller wipes the floor with the scenario of Allison walking 14k to jump off a bridge. I hope he just does one of those "movie " moments tomorrow actually - where it's so good it's unbelievable! Corny I know but GBC needs to know he is a cooked goose tomorrow and that he has FINALLY met his match! IMO

 

[Anemone]

Just thinking about Allison's parents here - there must have been an awful lot of shocking information that came out about GBC and their daughter's marriage over the course of the last couple of years. Their feelings about this man must be very strong by now (and I don't mean in a good way), after hearing all the details about his dishonesty and infidelities - the droning on about Allison's illness and mental state during the trial must just top it off horribly, and I'm surprised they have been able to contain themselves while listening to it. They seem to have the sort of grace and class that no amount of money or family name can buy.

I couldn't agree with you more catswhiskers!:loveyou:

 

[sosocurious]

So the suggestion is that Allison took her meds at 10 to 11pm, got into her walking gear, put the phone on charge at 1.48am and then walked to Kholo Creek.

Didn't GBC say in his police interview that there was evidence that Allison had slept in the bed. When exactly did she do this GBC?

 

[they'll get you]

I'd like to tell alioop and Dr Watson how invaluable your knowledge has been during this trial.

Thank you both.

 

[marlywings]

Back on topic now thanks everyone.

We do not discuss other members in the thread.

 

[they'll get you]

What a terrible thing to add the joyous birth of this little boy into this story and make his birth a reason why his Aunty may have taken her life. Talk about damaging kids from the day of their birth. I believe that Allison would have been excited about the birth of this little boy and since her youngest was now 5 the whole not having a son would have been well passed over by the fact that she herself had 3 gorgeous little girls to teach to dance!!!!

To win an argument by bringing little kiddies into it is absolutely despicable. THIS IS CHILD ABUSE!

 

[Makara]

He said they went on to discuss intimate details of where the accused had sex with his mistress in the days that followed.

“There had been, despite Ms Ritchie’s best intentions, confrontational questioning of Gerard Baden-Clay on the 18th and follow-up questions on the 19th of that affair,” Mr Byrne said.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/q...-1226979525605

BBM: Didn't GBC state under cross examinatiion that he and Allison did NOT discuss the affair on 19 April?

 

[Amee]

He also dismissed the testimony of several forensic experts who said marks on Baden-Clay's face looked like fingernail scratches.

Mr Byrne said none of the experts could rule out 100 per cent that they were 'shaving scrapes' from a blunt razor.

The barrister ridiculed claims his client had killed his wife because of financial pressure or plans to leave his wife.

Mr Byrne is expected to conclude his address on Tuesday morning before the prosecution delivers its final remarks

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2682603/Wife-jumped-bridge-court.html#ixzz36mHGGwij

 

[missfisher]

I know! Talk about stereotypes! Hope he is always fortunate enough that his partner doesn't want/have to work if/when he has a family. Because he/she is going to have a crap life if he has those thoughts on "mummy duties"

Unless he's a late starter, I think hisfamily is probably grown up..

 

[they'll get you]

Wow!! I have also been thinking about J. Frosts statement where she says that the affair of GBC and TM had progressed to the point where he was staying at hers until the early morning hours (words to that effect sorry) - obviously this was before Allison found out in 2011, but IMO it probably wasn't unusual for the car to be coming and going in the night, so the girls probably wouldn't notice it any more, nothing unusual.

NBC was watching the children (supposedly) the night before and drove out when the children were in bed after GeRed and Allison got home, I doubt they woke up.

 

[possumheart]

For Allison tonight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Utkr8LSdc&sns=em

 

[Amee]

He said they went on to discuss intimate details of where the accused had sex with his mistress in the days that followed.

&#8220;There had been, despite Ms Ritchie&#8217;s best intentions, confrontational questioning of Gerard Baden-Clay on the 18th and follow-up questions on the 19th of that affair,&#8221; Mr Byrne said.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/q...-1226979525605

BBM: Didn't GBC state under cross examinatiion that he and Allison did NOT discuss the affair on 19 April?

He said he and wife put the children to bed and then sat down to discuss the day and their plans for the following night.

He said she asked about how he celebrated his Ms McHugh's birthdays.

"I said I couldn't remember one," he said.

"The other question was, 'Do you regret the whole thing, or just being caught?' I repeated to her what I had said the night before.

