The Duct Tape Match #2

[fortytwo]

I can post pics now! Not sure I did this right, but as I said in another post...if WE have Henkel duct tape, it must be VERY common LOL We live 30 minutes from the Anthony's...who knows...we may even shop at the same Home Depot. IMO, There is no way anyone is tearing this tape with their bare hands or teeth. Need scissors or a knife...it's really tough.

Here's an old post (three months ago) from a WSer who owned some of the infamous tape. For some reason I can't find the earlier one.

In a later post it is mentioned that the tape was purchased in "pre-hurricane display" at a local Home Depot.

 

[fortytwo]

42-I'm not always the brightest bulb in the box, but I thought poster CP was telling us that THE Henkle Duct Tape found on Caylee's body AND on the
A's gas can was Very Rare!!!

(P.S.-H was Here but for a Fleeting Moment...only to get his nose stuck firmly in the corner once again!) Argh!

Yes. Poster CP was telling us that.

I was disagreeing.



We have evidence that at least at some point in the recent past someone walked into a Home Depot in Orlando and pulled a roll off of a display.

This doesn't fit the profile of "very rare" or special use as far as our interests are concerned.

Please understand, I hate it as much as anyone, but it doesn't do any good to deny the facts.

 

[Ripley007]

Yes. Poster CP was telling us that.

I was disagreeing.



We have evidence that at least at some point in the recent past someone walked into a Home Depot in Orlando and pulled a roll off of a display.

This doesn't fit the profile of "very rare" or special use as far as our interests are concerned.

Please understand, I hate it as much as anyone, but it doesn't do any good to deny the facts.

Like I said...I ain't always that bright...spell it out for me. I THOUGHT CP was telling us that the Duct Tape found around Caylee and on the A's gas can was VERY RARE. This would be a good thing. Right? What am I missing/overlooking? TIA.

Just Re-read your post. OK. Do we have a name for the person who found this Duct Tape readily available at HD in Orlando? And EVEN IF a surplus of this marked Henkel Tape was readily available, what does that change? Seems to me, it simply shows it was POSSIBLE for an Orlando citizen to purchase.

 

[fortytwo]

Like I said...I ain't always that bright...spell it out for me. I THOUGHT CP was telling us that the Duct Tape found around Caylee and on the A's gas can was VERY RARE. This would be a good thing. Right? What am I missing/overlooking? TIA.

You're doing just fine. Not missing or overlooking anything.

It would certainly be a "Good Thing" if the Henkel duct tape could be shown to be exceeding rare and difficult to obtain.

This is indeed what CP was trying to tell us.

Sadly, he is mistaken.

I was of the same initial opinion, and my construction credentials are equal to anyone's. However we subsequently had (as you can see) a poster from Orlando who reported and proved ownership of a roll of this tape which was purchased at a national chain store in Orlando.

Although we might still entertain the hope (and believe me, I do) that a particular purchase in such a store might somehow lead to evidence against KC, the sad fact is that we have to concede that any number of people from that area (and lord knows how many other places) were certainly in possession of exactly that brand and species of tape.

This would tend to put it in the same class of evidence as garbage bags or laundry hampers. There may be some chain of relationship that could be established, but nothing earthshaking that we can assume or expect at this time. Possibly less, since the only sample of the Henkel tape found at the Anthony's home was on the gas can, and it could certainly be alleged that a mystery perp was responsible for that while the can was in the car trunk. This isn't the case with the garbage bags (which may end up matching a lot #) or the hamper (which has a clear partner at the A's).

 

[Ripley007]

You're doing just fine. Not missing or overlooking anything.

It would certainly be a "Good Thing" if the Henkel duct tape could be shown to be exceeding rare and difficult to obtain.

This is indeed what CP was trying to tell us.

Sadly, he is mistaken.

I was of the same initial opinion, and my construction credentials are equal to anyone's. However we subsequently had (as you can see) a poster from Orlando who reported and proved ownership of a roll of this tape which was purchased at a national chain store in Orlando.

Although we might still entertain the hope (and believe me, I do) that a particular purchase in such a store might somehow lead to evidence against KC, the sad fact is that we have to concede that any number of people from that area (and lord knows how many other places) were certainly in possession of exactly that brand and species of tape.

