The Duct Tape Match #3

[AutomaticAuttie]

Can someone over here please answer this question I have.....Did the FBI flat out say the fabrics on the two pieces of tape did not match(adding nothing else to their statement)? Or did they say they didn't match and the reason for them not matching could be because of xyz(so to speak)?

 

[AZlawyer]

Will someone please answer my question, it has to do with the topic! Did the FBI flat out say the fabrics on the two pieces of tape did not match(adding nothing else to their statemenet)? Or did they say they didn't match and the reason for them not matching could be because of xyz(so to speak)?

OK, at the risk of going O/T by saying something might be O/T, I think there's a thread on this ("the duct tape match")...but at least it's a duct tape question so I'll answer it here in hopes of steering the thread back in the right direction.

In the report, the FBI said the two pieces were not consistent with coming from the same source roll due to differences in the fabric. In notes, they listed exactly what the fabric composition was of both the Q62-64 tape (body) and the Q66 tape (gas can). IIRC, Valhall posted the link to those notes, but I can't find it for the life of me. The only difference was that the Q62-64 tape was missing the cotton.

We know for sure, because of the logo on the tape and Henkel's documents regarding the specs for the only tape they make with that logo, that the Q62-64 tape originally had cotton in the fabric backing. So the cotton was there and is now gone. The only reasonable explanation for that is decomposition from the elements.

HOWEVER, the FBI said the Q62-64 tape was not from the same source roll as the Q66 tape, rather than saying that the Q62-64 tape could have come from the same source roll but was degraded so it was impossible to match the fibers. So obviously there could be something we're missing in the FBI notes about the differences between these two tape samples.

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

OK, at the risk of going O/T by saying something might be O/T, I think there's a thread on this ("the duct tape match")...but at least it's a duct tape question so I'll answer it here in hopes of steering the thread back in the right direction.

In the report, the FBI said the two pieces were not consistent with coming from the same source roll due to differences in the fabric. In notes, they listed exactly what the fabric composition was of both the Q62-64 tape (body) and the Q66 tape (gas can). IIRC, Valhall posted the link to those notes, but I can't find it for the life of me. The only difference was that the Q62-64 tape was missing the cotton.

We know for sure, because of the logo on the tape and Henkel's documents regarding the specs for the only tape they make with that logo, that the Q62-64 tape originally had cotton in the fabric backing. So the cotton was there and is now gone. The only reasonable explanation for that is decomposition from the elements.

HOWEVER, the FBI said the Q62-64 tape was not from the same source roll as the Q66 tape, rather than saying that the Q62-64 tape could have come from the same source roll but was degraded so it was impossible to match the fibers. So obviously there could be something we're missing in the FBI notes about the differences between these two tape samples.

Thank you!

 

[notthatsmart]

Great work, JWG! I have one question, though, about the logo spacing between tape pieces. Didn't the ME have to cut off the ends of some of the pieces of tape in order to free the tape from Caylee's hair?

I think they cut it from the hair and not the tape. But then again, Where is the hair in the pics of the tape?

 

[Wudge]

Can someone over here please answer this question I have.....Did the FBI flat out say the fabrics on the two pieces of tape did not match(adding nothing else to their statement)? Or did they say they didn't match and the reason for them not matching could be because of xyz(so to speak)?

As best I know, the FBI did not find a tear match, which, by my measure of tape evidence, would be the most important match. Moreover, The FBI reported that the fibers on the tape found on Caylee were dissimilar in appearance to the fibers on the tape from the gas can. The FBI also reported the fibers from both tape sources had the same chemical composition. So it's possible that both pieces came from the same roll. It's also possible that both sources of tape did not come from the same roll.

With only the chemical composition being the same, you should not expect to hear an FBI technician or examiner testifying that the lab tests prove the two tape sources are a 'match'.

HTH

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

As best I know, the FBI did not find a tear match, which, by my measure of tape evidence, would be the most important match. Moreover, The FBI reported that the fibers on the tape found on Caylee were dissimilar in appearance to the fibers on the tape from the gas can. The FBI also reported the fibers from both tape sources had the same chemical composition. So it's possible that both pieces came from the same roll. It's also possible that both sources of tape did not come from the same roll.

With only the chemical composition being the same, you should not expect to hear an FBI technician or examiner testifying that the lab tests prove the two tape sources are a 'match'.

HTH

Thank you!