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...y-12-week-4-20140630-3b2vi.html#ixzz36mIawyo4

 

[Anemone]

Thank-you JK673

Trying to understand the summation. I have added my thoughts to each point. Then tried to see it from somebody else's eyes. Looks a little loopy. IMO.



Byrne says is it possible she stayed up thinking about what had happened between her and Gerard. "The rawness had been opened up
Byrne is reading from Allison's journal. "I don't want to be alone". He says she's up late, thinking.

It's late, very late. After 01.00am in the morning. There a conferance early morning which Allison was preparing for. New hairdo all done and she's ready to roll. Only 5 hours to go, and no sleep yet due to the rawness, and the thinking. And more thinking.
"I dont want to be alone, so I will abandon my children, and walk out all alone into the dark night"

Byrne: Leaves the house, after first placing Gerard's phone on the charger.

"Must remember to put his phone on the charger before I go out all alone. Must be considerate enough so as not to wake him, as I reach across his body and plug it in."

Byrne: What if she decides to go for a walk to clear her head. What if she decides to take a Zoloft?

"Feel the need to clear head, pop a Zoloft from my packet of Zoloft that I carry in my pocket"

<modsnip> This is a critical time. And where is the empty Zoloft packet?

Byrne says what if she goes on her normal walk, decides to walk a bit further.

Normal walk! There never was a normal walk.
Allison was not a regular walker, or even a walker at all, as evidenced by two websleuthers who live right close by, even passing her house, and ARE regular walkers. These witnesses have NEVER seen Allison out walking. Allison's friends said the same thing. Allison's idea of exercise was with a bar of chocolate in one hand, and the walking machine in the other ...
BTW Aside from self: People who are walkers recognize people and things that car drivers do not.

Byrne says maybe the Zoloft is absorbed, maybe we have Seratonin syndrome.

<modsnip> Seratonin Syndrone has been explained by Doc Watson, a professional person with expertise in medical and surgical matters. Zoloft doesn't work like that, full stop.

Byrne says maybe, somehow, she ends up in the river. Could have rendered her unconscious, maybe she drowned in the river.

Somehow, good word, especially in fairy stories. Drowning was ruled out on autopsy. Allison did not drown.
Ended up in the river? Left home after 01.30am and walked a 6 to 8 hour walk. G reckons he woke at 06.00am. Excluding the fact that G is a proven liar, the simple maths don't add up.

Byrne says that's just one scenario. The jury may reject it.

One scenario. The only scenario? The jury may reject it. The jury are trying hard to see something resembling sense and sensibility..

Byrne says they should reject that Gerard, for no apparent reason, with no apparent means, violently killed his wife.

No apparent reason ..... quietly omitting Gerard's severe financial crisis. (I note he doesn't say that G couldn't run a chook raffle successfully. And has always relied on using other people's money. Allison's included)
No apparent means: Doesn't use words like "no means."
Violently killed? Is killing by smothering violent or non violent? Whether violent, semi violent or even polite the end result is dead by killing.

I just PMSL with THAT one....I am sorry but if I was QC for the Defence - no way would I have EVER presented this scenario - the whole day for defence has just gone out the window. LOL HOW EMBARRASSING!

Thank-you JK673

Trying to understand the summation. I have added my thoughts to each point. Then tried to see it from somebody else's eyes. Looks a little loopy. IMO.



Byrne says is it possible she stayed up thinking about what had happened between her and Gerard. "The rawness had been opened up
Byrne is reading from Allison's journal. "I don't want to be alone". He says she's up late, thinking.

It's late, very late. After 01.00am in the morning. There a conferance early morning which Allison was preparing for. New hairdo all done and she's ready to roll. Only 5 hours to go, and no sleep yet due to the rawness, and the thinking. And more thinking.
"I dont want to be alone, so I will abandon my children, and walk out all alone into the dark night"

Byrne: Leaves the house, after first placing Gerard's phone on the charger.

"Must remember to put his phone on the charger before I go out all alone. Must be considerate enough so as not to wake him, as I reach across his body and plug it in."

Byrne: What if she decides to go for a walk to clear her head. What if she decides to take a Zoloft?

"Feel the need to clear head, pop a Zoloft from my packet of Zoloft that I carry in my pocket"

<modsnip> This is a critical time. And where is the empty Zoloft packet?

Byrne says what if she goes on her normal walk, decides to walk a bit further.

