The Duct Tape Match #3

[notthatsmart]

Respectfully snipped from JWG Post #347, this thread.

We get all wrapped up in DNA found on the tape without thinking objectively about who's DNA was not found: Caylees'.

To me that says that old DNA from Caylee or the murderer was not found due to degradation, and any DNA found would be due to investigative handlers.

I am not seeing this as an issue at trial.

Thank you JWG! I've been wanting to shout this out in huge caps to everyone! Since exposure to the elements erased even Caylee's DNA (which had to have been ALL OVER that tape when it was first put on her) then the unindentifiable partial DNA containing "17" is not related to her murder or murderer!!

During trials, it's so easy for defense attorneys like LKB to take highly complex scientific forensic evidence and convert it into a weapon of mass destruction aimed straight at the jury's most precious and valuable asset -- COMMON SENSE. To further guarantee the annihiliation of an English-speaking jury's ability to question or even understand all this extremely complex scientific data, the data itself will be discussed and disputed on the witness stand by a collection of brilliant "famed forensic scientists" like Dr. Henry Lee, whose English-speaking skills are so god-awful that it's impossible to understand much of what they say!
So there. I've had my say. I feel better now. :blowkiss:

PS: To banish any doubt, I will add that I have the same objection to forensic scientists with seriously inadequate English-speaking skills, regardless of whether they're testifying for the defense or the prosecution. As a jurror, listenening to them is like trying to make sense of my last sentence with some of the words blacked out.

The dna segment on the duct tape was found on the sticky side. If it was inbetween two overlapping pieces of tape, It could have been preserved. Two of those pieces of tape were stuck together. I know they came apart easily, but they were still together. That indicates that there was glue there was backing and yes there was fabric. I am not falling for this weathering theory. There was substance there and the fbi tested that substance and they reported it to not be consistent with coming from the same source as the gas can tape. I know this thread is about the duct tape match, but the darned dna keeps finding it way in here. sorry mods

 

[sleutherontheside]

The dna segment on the duct tape was found on the sticky side. If it was inbetween two overlapping pieces of tape, It could have been preserved. Two of those pieces of tape were stuck together. I know they came apart easily, but they were still together. That indicates that there was glue there was backing and yes there was fabric. I am not falling for this weathering theory. There was substance there and the fbi tested that substance and they reported it to not be consistent with coming from the same source as the gas can tape. I know this thread is about the duct tape match, but the darned dna keeps finding it way in here. sorry mods

BBM...I will debate that statement by asking you to consider two pieces of plain copy paper left outside on on top of another and exposed to rain and the elements. When dried, they will "stick together" but can pulled apart. No adhesive would be required. I think the tape will be much the same.

 

[LambChop]

frm JWG Bottom line is, we are probably looking at fewer than 20,000 rolls being produced that look like the Caylee tape. These rolls were distributed to over 1400 Lowes in North America, or about 14 rolls per Lowes (1.4 rolls per year).[Quote]

So if this is true the tape is even much rarer than we originally thought. So as a juror with all the other things found at the site and the fact that this tape had to be rare and that it does not match up because of the cotton fibers but matches the logo which is offset, one would assume the tape was from the same roll or a similar roll which may have been purchased at the same time for this household.

I would think those lab reports from the FBI are just reports to release to defense and not any other information that they would be willing to testify to at trial. Isn't it up to defense to get their experts to make their own determinations regarding the tape?

Like to think there is a piece of Henkel duct tape sitting in a swamp right this minute waiting to be tested in December. That would be very interesting. If no testing was done I would assume FBI had no reason to do the testing because they already have the answer.

 

[notthatsmart]

frm JWG Bottom line is, we are probably looking at fewer than 20,000 rolls being produced that look like the Caylee tape. These rolls were distributed to over 1400 Lowes in North America, or about 14 rolls per Lowes (1.4 rolls per year).[Quote]

So if this is true the tape is even much rarer than we originally thought. So as a juror with all the other things found at the site and the fact that this tape had to be rare and that it does not match up because of the cotton fibers but matches the logo which is offset, one would assume the tape was from the same roll or a similar roll which may have been purchased at the same time for this household.

I would think those lab reports from the FBI are just reports to release to defense and not any other information that they would be willing to testify to at trial. Isn't it up to defense to get their experts to make their own determinations regarding the tape?

Like to think there is a piece of Henkel duct tape sitting in a swamp right this minute waiting to be tested in December. That would be very interesting. If no testing was done I would assume FBI had no reason to do the testing because they already have the answer.[/QUOTE]

I agree. No need for further testing because we already have the answer. The fibers are dis similar.