This would tend to put it in the same class of evidence as garbage bags or laundry hampers. There may be some chain of relationship that could be established, but nothing earthshaking that we can assume or expect at this time. Possibly less, since the only sample of the Henkel tape found at the Anthony's home was on the gas can, and it could certainly be alleged that a mystery perp was responsible for that while the can was in the car trunk. This isn't the case with the garbage bags (which may end up matching a lot #) or the hamper (which has a clear partner at the A's).

Gotcha! But...from memory, I thought most peeps posting, have NEVER seen Henkel Duct Tape with "front of tape" markings...so...
Still-This tape can be related back to the A home. Right? And the garbage bags Caylee was double wrapped in-related back to the A's home. Right? And the Laundry Hamper-can be related back to the A's home. Right?
So, we can safely say to KC "See ya, wouldn't want to be ya!" Right?

 

[fortytwo]

<snip>

Just Re-read your post. OK. Do we have a name for the person who found this Duct Tape readily available at HD in Orlando? And EVEN IF a surplus of this marked Henkel Tape was readily available, what does that change? Seems to me, it simply shows it was POSSIBLE for an Orlando citizen to purchase.

Just saw your addendum.

We have the poster's WS hat, "FairNBalanced". You can PM if you want, they seem to still be active.

It shows more than that it was "POSSIBLE for an Orlando citizen to purchase." It shows that at least one did. Absent some sort of conspiracy on the part of this individual, which seems unlikely, a reasonable person can surmise that many other people did as well. You know ... hurricane coming ... rush to building supply store ... yada, yada.

This does specifically address the question of the comparative scarcity of this particular tape. It may be generally scarce and unusual, but at some point in time before Caylee's death and in the Orlando area it was not.

Home Depot isn't likely to buy duct tape for resale a few rolls at a time, or even a few cases. If they were prepping for a storm sale we are probably talking about pallet loads. Plural.

This is not to say that the tape was ubiquitous or anything like that, but I think as far as that time frame and that vicinity are concerned we can reasonably remove it from the classification of "very rare".

 

[fortytwo]

Gotcha! But...from memory, I thought most peeps posting, have NEVER seen Henkel Duct Tape with "front of tape" markings...so...
Still-This tape can be related back to the A home. Right? And the garbage bags Caylee was double wrapped in-related back to the A's home. Right? And the Laundry Hamper-can be related back to the A's home. Right?
So, we can safely say to KC "See ya, wouldn't want to be ya!" Right?

(bold above by me)

I'd certainly like to think so.

I'm afraid, though, that without firmer connections than we are currently aware of these items don't do much more than add to the weight of circumstance pointing to KC's involvement. None of them establish any sort of incontrovertible link. Yet. (We need an 'I hope' smilie. Crossed fingers or something.)

 

[Ripley007]

Just saw your addendum.

We have the poster's WS hat, "FairNBalanced". You can PM if you want, they seem to still be active.

It shows more than that it was "POSSIBLE for an Orlando citizen to purchase." It shows that at least one did. Absent some sort of conspiracy on the part of this individual, which seems unlikely, a reasonable person can surmise that many other people did as well. You know ... hurricane coming ... rush to building supply store ... yada, yada.

This does specifically address the question of the comparative scarcity of this particular tape. It may be generally scarce and unusual, but at some point in time before Caylee's death and in the Orlando area it was not.

Home Depot isn't likely to buy duct tape for resale a few rolls at a time, or even a few cases. If they were prepping for a storm sale we are probably talking about pallet loads. Plural.

This is not to say that the tape was ubiquitous or anything like that, but I think as far as that time frame and that vicinity are concerned we can reasonably remove it from the classification of "very rare".

So...If Zanny the Nanny did it...she would have most certainly purchased THE roll of Duct Tape after moving to Florida, not using a roll she would have left over from living in New York. Or, she would have arrived at the crime scene empty-handed and found a "house-hold weapon" from the A's own home. :runaway::runaway::runaway:

 

[Concerned Papa]

You're doing just fine. Not missing or overlooking anything.

It would certainly be a "Good Thing" if the Henkel duct tape could be shown to be exceeding rare and difficult to obtain.