Normal walk! There never was a normal walk.
Allison was not a regular walker, or even a walker at all, as evidenced by two websleuthers who live right close by, even passing her house, and ARE regular walkers. These witnesses have NEVER seen Allison out walking. Allison's friends said the same thing. Allison's idea of exercise was with a bar of chocolate in one hand, and the walking machine in the other ...
BTW Aside from self: People who are walkers recognize people and things that car drivers do not.

Byrne says maybe the Zoloft is absorbed, maybe we have Seratonin syndrome.

<modsnip> Seratonin Syndrone has been explained by Doc Watson, a professional person with expertise in medical and surgical matters. Zoloft doesn't work like that, full stop.

Byrne says maybe, somehow, she ends up in the river. Could have rendered her unconscious, maybe she drowned in the river.

Somehow, good word, especially in fairy stories. Drowning was ruled out on autopsy. Allison did not drown.
Ended up in the river? Left home after 01.30am and walked a 6 to 8 hour walk. G reckons he woke at 06.00am. Excluding the fact that G is a proven liar, the simple maths don't add up.

Byrne says that's just one scenario. The jury may reject it.

One scenario. The only scenario? The jury may reject it. The jury are trying hard to see something resembling sense and sensibility..

Byrne says they should reject that Gerard, for no apparent reason, with no apparent means, violently killed his wife.

No apparent reason ..... quietly omitting Gerard's severe financial crisis. (I note he doesn't say that G couldn't run a chook raffle successfully. And has always relied on using other people's money. Allison's included)
No apparent means: Doesn't use words like "no means."
Violently killed? Is killing by smothering violent or non violent? Whether violent, semi violent or even polite the end result is dead by killing.

I just PMSL with THAT one....I am sorry but if I was QC for the Defence - no way would I have EVER presented this scenario - the whole day for defence has just gone out the window. LOL HOW EMBARRASSING!

I was so heartened to read your post LadyBird after a very frustrating day in court today. Sadly I didn't manage to meet up with other WS members for various reasons, but somehow ended up in the main court, much to my disbelief. I got there at 8.00am and there weren't as many people there as I'd imagined. I'd fully intended to go to the Banco Room, but got my little yellow ticket and had a seat for the day. So if any of you are considering going in tomorrow, I suggest you do!

I was gobsmacked at how long the defense barrister went on for - all day! :gaah: I'd fully expected to see the prosecution present their summary, as well as Justice Byrne all in the one day. Some parts were downright boring, others plainly misleading. I left feeling despondent and very let down and incredibly sad at the image portrayed of Allison. I have to say, whoever is paying for Gerrred's defense, he did a good job today with not a lot to work with.:facepalm: Who is paying for his defense, I'm not sure.

I know the WS code of practice doesn't allow what I enjoyed most about being in court today, which is observing the players - the barristers, the accused, his family and the deceased's family. I wasn't disappointed in that regard but left with concern how much the jury really know (not a quarter of what we do) and we're left trusting in their common sense and power of rational deduction for the outcome. I could say more about their demeanour but don't think that's allowed here.

Due to my disappointment today, not only the content but with only a third of what I went in to hear being covered, I am left with no alternative but now will HAVE TO go in again tomorrow and take another day's leave off work! I really want to hear Fuller give his summary, but more than that am keen to hear Justice Byrne give his summary and direction to the jury. I've always thought this will dictate the way the verdict ultimately goes.

It's been such a long road for all the family members involved, and those of us who've followed it closely for over two years. One thing that has really struck me on this journey though, is the effect Allison has had on so so many people. Friendships have been forged across Australia as a result of this tragedy, and people in similar circumstances or who relate to her for whatever reason have come together. This was brought up today in court by members of Allison's own family who are salt-of-the-earth and very unassuming, and are incredulous that people have been so moved by her death. This I believe is Allison's legacy, no matter what the outcome of the trial.

 

[HoolyDooly]

I just could not understand how Byrne for the DT could get away with saying a lot of things I read today on breaks at work that to me were thin in substance/evidence at best. For example that Allison drowned? Was that not shown to be untrue? I also caught that he said to the jury in effect, don't be swayed by the media hype. Where on one hand that sounds fair enough, on the other hand depending on delivery that my be seen as condescending to a jury member. JMO

You all have wonderful posts - a lot to read through tonight! I must say much I appreciate your sincere and well considered points, good job ALL

As I have Said previously....Let's hope the Todd-ster can bring it home well as he, to my way of thinking, speaks on Allison's behalf, and all power to his arm !