The Crown v Gerard Baden-Clay, 9th July - Trial Day 17

[Tishy]

Maybe someone has IBS or a weak bladder...just saying

Not sure I like the Tena of this conversation lol

 

[Makara]

I'm still way behind but I agree and I think they have more up their purple sleeves!

 

[ollijack]

Now only Justice for Allison - nothing more!

How pretty they are


The pretty flowers didn't come up

 

[emirates1957]

If GBC is found to be guilty - how long would it take to charge NBC. Would this happen immediately?

 

[drsleuth]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · now

The judge is now referring to Gerard's evidence. #badenclay

Judge says Gerard denied killing his wife, said he got the cuts on his face shaving, gave other explanations for other injuries. #badenclay

Judge is talking about Gerard's evidence on his wife's mental health, his affair. #badenclay

Judge says Gerard and Toni "always" recommenced their physical relationship. #badenclay

 

[PrimeSuspect]

David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 1m
Accused testified he did not kill his wife, had never been scratched by her, cut himself shaving - Justice Byrne

Justice Byrne is going through Gerard's evidence



:whistle:

 

[MRSA]

Does anybody else like the Tena of this conversation?

Depends.

 

[drsleuth]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 18s

Judge says Gerard and Allison attended counselling while he was having the affair. Gerard did not mention it. #badenclay

Judge is summarising Gerard's evidence about the business, the partners, moving to a new premises. #badenclay

 

[marlywings]

Hmmm, this got me thinking.

It doesn't seem like GBC was going with the suicide theory first up?
Or did he say no because it sounds like he's in denial because Allison was suicidal which he will later say?
Or is this theory put forward by GBC family members?
Was the suicide angle only suggested after Allison's body was found?

What do you all think?

I think there may have been some pre-planning happening in the days prior to Allison's murder.

I think he was always going to go with the suicide angle but a few things got in the way. He may have planned on dumping the Captiva somewhere but his plans failed. I also tend to think he may have even gone out to Kholo at some stage to check out a dumping ground.

 

[Amee]

3:40pm: Court has resumed.

Justice Byrne has turned his attention to the notion of intent.

"You cannot use his disposal of her body - if that is what he did - as supplying proof of an intention to kill his wife," he said.

"Before you may use the accused's conduct as tending to prove an implied admission of either element, you must first be satisfied that the conduct is not explicable on some other, unrelated basis."

Read more: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...y-17-week-5-20140709-3bluf.html#ixzz36wnaRPEL

 

[PrimeSuspect]

If GBC is found to be guilty - how long would it take to charge NBC. Would this happen immediately?

I don't think they have any evidence on anyone else. jmo But it's a good possibility GBC had help, so unless he spills the beans......

 

[BJsleuth]

He should have just said they were scratches after an arguement re Toni, A slept on the couch, then must have been out walking when he woke up, but he raised the alarm early given the fight last night. Ie A was so angry and never normally lashes out etc.

:floorlaugh:

Maintain your poise Tishy!

Not sure I like the Tena of this conversation lol

 

[Stick]

Anyone else feel that Judge Byrne has really been paying attention? Did someone order a fine-toothed comb?

If *I* did something terrible, I'd hate to come up against Fuller and in front of (Judge) Byrne.

 

[drsleuth]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 31s

The judge is talking about Gerard's evidence on borrowing $90,000 from each of his three friends. #badenclay

Judge is referring to Gerard getting back together with Toni for the sake of the business. #badenclay

Judge is referring to evidence on Allison discovering the affair. #badenclay

Judge says Gerard broke things off with Toni, said she was furious, threw things. #badenclay

 

[Smegal]

Hmmm, this got me thinking.

It doesn't seem like GBC was going with the suicide theory first up?
Or did he say no because it sounds like he's in denial because Allison was suicidal which he will later say?
Or is this theory put forward by GBC family members?
Was the suicide angle only suggested after Allison's body was found?

What do you all think?

Yep I absolutely think that he was going with the random stranger attack to begin with. This is based on him saying Allison wasn't suicidal and was in a good frame of mind, and he where he left her body.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I think there may have been some pre-planning happening in the days prior to Allison's murder.

I think he was always going to go with the suicide angle but a few things got in the way. He may have planned on dumping the Captiva somewhere but his plans failed. I also tend to think he may have even gone out to Kholo at some stage to check out a dumping ground.

I agree Marly, things didn't go to plan, and GBC has even described himself as having the Plan a,b,c strategy, while on the stand. Allison fighting hard and leaving gouges on his face certainly blew it all apart!