This is indeed what CP was trying to tell us.

Sadly, he is mistaken.

It appears that I may need to clarify my post.

(1) The word rare does not appear in my post.

(2) Henkel Fireguard Tape was manufactured for a specific usage therefore making it unique as compared to other types of Henkel "Duck" tape.

(3) I hold a CGC (Certified General Contractor) license here in Florida. In 35 years in the construction industry, I have never seen a duct tape with the logo printed on the face of the tape. IMO Henkel Fireguard Duck Tape being manufactured as such also qualifies it as unique in that regards.

(4) According to the information I, and another poster earlier in this thread, received from Henkel the product was discontinued in 2007.

The point of my post was, and is, that considering a.The product held such a minor portion of Henkel's market share it was discontinued the year before Caylee's death, b. It has the highly unusual characteristic of the logo on the face of the tape, and c. It was manufactured and marketed with a specific design function, Henkel Fireguard Duck Tape does not qualify as the most "common duct tape in the country" as stated by the defense.

IMO a + b + c may not equal rare, but it certainly does not equal common.

 

[Ripley007]

It appears that I may need to clarify my post.

(1) The word rare does not appear in my post.

(2) Henkel Fireguard Tape was manufactured for a specific usage therefore making it unique as compared to other types of Henkel "Duck" tape.

(3) I hold a CGC (Certified General Contractor) license here in Florida. In 35 years in the construction industry, I have never seen a duct tape with the logo printed on the face of the tape. IMO Henkel Fireguard Duck Tape being manufactured as such also qualifies it as unique in that regards.

(4) According to the information I, and another poster earlier in this thread, received from Henkel the product was discontinued in 2007.

The point of my post was, and is, that considering a.The product held such a minor portion of Henkel's market share it was discontinued the year before Caylee's death, b. It has the highly unusual characteristic of the logo on the face of the tape, and c. It was manufactured and marketed with a specific design function, Henkel Fireguard Duck Tape does not qualify as the most "common duct tape in the country" as stated by the defense.

IMO a + b + c may not equal rare, but it certainly does not equal common.

Thank you for this info. Any attributes to the word Rare probably came from my rambling posts. Not your words. Apologies.
This info keeps KC in the front running IMO. Sawgrass ZG had only just recently moved to Florida. If she was a big 'ol bad kidnapper/murderer, just saying, your post would give credence to the possibilty that she didn't arrive at the A home (WHEN???) to kill Caylee with Duct Tape in hand.

 

[fortytwo]

The tape shown in the evidence photos that have been released of the gas can, is a very unusual, unique type of duct tape.

<snip>
If the Anthony's had work done to their home's a/c and heating system, that could have been the source of this unique type of tape.

It appears that I may need to clarify my post.

(1) The word rare does not appear in my post.

(2) Henkel Fireguard Tape was manufactured for a specific usage therefore making it unique as compared to other types of Henkel "Duck" tape.

(3) I hold a CGC (Certified General Contractor) license here in Florida. In 35 years in the construction industry, I have never seen a duct tape with the logo printed on the face of the tape. IMO Henkel Fireguard Duck Tape being manufactured as such also qualifies it as unique in that regards.

(4) According to the information I, and another poster earlier in this thread, received from Henkel the product was discontinued in 2007.

The point of my post was, and is, that considering a.The product held such a minor portion of Henkel's market share it was discontinued the year before Caylee's death, b. It has the highly unusual characteristic of the logo on the face of the tape, and c. It was manufactured and marketed with a specific design function, Henkel Fireguard Duck Tape does not qualify as the most "common duct tape in the country" as stated by the defense.

IMO a + b + c may not equal rare, but it certainly does not equal common.

Ease up there, big guy. You're getting your panties in a wad for no good reason.

(1) I didn't say you said "rare". I was responding to other posters who were reiterating your post. You did, however, say,

The tape shown in the evidence photos that have been released of the gas can, is a very unusual, unique type of duct tape.

I think they might be forgiven for interpreting "very unusual, unique" as "rare". Don't you?

(2) Who cares what it was "manufactured for"? We know from a first hand observer that at least at one point it wasn't being sold for that.

(3) Bully for you. I won't get into a belly bumping contest with you about construction credentials because it has absolutely no relevance to this discussion, but FWIW I can match you easily year for year, and I am quite familiar with duct tape in all of its many incarnations and applications.

(4) Yes. This has been established. Again, who cares? I've got duct tape floating around my workshop and vehicles that are certainly less than new, even years old. I expect that you do too. We know from a first hand observer that this particular tape was available for purchase within a reasonable time span prior to Caylee's murder.

The point of my post was that we know from a first hand observer that this particular tape was available to anyone who wandered into a Home Depot local to Orlando in search of weatherproofing supplies immediately before an oncoming hurricane.

"Rare", "unique", "unusual", "common" ... these are all distinctions that we now know are not important to this particular topic, because we know that in this particular case the stuff was for sale right there in Orlando. Good grief, the guy even posted photos in this thread ... of his roll of this "unusual, unique type of duct tape."

In your item (3) above you said,

"In 35 years in the construction industry, I have never seen a duct tape with the logo printed on the face of the tape."

​

Perhaps you should have qualified that with "... until I saw the photos in this thread of the tape from an Orlando Home Depot."

 

[JWG]

The earlier email I have seen from Henkel's regarding this tape is:

After reviewing the photo of the piece of tape, it was determined that this
item was our FD 30 Fireguard Duct Tape. This item has been discontinued for
about two (2) years.. The main carrier of the tape was Lowes and we believe
it was sold at Lowes through the summer of 2007.

A follow-up email said:

Please see the additional information regarding where the tape was sold when it was an active item

After reviewing the photo of the piece of tape, it was determined that this item was our FD 30 Fireguard Duct Tape. This item has been discontinued for about two (2) years.. The main carrier of the tape was Lowes and we believe it was sold at Lowes through the summer of 2007. The tape may have also been sold at a few ACE Hardware stores, but the main carrier of the tape was Lowes.

Please advise if there is any other information needed.

 

[Mrs.Peacock]

Ease up there, big guy. You're getting your panties in a wad for no good reason.

(1) I didn't say you said "rare". I was responding to other posters who were reiterating your post. You did, however, say,



I think they might be forgiven for interpreting "very unusual, unique" as "rare". Don't you?

(2) Who cares what it was "manufactured for"? We know from a first hand observer that at least at one point it wasn't being sold for that.

(3) Bully for you. I won't get into a belly bumping contest with you about construction credentials because it has absolutely no relevance to this discussion, but FWIW I can match you easily year for year, and I am quite familiar with duct tape in all of its many incarnations and applications.

(4) Yes. This has been established. Again, who cares? I've got duct tape floating around my workshop and vehicles that are certainly less than new, even years old. I expect that you do too. We know from a first hand observer that this particular tape was available for purchase within a reasonable time span prior to Caylee's murder.

The point of my post was that we know from a first hand observer that this particular tape was available to anyone who wandered into a Home Depot local to Orlando in search of weatherproofing supplies immediately before an oncoming hurricane.

"Rare", "unique", "unusual", "common" ... these are all distinctions that we now know are not important to this particular topic, because we know that in this particular case the stuff was for sale right there in Orlando. Good grief, the guy even posted photos in this thread ... of his roll of this "unusual, unique type of duct tape."

In your item (3) above you said,

"In 35 years in the construction industry, I have never seen a duct tape with the logo printed on the face of the tape."

​

Perhaps you should have qualified that with "... until I saw the photos in this thread of the tape from an Orlando Home Depot."

Sounds like only one person getting their panties in a wad. The other is simply clarifying a post.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Rare and uncommon are relative terms. Henkel's production of this special purpose tape may have always been low, but could still be thousands of rolls. If the demand for duct tape spikes when a hurricane is threatening - it's possible that stockpiles of this tape were distributed to simply fill an immediate need. The region of Orlando around the Anthony's home may have had this tape sold in the hundreds of rolls or more.

I don't think this rather unique tape will be strong evidence for the prosecution unless it can be truly matched to the gas can tape. Fibers or hairs found in the tape may be much more damning.

 

[BondJamesBond]

FWIW...there are degrees of detail beyond the simple mfgr, make & class of the duct tape that would come into play for the forensics on the tape to become THE damning evidence, IMHO.