When they had only tested the chemical make up, that wasn't good enough so they tested the fabric. I wonder if there are further test?

 

[notthatsmart]

BBM...I will debate that statement by asking you to consider two pieces of plain copy paper left outside on on top of another and exposed to rain and the elements. When dried, they will "stick together" but can pulled apart. No adhesive would be required. I think the tape will be much the same.

Sure I will debate with spirit.

Paper is not protected by polyethlene and rubberized glue.

The fact that there was substance to test shows it was preserved.

I think the tape not matching is huge...

 

[lizzysf]

frm JWG Bottom line is, we are probably looking at fewer than 20,000 rolls being produced that look like the Caylee tape. These rolls were distributed to over 1400 Lowes in North America, or about 14 rolls per Lowes (1.4 rolls per year).[Quote]

So if this is true the tape is even much rarer than we originally thought. So as a juror with all the other things found at the site and the fact that this tape had to be rare and that it does not match up because of the cotton fibers but matches the logo which is offset, one would assume the tape was from the same roll or a similar roll which may have been purchased at the same time for this household.

I would think those lab reports from the FBI are just reports to release to defense and not any other information that they would be willing to testify to at trial. Isn't it up to defense to get their experts to make their own determinations regarding the tape?

Like to think there is a piece of Henkel duct tape sitting in a swamp right this minute waiting to be tested in December. That would be very interesting. If no testing was done I would assume FBI had no reason to do the testing because they already have the answer.

My thoughts exactly.. the FBI are smart enough to figure out that swamp soaked fibers would look differently than the fibers from piece of the same tape sitting on a gas can if we are smart enough to figure that out

 

[notthatsmart]

I think if you throw a 65/35 t-shirt in the woods for 6 months under bad weather conditions, 6 months later it would still be a 65/35 t-shirt. Now If I were the FBI and I was to compare that to a nice clean dry 65/35 t-shirt, I wouldn't say that the fibers are from a different source if I thought it came from the same source. They didn't elaborate!! Thats what bothers me. They always elaborate with things like that is not to say that it didnt come from the same source. They didn't do that this time. They left it at that. The fibers from Q62 are consistent with coming from a different source that Q66. They left it at that..

 

[Brini]

Respectfully snipped from JWG Post #347, this thread.

We get all wrapped up in DNA found on the tape without thinking objectively about who's DNA was not found: Caylees'.

To me that says that old DNA from Caylee or the murderer was not found due to degradation, and any DNA found would be due to investigative handlers.

I am not seeing this as an issue at trial.

Thank you JWG! I've been wanting to shout this out in huge caps to everyone! Since exposure to the elements erased even Caylee's DNA (which had to have been ALL OVER that tape when it was first put on her) then the unindentifiable partial DNA containing "17" is not related to her murder or murderer!!

During trials, it's so easy for defense attorneys like LKB to take highly complex scientific forensic evidence and convert it into a weapon of mass destruction aimed straight at the jury's most precious and valuable asset -- COMMON SENSE. To further guarantee the annihiliation of an English-speaking jury's ability to question or even understand all this extremely complex scientific data, the data itself will be discussed and disputed on the witness stand by a collection of brilliant "famed forensic scientists" like Dr. Henry Lee, whose English-speaking skills are so god-awful that it's impossible to understand much of what they say!
So there. I've had my say. I feel better now. :blowkiss:

PS: To banish any doubt, I will add that I have the same objection to forensic scientists with seriously inadequate English-speaking skills, regardless of whether they're testifying for the defense or the prosecution. As a jurror, listenening to them is like trying to make sense of my last sentence with some of the words blacked out.

r.


Yeah, I can't figure out what the issue is, either.

The body was so delayed by the elements that there was nothing left but bone. And, we are wondering why the DNA was eroded away?

And, cross-contamination in processing happened all the time. That's why the labs sample the techs.

S0, what was that issue. again?

 

[Friday]

Respectfully snipped.

I think if you throw a 65/35 t-shirt in the woods for 6 months under bad weather conditions, 6 months later it would still be a 65/35t-shirt.

I assume by a 65/35 t-shirt, you mean a t-shirt with the ratio of 65% cotton to 35% synthetic. I'm actually embarrassed to ask this, but if I mix a batch of cotton fibers (which disintegrate completely with time and exposure to the elements) and add in an equal number of polyester fibers (which don't disintegrate) wouldn't the ratio of cotton to polyester begin to change with the passage of time until what ultimately remains of the batch is 100% polyester?