 

[celticthyme]

Oh gag - didn't somebody (I'm thinking BJB, JWG or someone equally precise with the facts) indicate that the Lexus number that originally appeared was a misprint and it was really the number to Gentiva?? I have no idea how long it would take me to look for this, but does anyone remember where that was posted here? TIA+.

Not sure if this helps, but I just looked up these phone numbers:

GENTIVA, INFUSION THERAPY ON SEMORAN 407-678-2068
LEXUS DEALERSHIP : ORLANDO, FL 407-678-2000

 

[AZlawyer]

Not sure if this helps, but I just looked up these phone numbers:

GENTIVA, INFUSION THERAPY ON SEMORAN 407-678-2068
LEXUS DEALERSHIP : ORLANDO, FL 407-678-2000

Check out the George/Lexus thread in the stickies. Short answer is, there are 2 sets of phone records, both from AT&T. The billing records show the Gentiva number; the tower records show the Lexus number. Since Cindy works at Gentiva and no one we know of worked at Lexus, I'm banking on the Gentiva number being correct. Otherwise, it would be a mind-blowing coincidence that the "wrong number" printed in the billing records happened to be the number of Casey's mom's office.

So to show that this is on topic... ...this is why I don't think there is any point in discussing whether the duct tape might have originated from Lexus. IMHO Casey never called Lexus and there is no Lexus connection in this case.

 

[Harmony 2]

Will someone please answer my question, it has to do with the topic! Did the FBI flat out say the fabrics on the two pieces of tape did not match(adding nothing else to their statemenet)? Or did they say they didn't match and the reason for them not matching could be because of xyz(so to speak)?

The statement about the fiber composition not matching is on page 11 of this document:

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Stories/Local/conwayrelease.pdf

(Note: I could not locate the statement about the adhesive matching.)

HTH

 

[AutomaticAuttie]

The statement about the fiber composition not matching is on page 11 of this document:

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Stories/Local/conwayrelease.pdf

(Note: I could not locate the statement about the adhesive matching.)

HTH

Thank you very much, I will read over it!

 

[cecybeans]

I find the theories about blue fiber contamination of the duct tape fascinating. I'm wondering if it all could have happened in the car. I realize that the fibers on the car seat cover are probably too blue gray to be classified as blue, but if the tape roll was in contact with the carseat, it might have left fibers that remained on the edges. I'm also thinking it could be possible that KC had some blue item in the back seat or in the trunk and the tape roll was in contact with that.

If the contamination took place in the car, after KC had removed the roll from the garage, that might explain things. Except for the fact that GA was awfully firm about saying he himself could have never put that duct tape on the can. Wonder if he read about the blue fibers and didn't want to tie them to the garage?? I'm going to try to see if I can find any blue clothes KC may have had that could have been in the car at some point, or perhaps something blue in the garage. I'm thinking that blue fibers from some kind of terrycloth towel would have easily transferred.

 

[lizzysf]

I find the theories about blue fiber contamination of the duct tape fascinating. I'm wondering if it all could have happened in the car. I realize that the fibers on the car seat cover are probably too blue gray to be classified as blue, but if the tape roll was in contact with the carseat, it might have left fibers that remained on the edges. I'm also thinking it could be possible that KC had some blue item in the back seat or in the trunk and the tape roll was in contact with that.

If the contamination took place in the car, after KC had removed the roll from the garage, that might explain things. Except for the fact that GA was awfully firm about saying he himself could have never put that duct tape on the can. Wonder if he read about the blue fibers and didn't want to tie them to the garage?? I'm going to try to see if I can find any blue clothes KC may have had that could have been in the car at some point, or perhaps something blue in the garage. I'm thinking that blue fibers from some kind of terrycloth towel would have easily transferred.

BLUE FIBERS
You know those blue cotton rags mechanics use..they wipe the oil dipsticks with them and stuff? George, being Mr. Auto guy, may have had some on the shelf in the garage in contact with the duct tape.. Maybe he used them too to wipe down any spill on the gas can.. if he overfilled the can it may leak out the vent where he has the duct tape..so he may wipe around that leaving blue fibers on the tape edges. On second thought, if he routinely lifted the tape so he could open the vent while pouring the gas into the mower and it sloshed out the vent a bit, he would have wiped it down before sticking the tape back down. I don't think he'd be using Cindy's bath towels to do that with..if ya know what I mean I think they call those "shop towels" too. Just a thought. Something like these: http://www.wipersource.com/servlet/the-67/Mechanic's-Shop-Rags,-Blue/Detail

 

[JWG]

OK, at the risk of going O/T by saying something might be O/T, I think there's a thread on this ("the duct tape match")...but at least it's a duct tape question so I'll answer it here in hopes of steering the thread back in the right direction.

In the report, the FBI said the two pieces were not consistent with coming from the same source roll due to differences in the fabric. In notes, they listed exactly what the fabric composition was of both the Q62-64 tape (body) and the Q66 tape (gas can). IIRC, Valhall posted the link to those notes, but I can't find it for the life of me. The only difference was that the Q62-64 tape was missing the cotton.

We know for sure, because of the logo on the tape and Henkel's documents regarding the specs for the only tape they make with that logo, that the Q62-64 tape originally had cotton in the fabric backing. So the cotton was there and is now gone. The only reasonable explanation for that is decomposition from the elements.

HOWEVER, the FBI said the Q62-64 tape was not from the same source roll as the Q66 tape, rather than saying that the Q62-64 tape could have come from the same source roll but was degraded so it was impossible to match the fibers. So obviously there could be something we're missing in the FBI notes about the differences between these two tape samples.

What the FBI says is:

The fabric portion of specimens Q62 through Q64 (FBI Laboratory number 081213001 TO LF) and Q104 (FBI Laboratory number 090115014 TO LF) (remains/scene) are microscopically dissimilar in fiber composition to the fiber composition of the specimen Q66 (FBI Laboratory number 081213001 TO LF) residence). Accordingly they are not consistent with originating from the same source as Q66.

So they did not come out and say they were not from the same source roll.

 

[JWG]

As best I know, the FBI did not find a tear match, which, by my measure of tape evidence, would be the most important match. Moreover, The FBI reported that the fibers on the tape found on Caylee were dissimilar in appearance to the fibers on the tape from the gas can. The FBI also reported the fibers from both tape sources had the same chemical composition. So it's possible that both pieces came from the same roll. It's also possible that both sources of tape did not come from the same roll.

With only the chemical composition being the same, you should not expect to hear an FBI technician or examiner testifying that the lab tests prove the two tape sources are a 'match'.

HTH

We still await the reports from the Questioned Documents Unit on the edge-matching attempt.

 

[christee]

I took a look at the images of Q62, Q63, Q64, Q66 (gas can tape) and Q104 to see if it was possible to determine if / how the pieces were originally attached to each other. :waitasec:

When one cuts or tears duct tape, the edges stretch and deform, so with only a handful of images to work from, edge matching is not easy. No doubt the FBI at some point in their work carefully laid out and smoothed the tape so that they could do edge-matching. That is hard to do with the images we have.

But, we can do logo-matching, particularly if we look at the backs of the tape. The cutting was done through the logos, but at differing locations, making the matching not particularly difficult. :thumb: Oddly enough, I believe the pieces of tape from the remains were attached in the order the FBI numbered them (I think this is purely coincidence).

Referring to the images of the back of each piece of tape, I believe the right edge of Q62 was attached to the left edge of Q63; and the right edge of Q63 was attached to the left edge of Q64.

Black and white low-quality images of Q104 are shown on discovery pages 9758 - 9759. The first image is of the front, and the Henkel logo is visible on the left. The location of the tear through the logo is consistent with the location of the tear on the right side (of the back) of Q64. Thus, I conclude the right of Q64 was connected to the left of Q104.

A big question is whether or not Q66 from the gas can was ever attached at either end of the Q62 - Q104 strip. :waitasec:

The location of the full Q66 logo near the "bottom" edge is inconsistent with having been attached to the right side of Q62.

The quality of the Q104 image is not only poor, but the right-side is badly damaged. The best I could do is take some rough measurements (logo to logo, which are not precise because the image is of a piece of tape that has not been flattened out or straightened.

That being said, the measurements I took show that the location of the torn logo that should be on the right side (front image of tape) of Q104 is consistent with the location of the torn logo on the "top edge" of the gas can tape.

This does not tell us if the gas can tape was taken from the roll before or after the tape was put on the skull. This depends on the orientation of the logo to the leading-edge of the tape roll. If the top of the logo is toward the leading-edge, the gas can tape was removed after the tape was put on the remains. If the bottom of the logo is toward the leading-edge, then the gas can tape was removed from the roll sometime before tape was put on Caylee. Not sure it really matters.

As I did this, I noticed another thing that shows Q66 probably came from the same roll as the remains tape. It has to do with where the logo itself is cut at the sides of the tape.

Remember when we did the duct tape survey and one person - FairNBalanced - managed to find a roll of the rare tape? Here is one of the images posted, with an annotation by me showing that the logo lettering is cut on the right edge of the tape just after the comma:

View attachment 5742

The back of Q62 has a location that quite clearly shows where the logo is cut. Notice it is just after the "I" in "Inc":

View attachment 5743

This means FairNBalanced no longer needs to worry about OCSO coming after him as the mystery nanny. :yow: The other pieces of remains tape also show the same cutoff, although not quite as nicely due to image quality, adhesive residue, or dirt.

Now take a look at the gas can tape (not the best image quality from the media):

View attachment 5744

Think maybe we have a match?

Hey JWG!
Has anyone done a "cut" of each end of the pieces of tape and tried to match them up? I believe a WSer did this with the heart sticker outline a few months ago.

Would it be worth the time? What software would you suggest? I'd like to give that a try.
You mentioned working with the logos on the tape-do you have any pics of what you came up with?

I know...prob too many questions but, thought I'd ask!
:thumb:

 

[JWG]

Hey JWG!
Has anyone done a "cut" of each end of the pieces of tape and tried to match them up? I believe a WSer did this with the heart sticker outline a few months ago.

Would it be worth the time? What software would you suggest? I'd like to give that a try.
You mentioned working with the logos on the tape-do you have any pics of what you came up with?

I know...prob too many questions but, thought I'd ask!
:thumb:

Hi Christee :seeya: ... hope you are keeping those knees warm.

I did the logo line-up as a sort of proxy to the edge-match in an attempt to determine where Q66 might fit. It seemed from that little exercise that the only place Q66 would fit is with Q104. Therefore, I think the only meaningful edge match is between the gas can tape and the Q104 tape. Unfortunately, the only image out there of Q104 is pretty terrible, and it is really bad where I think the match would occur. So, until we get better images, it is kind of a futile exercise. :bang:

 

[JWG]

Folks might have noticed that the duct tape logo repeats in an offset pattern, sort of like one would see on wallpaper. However, unlike wallpaper, the logo offsets are not spaced such that I can take a single roll of tape and paper my wall in a seamless fashion. In other words, the left edge of the tape will never line up with the right edge. The "tiling pattern" is not quite right. :waitasec:

I took some measurements of the longer strip that FairNBalanced posted earlier this year and, without going into the math (yeah, trust me), I determined that every 8th roll will have the same tiling pattern. Notthatsmart noted earlier that about 300,000 rolls of the tape had been sold in North America over a 10 year period. However, only 37,500 of those rolls would have the tiling in question. :dance:

The roll FairNBalanced found would fit within the same tolerance window as the Caylee tape. Again, taking measurements from the FairNBalanced tape, the "I" in "Inc." seen on his tape but not on the Caylee tape falls within the width tolerance allowed by the roll cutters. However, if I understand the way these machines work, the FairNBalanced tape could not have been cut from the same process window as the Caylee tape. He is still safe from being pegged as Zenaida. :thumb:

In other words, if I set up my machines on one day to produce tape, every eighth should look like the Caylee tape but none should look like the FairNBalanced tape. Now suppose I turn off my machinery and set everything back up the next day and make another manufacturing run. The same set of cutters that produced Caylee tape might now produce FairNBalanced tape (but not Caylee tape). Every eighth tape will look like FairNBalancedtape. This is due to the slight allowable differences in tolerance.

Bottom line is, we are probably looking at fewer than 20,000 rolls being produced that look like the Caylee tape. These rolls were distributed to over 1400 Lowes in North America, or about 14 rolls per Lowes (1.4 rolls per year).

P.S. - If I were to testify I suppose I should have diagrams and possibly a Flash animation that shows the cutting of rolls. Sorry for not doing that here. :doh:

 

[lizzysf]

Folks might have noticed that the duct tape logo repeats in an offset pattern, sort of like one would see on wallpaper. However, unlike wallpaper, the logo offsets are not spaced such that I can take a single roll of tape and paper my wall in a seamless fashion. In other words, the left edge of the tape will never line up with the right edge. The "tiling pattern" is not quite right. :waitasec:

I took some measurements of the longer strip that FairNBalanced posted earlier this year and, without going into the math (yeah, trust me), I determined that every 8th roll will have the same tiling pattern. Notthatsmart noted earlier that about 300,000 rolls of the tape had been sold in North America over a 10 year period. However, only 37,500 of those rolls would have the tiling in question. :dance:

The roll FairNBalanced found would fit within the same tolerance window as the Caylee tape. Again, taking measurements from the FairNBalanced tape, the "I" in "Inc." seen on his tape but not on the Caylee tape falls within the width tolerance allowed by the roll cutters. However, if I understand the way these machines work, the FairNBalanced tape could not have been cut from the same process window as the Caylee tape. He is still safe from being pegged as Zenaida. :thumb:

In other words, if I set up my machines on one day to produce tape, every eighth should look like the Caylee tape but none should look like the FairNBalanced tape. Now suppose I turn off my machinery and set everything back up the next day and make another manufacturing run. The same set of cutters that produced Caylee tape might now produce FairNBalanced tape (but not Caylee tape). Every eighth tape will look like FairNBalancedtape. This is due to the slight allowable differences in tolerance.

Bottom line is, we are probably looking at fewer than 20,000 rolls being produced that look like the Caylee tape. These rolls were distributed to over 1400 Lowes in North America, or about 14 rolls per Lowes (1.4 rolls per year).

P.S. - If I were to testify I suppose I should have diagrams and possibly a Flash animation that shows the cutting of rolls. Sorry for not doing that here. :doh:

And I assume you've passed this stunning find on to OCSO..i hope..
:dance:

 

[Oakley]

I dont think we have established that the duct tape is rare. Yes in some of your opinion it is rare, but there is not enough evidence to show this. We dont even know who manufactured this tape.

The fabric from the gas can and the fabric from the tape on Caylees skull is dis similar according to the FBI. The fact that there is fabric indicates that there is enough to compare.

If someone else has Dna on the sticky side of the duct tape (which could have been preserved if between two pieces) , We need to know who that is, otherwise it is a good argument that it was the perp.

I am not sure there is a doc that shows that the gas can duct tape is from the first or the second time they confinscated it.

I will form an opinion once all the facts are in. For now, she is presummed innocent.

I am just curious. Wouldn't it be sop for LE to take a picture of the gas can or any evidence in its original location before they collect it? And then again take a pic when they get it to the evidence garage?

That would clear up any inconsistencies in GA statement that it didnt have duct tape on it.

If so, they have not released that picture. My understanding of the Sunshine law is that if they dont release it, it is because they are still investigating it.

I still think she is guilty, but I am not sure.

BBM. I am so confused. So do you think she is innocent or guilty? :waitasec:

 

[FORDANIEL]

Folks might have noticed that the duct tape logo repeats in an offset pattern, sort of like one would see on wallpaper. However, unlike wallpaper, the logo offsets are not spaced such that I can take a single roll of tape and paper my wall in a seamless fashion. In other words, the left edge of the tape will never line up with the right edge. The "tiling pattern" is not quite right. :waitasec:

I took some measurements of the longer strip that FairNBalanced posted earlier this year and, without going into the math (yeah, trust me), I determined that every 8th roll will have the same tiling pattern. Notthatsmart noted earlier that about 300,000 rolls of the tape had been sold in North America over a 10 year period. However, only 37,500 of those rolls would have the tiling in question. :dance:

The roll FairNBalanced found would fit within the same tolerance window as the Caylee tape. Again, taking measurements from the FairNBalanced tape, the "I" in "Inc." seen on his tape but not on the Caylee tape falls within the width tolerance allowed by the roll cutters. However, if I understand the way these machines work, the FairNBalanced tape could not have been cut from the same process window as the Caylee tape. He is still safe from being pegged as Zenaida. :thumb:

In other words, if I set up my machines on one day to produce tape, every eighth should look like the Caylee tape but none should look like the FairNBalanced tape. Now suppose I turn off my machinery and set everything back up the next day and make another manufacturing run. The same set of cutters that produced Caylee tape might now produce FairNBalanced tape (but not Caylee tape). Every eighth tape will look like FairNBalancedtape. This is due to the slight allowable differences in tolerance.

Bottom line is, we are probably looking at fewer than 20,000 rolls being produced that look like the Caylee tape. These rolls were distributed to over 1400 Lowes in North America, or about 14 rolls per Lowes (1.4 rolls per year).

P.S. - If I were to testify I suppose I should have diagrams and possibly a Flash animation that shows the cutting of rolls. Sorry for not doing that here. :doh:

NOW this is great sleuthing!!!!@