IOW...if you'll humor me an analogy. I kinda think 'bout the duct tape mfgr, make & class info like blood type:

Consider the following blood types and the corresponding % of the population that share them:

O+ 37%
A+ 34%
B+ 10%
O- 6%
A- 6%
AB+ 4%
B- 2%
AB- 1%​

In general terms finding an "AB-" blood type @ a crime scene can help greatly narrow down the suspect from the general population. But alone it doesn't prove that a defendent w/ "AB-" blood type is guilty. Same can be said of "B+", etc., it just serves as an initial 'filter' through which LE & the prosecution must pass.

To relate that to the importance of the mfgr, make & class of the duct tape matching a sample from the Anthony's home...well...just consider it most important that they aren't a mismatch. A mismatch...now that would be a problem, but, not even that wouldn't be altogether impossible to navigate. Sooo....that they do match just allows the prosecution to go further. Let's count our blessings. :thumb:

Wild LP-style speculation to illustrate a point of the relative importance of mfgr, make, and class vs. detailed forensics (insert dream sequence music here):

Round 1:
SA = They match!
D = So would >x% of the population in Orlando if we searched their garages. It only matters little if x=0.5, 5, or 50, really, it isn't = to 1-unique-person...it isn't Casey's DNA.

Round 2:
SA = The weaving pattern in the tape backing is consistent with the mfg equipment in only 1 production line in the world...which has a quality problem and tends to produce a tighter weave
D = So would >x% of the population in Orlando if we searched their garages. It only matters little if x=0.5, 1, or 2, really, it isn't = to 1-unique-person...it isn't Casey's DNA.

Round 3:
SA = The cotton High Volume Index mean fiber length for both the sample found @ the disposal site and the sample recovered from 4937 Hopespring Drive are 27/32" +/- 1/32" and based on the quality control records of the mfgr the probability that these two samples come from the same roll is 99.98%
D = 99.98% is not 100%

Round 4:
SA = For both the sample found @ the disposal site and the sample recovered from 4937 Hopespring Drive the 10th fiber in the longitudinal weave is of a diameter that is 150% greater than any other fiber in the weave. Longitudinal fibers are supplied by spools that are 100yards in length and are unique to 6 rolls of product produced in series.
D = Uh :waitasec:

Round 5:
SA = Observe the remaining 5 rolls of tape recovered from 4937 Hopespring Drive that demonstrate the same, unique, 10th longitudinal fiber characteristic
D = Uh....:waitasec:.....uh.... :idea: ZFG must've taken the tape from the house!!​

Thus ends today's edition of Forensics Playhouse. Tune in next time when LP says, "Casey took the duct tape...see...and she circled Amscot with it...see.."

 

[Marina2]

BJB, that is exactly the approach that forensics will take. We are lucky that the match to date allows for this. They also have the adhesive qualities to factor into the equation.

 

[BondJamesBond]

BJB, that is exactly the approach that forensics will take. We are lucky that the match to date allows for this. They also have the adhesive qualities to factor into the equation.

Thanks, Marina. I guess the CSI-effect is becoming more commonplace and raising the bar with juries everywhere.

One thing I've learned over the years is that I'll never be surprised to learn the degree to which "the onion can be peeled" on any given topic.

I think it was Einstein that said, "The more I learn, the more I realize I don&#8217;t know. The more I realize I don&#8217;t know, the more I want to learn." :thumb:

 

[Muzikman]

Today (9/3/09) some certified Henkel documents were entered into the court file.

http://www.filedropper.com/henkeldocscertification


Coincidental that it is made in Ohio, where the Anthony's moved from.

 

[Steely Dan]

Today (9/3/09) some certified Henkel documents were entered into the court file.

http://www.filedropper.com/henkeldocscertification


Coincidental that it is made in Ohio, where the Anthony's moved from.

I can't see the file. :slap: I have to sign up for some service in order to get it. :cry:

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

I can't see the file. :slap: I have to sign up for some service in order to get it. :cry:

It worked for me. All I had to do was to type in those funny, distorted numbers (everything else was already filled in.) ~ and it downloaded just fine. Sorry you're running into trouble.