Or, if I mix two pounds of whipped cream with two pounds of sand and leave the batch outside in the elements, how could I still end up with a 50/50 mix in ten years?

Obviously, this is why I am a writer and not a scientist. LOL

 

[RR0004]

Folks might have noticed that the duct tape logo repeats in an offset pattern, sort of like one would see on wallpaper. However, unlike wallpaper, the logo offsets are not spaced such that I can take a single roll of tape and paper my wall in a seamless fashion. In other words, the left edge of the tape will never line up with the right edge. The "tiling pattern" is not quite right. :waitasec:

I took some measurements of the longer strip that FairNBalanced posted earlier this year and, without going into the math (yeah, trust me), I determined that every 8th roll will have the same tiling pattern. Notthatsmart noted earlier that about 300,000 rolls of the tape had been sold in North America over a 10 year period. However, only 37,500 of those rolls would have the tiling in question. :dance:

The roll FairNBalanced found would fit within the same tolerance window as the Caylee tape. Again, taking measurements from the FairNBalanced tape, the "I" in "Inc." seen on his tape but not on the Caylee tape falls within the width tolerance allowed by the roll cutters. However, if I understand the way these machines work, the FairNBalanced tape could not have been cut from the same process window as the Caylee tape. He is still safe from being pegged as Zenaida. :thumb:

In other words, if I set up my machines on one day to produce tape, every eighth should look like the Caylee tape but none should look like the FairNBalanced tape. Now suppose I turn off my machinery and set everything back up the next day and make another manufacturing run. The same set of cutters that produced Caylee tape might now produce FairNBalanced tape (but not Caylee tape). Every eighth tape will look like FairNBalancedtape. This is due to the slight allowable differences in tolerance.

Bottom line is, we are probably looking at fewer than 20,000 rolls being produced that look like the Caylee tape. These rolls were distributed to over 1400 Lowes in North America, or about 14 rolls per Lowes (1.4 rolls per year).

P.S. - If I were to testify I suppose I should have diagrams and possibly a Flash animation that shows the cutting of rolls. Sorry for not doing that here. :doh:

Wow...just wow!

 

[JWG]

I agree. No need for further testing because we already have the answer. The fibers are dis similar.

When they had only tested the chemical make up, that wasn't good enough so they tested the fabric. I wonder if there are further test?

Well, not quite true.

When testing the duct tape the FBI knew they wanted to look for fingerprints, check for DNA, check for hair and fibers, and check for a match with the gas can tape. In checking for a match, they need to check for a chemical match, material match and manufacturing match. They won't do a chemical match alone, or a material match alone. They will do all of the tests, and from those test results it will be up to the prosecution as to how they weave the case and tell the story.

 

[RR0004]

The dna segment on the duct tape was found on the sticky side. If it was inbetween two overlapping pieces of tape, It could have been preserved. Two of those pieces of tape were stuck together. I know they came apart easily, but they were still together. That indicates that there was glue there was backing and yes there was fabric. I am not falling for this weathering theory. There was substance there and the fbi tested that substance and they reported it to not be consistent with coming from the same source as the gas can tape. I know this thread is about the duct tape match, but the darned dna keeps finding it way in here. sorry mods

Just curious...where does all this info about the tape coming apart easily come from (and heck...all the rest, too!)?

 

[LambChop]

Respectfully snipped.


I assume by a 65/35 t-shirt, you mean a t-shirt with the ratio of 65% cotton to 35% synthetic. I'm actually embarrassed to ask this, but if I mix a batch of cotton fibers (which disintegrate completely with time and exposure to the elements) and add in an equal number of polyester fibers (which don't disintegrate) wouldn't the ratio of cotton to polyester begin to change with the passage of time until what ultimately remains of the batch is 100% polyester?

Or, if I mix two pounds of whipped cream with two pounds of sand and leave the batch outside in the elements, how could I still end up with a 50/50 mix in ten years?

Obviously, this is why I am a writer and not a scientist. LOL

Also the cotton fibers on the duct tape were soaked in decomp as was the shirt. Insects would have made short order of both. JMO

 

[sleutherontheside]

Sure I will debate with spirit.

Paper is not protected by polyethlene and rubberized glue.

The fact that there was substance to test shows it was preserved.

I think the tape not matching is huge...

.

I think a more accurate statement would be "present". There is a difference between a substance being "present" and a substance being "preserved". "Preserved".....to keep in perfect or unaltered condition. I don't believe we can argue preservation, but can concede to "present".