 

[drsleuth]

Kate Kyriacou @KateKyriacou · 35s

The judge is detailing Gerard's evidence on Allison's reaction, insisting on checking his phone, the curfew. #badenclay

Judge is detailing Gerard's evidence on getting back together with Toni after Allison found out about the affair. #badenclay

Judge says Allison was unaware that he was continuing the affair. Gerard would delete call history from his mobile phone. #badenclay

 

[PrimeSuspect]

David Murray ‏@TheMurrayD 46s
Gerard is sitting still in the dock as Justice John Byrne summarises his four days of evidence

 

[Susan12]

Me again The man many of you love to hate!

Kidding aside, while my opinion on the likely verdict hasn't changed, if he is indeed convicted I will say that I will lose no sleep over it whatsoever. Furthermore I was earlier concerned about a potential appealable error but after hearing more, my fears have been allayed. I'd still expect an appeal of course, it is almost inevitable in cases with mandatory life imprisonment but nothing absolutely stands out as reason for worry (in my non verified expert opinion).

I am however particularly concerned with the Crown's failure to adequately address how the blood came to be in the Captiva and the lack of plant material present. It is my (again, non verified expert) belief that the Crown's case becomes defective if they cannot establish that Alison was bundled into the Captiva postmortem and driven out to where she was ultimately discovered. The Crown did not (could not?) offer, at least to me, a reasonable and logical explanation as to how Allison's blood came to be in the car. There were no obvious wounds which would be consistent with what appears to be a not insignificant amount of blood, I guess one could make the argument that it could have been a facial wound which from what I can gather, would have been hard to identify after her discovery but even this possibility was not raised. As for the lack of plant material, the Crown has conceded that there was no evidence of a clean up and offered only the positioning of the toys as "odd".

Given that nobody heard or saw GBC leaving their residence, in transit to KCB, at the scene itself or returning home it must surely mean that Crown relies exclusively on the Captiva evidence which I fear is lacking to the extent that it is likely the undoing of the Crown case.

Quickly before court once again resumes, I have 2 questions that I would invite opinion on.

1. Why was Kholo Creek chosen when there are numerous secluded and rugged areas closer to the BC residence which are accessed along much less heavily trafficed roads? I am not a local but I do know the area fairly well, there are numerous areas within perhaps a 10 minute radius where a body may never even be found. It is odd that he took the chance to travel perhaps twice that distance, along much busier roads.

2. The prosecution alleges that Allison was dragged down an embankment, placed on a ledge and rolled off. Why is this the case when, not 20 metres away, GBC could have stopped the car momentarily on the bridge, removed Allison from the boot and thrown her into the middle of the river which at the time was within an hour either side of high tide and so would have been likely to sweep Allison's body away into the Brisbane River as the tide ebbed, possibly never to be seen again. Not only would this seem (to me) to be the most obvious and efficient method, it would have taken mere seconds whereas physically taking her down the embankment, at least partially, must have taken some minutes (not to mention greatly increasing the chance of GBC dragging some evidence of being in that location back into the car with him). The only possible reason that I can come up with, and I feel like I'm grasping at straws in the context of the evidence, is that he wanted her found which would indicate obvious premeditation and scope for perhaps a harsher penalty than the 15 year minimum which (in my opinion only) would seem likely otherwise.

Re the blood in the car, the Crown don't have to prove how or why it got there. They just have to convince the jury that the only reasonable explanation for that much blood being in that location in a car they'd had for only 8 weeks that it was due to foul play and injury to her. This is why they asked GBC about any injuries she had acquired or any complaints about bleeding in the new car. It's also why they went into the toys not having been in the car the day before, and no reasonable reason for her to have put the toys in the car that night after getting home late from the hairdresser, that there was a cover-up of evidence in play related to that car. That links to the blood being suspicious too. So they did cover that.

Re your question 1. I think he wanted the body gone from the Brookfield area or close surrounds because that more closely links to him and the house. It's also the area they'd search for her first, not so far as Mt Crosby. If that kayaker hadn't been down the creek it still wouldn't have been found. He'd hoped that her body would never be found so tried to put it somewhere less likely to be found and there were so many SES all over Brookfield. Also gives more time for decomposition. I think the theory of suicide came later and perhaps he wished he'd left the body close in hindsight as the distance makes an accident or suicide less likely.

Re 2. He wouldn't have wanted to stop on the bridge. For starters it's a single lane and if a car came up you'd block them and draw attention. Stopped on the side of the road a car could see you and remember to tell police. I know the area too and it's not that quiet you could assume no car would come. Also if a car came past while you were pulling the body out of the car that's not good either. The other part where he went was more hidden. Definitely you'd do it hidden. Plus throwing off that ledge meant it was under the bridge not beside the bridge as if it was rolled off the top, more hidden.

As Fuller said, people are not supposed to be picking at evidence so individually and up close like dots on a TV screen. They are supposed to be stepping back and looking at the whole picture. All of these things just happening to come together in the one period of time? No. Guilty.

 

[Amee]

if/when GBC is found guilty whats his reaction going to be?

Im sick of seeing his face when doing updates, but Id love to see it just once more moo