 

[christee]

BLUE FIBERS
You know those blue cotton rags mechanics use..they wipe the oil dipsticks with them and stuff? George, being Mr. Auto guy, may have had some on the shelf in the garage in contact with the duct tape.. Maybe he used them too to wipe down any spill on the gas can.. if he overfilled the can it may leak out the vent where he has the duct tape..so he may wipe around that leaving blue fibers on the tape edges. On second thought, if he routinely lifted the tape so he could open the vent while pouring the gas into the mower and it sloshed out the vent a bit, he would have wiped it down before sticking the tape back down. I don't think he'd be using Cindy's bath towels to do that with..if ya know what I mean I think they call those "shop towels" too. Just a thought. Something like these: http://www.wipersource.com/servlet/the-67/Mechanic's-Shop-Rags,-Blue/Detail

There are also blue towels called "OR"(operating room), or "Huck" towels that are used in surgeries.


ETA-Ooops I accidentally used lizzysf's link! Here's another one:

http://www.eriecotton.com/p-4000-er...uck-towels-100-cotton-color-blue-50-pack.aspx

 

[lizzysf]

There are also blue towels called "OR"(operating room), or "Huck" towels that are used in surgeries.

http://www.wipersource.com/servlet/the-33/Huck-Towels,-Blue,-Reclaimed/Detail

True...we have George Mr. Auto guy and Cindy the nurse who used to assist in ortho surgeries and could have brought a stack home for George to use in the garage.
I found a wholesaler who sells them and the same blue towels are offered to mechanics and hospitals... same towel. Multi-industry use.
George could have had them from his auto dealing days in the used car business...to change oil etc. when he took in cars before he sold them. Also, the materials in the towels vary from company to company...some all cotton, some high poly, some mixed.

 

[sleutherontheside]

There are also blue towels called "OR"(operating room), or "Huck" towels that are used in surgeries.

http://www.wipersource.com/servlet/the-33/Huck-Towels,-Blue,-Reclaimed/Detail

I can't help but point out the coincidence between the term "huck" towels and the Florida Supreme Court ruling in HUCK regarding duct tape on a person after death is not logical.

 

[cecybeans]

When I wrap packages, sometimes I tear off two or three pieces of tape and put them on my wrist so I can pull them off quickly to apply.

What if KC did that with the duct tape? What if she cut several pieces and say, stuck the ends on her shirt or the bottom edge of her shorts to hold them ready? Duct tape peels off fabric much more easily than skin. It looks like she is wearing dark blue shorts and a lighter blue top in the Blockbuster video. I don't know if she changed after going to AL's or if she was wearing that when she got there.

 

[JWG]

Matching tape ends is not rocket science and doesn't take decades. The FBI lab has been publically humiliated, yet again. This time it's for evidence contamination. And any thought that this humiliated lab might have held back on key evidence would be wishful thinking.

For all we know it was released in the most recent 2000 pages sent to the defense. I think we are up to something like 12,000 or 13,000 pages of material that has been hand-numbered, copied, scanned, whatever. At this point I am not surprised that there are a lot of documents we have not seen.

 

[BondJamesBond]

Respectfully snipped.

I assume by a 65/35 t-shirt, you mean a t-shirt with the ratio of 65% cotton to 35% synthetic. I'm actually embarrassed to ask this, but if I mix a batch of cotton fibers (which disintegrate completely with time and exposure to the elements) and add in an equal number of polyester fibers (which don't disintegrate) wouldn't the ratio of cotton to polyester begin to change with the passage of time until what ultimately remains of the batch is 100% polyester?

Or, if I mix two pounds of whipped cream with two pounds of sand and leave the batch outside in the elements, how could I still end up with a 50/50 mix in ten years?

Obviously, this is why I am a writer and not a scientist. LOL

...am in the process of performing a similar experiment, Friday.

I am attempting to separate the vodka from the lillet kina, and I'm finding that..."with the passage of time"...the ratio remains the same.

However, in your experiment w/ the polyester & cotton fibers you are on the mark... that as time approaches infinity the ratio will approach 100% polyester. Important to note, though...that...in a blended fiber the surface area of each fiber isn't completely exposed. In other words...some cotton fibers will be shielded from the elements by the polyester fiber next to it...being protected from disintigration. IOW...it'll take longer for some of the cotton fibers in a blended fabric to 'disintegrate' than it will the cotton fibers in a pure cotton fabric - when exposed to the same conditions.


JWG - you, Sir, do some amazing work. Thanks for taking the time to share the brilliant observations & insights.


...now...maybe I'm doing something wrong. :waitasec: With or without the lemon peel this time... :martini: