The Front Porch

[Sparklin]

Well, it's not...that I know of.

Most of us are going by DB's version(s) of that nite, as presented in various MSM interviews. None of which mentioned the kids playing outside.

I think this is one of the issues. We don't have EVERY detail of that night so we 'suppose' things that we haven't heard about. I said this to my hubby the other night -- there is no time line for when they used the washroom and that will become an issue. Just saying that there HAS to be more to the time line you know. They are very basic 6:40 .. 7:30 ... and so on. But no doubt the children came out, possibly played out, possibly asking for snacks, etc.. But with every detail no being filled in, people assume what they want and not everyone will be right

 

[Quiche]

I think it's possible the children fell asleep while watching the movie-- I also think it's possible that Lisa was asleep at that time of night (before SB gathered up and went home). In my mind's eye I can see DB snatching Lisa out of her bed, carrying her around, trying to rouse her, before taking her into her bedroom to do CPR on the floor. I think Lisa expired in that bedroom from either a shaking injury or an overdose of OTC cold medicine that was intended to make her sleep through DB's "adult" time.

What happened the rest of the night can go so many ways that I don't really have a grip on who was there and involved, besides DB.



You know, both DB and JI spent the evening/night in other people's company-- I wonder if LE has checked those folk's phones? Seems like every which way I look at it, some calls had to have been made. Did SB call someone for DB? Did a co-worker call someone for JI?

JI seems like a smart man, I could see him being a good chess player... what happened could actually get pretty complicated. MOO

 

[Boodles]

I think it's possible the children fell asleep while watching the movie-- I also think it's possible that Lisa was asleep at that time of night (before SB gathered up and went home). In my mind's eye I can see DB snatching Lisa out of her bed, carrying her around, trying to rouse her, before taking her into her bedroom to do CPR on the floor. I think Lisa expired in that bedroom from either a shaking injury or an overdose of OTC cold medicine that was intended to make her sleep through DB's "adult" time.

What happened the rest of the night can go so many ways that I don't really have a grip on who was there and involved, besides DB.



You know, both DB and JI spent the evening/night in other people's company-- I wonder if LE has checked those folk's phones? Seems like every which way I look at it, some calls had to have been made. Did SB call someone for DB? Did a co-worker call someone for JI?

JI seems like a smart man, I could see him being a good chess player... what happened could actually get pretty complicated. MOO

BBM. Interesting. I wonder if the cadaver dog hit on the baby's bed? We don't know whether the baby's mattress was removed as evidence, do we? Do we know if photos of the mattress inside the house exist after the cadaver dog search which was, I believe, Monday, October 17? I realize the warrant refers to the bedroom floor, but it may have simply omitted statements about additional hits for evidentiary reasons.

 

[DeAnn]

One of my sister in laws used the TV as a babysitter for her youngest child when he was that age. We have a nice balcony area that overlooks trees and creek but we tend to sit out front on our concrete driveway.

Them being out front versus back doesn't surprise me. If they were using the TV as a babysitter but wanted to be able to hear the kids (assuming the windows were open or something like that) then sitting out front makes sense. We know that Samantha's husband had moved out. It would only be human nature for Samantha and Debbie to want to go over in detail what was said during that hour long counseling session that SB and her husband had been through, that afternoon, what was said etc etc. This isn't verified but based on his timeline and others sounds like SB had gone to see Debbie while hubby was getting his things together and moving out. So SB wants to spill her guts to Debbie but doesn't want her four-year-old daughter to hear the intense conversation. So moms outside where they can talk privately, kids distracted by TV/movie but moms can still keep an ear on them.

 

[DeAnn]

BBM. Interesting. I wonder if the cadaver dog hit on the baby's bed? We don't know whether the baby's mattress was removed as evidence, do we? Do we know if photos of the mattress inside the house exist after the cadaver dog search which was, I believe, Monday, October 17? I realize the warrant refers to the bedroom floor, but it may have simply omitted statements about additional hits for evidentiary reasons.

I don't think so re baby's bed. That was a search warrant request and to get a judge's OK you would need to be as detailed as possible. If the baby's room had been hit on, I think they would have said that. Remember the cops thought only the judge would see it. The cops asked the judge to seal the search warrant. I am sure they were stunned the request was denied and it was made public. A search warrant would require them to be as detailed as possible to get the judge's signature and I'm sure they had every reason to think their request for it to be sealed would be granted.

 

[MysteryAddict]

I was also suspicious of the story of the women sitting out front on those uncomfortable cement steps for hours.

Now I think it could be so that the neighbor can keep an eye on the front of her own house
while drinking with DB.

 

[Boodles]

I don't think so re baby's bed. That was a search warrant request and to get a judge's OK you would need to be as detailed as possible. If the baby's room had been hit on, I think they would have said that. Remember the cops thought only the judge would see it. The cops asked the judge to seal the search warrant. I am sure they were stunned the request was denied and it was made public. A search warrant would require them to be as detailed as possible to get the judge's signature and I'm sure they had every reason to think their request for it to be sealed would be granted.

I assumed the opposite: that they included only enough information necessary to get the warrant approved, knowing that it might not be sealed as they hoped. I don't think they need to spill all their beans in a request for a warrant; just what is necessary to get past the approval threshold.

 

[DeAnn]

I was also suspicious of the story of the women sitting out front on those uncomfortable cement steps for hours.

Now I think it could be so that the neighbor can keep an eye on the front of her own house
while drinking with DB.

But could they not have sat in chairs that are on the back deck or are say in the garage?

We sit outside on our concrete drive but in chairs that we keep in our garage. Or maybe SB brought chairs over from her place. There's nothing to say they didn't sit outside in chairs that were put away when their conversation broke up at 10:30. If SB talked to police and told them she was outside talking to another neighbor between 10:30 and 11:30, I'm sure the cops have talked to that second neighbor to verify or undermine that story.

 

[DeAnn]

I assumed the opposite: that they included only enough information necessary to get the warrant approved, knowing that it might not be sealed as they hoped. I don't think they need to spill all their beans in a request for a warrant; just what is necessary to get past the approval threshold.

True but if you are going to mention a cadaver dog in the parents' bedroom, why wouldn't you mention cadaver dog in baby's bedroom? Why mention one but not the other?

 

[justamommy]

I don't find it unusual for people to use the front porch area rather than back. My husband and I have always sat out front. We are able to socialize with neighbors and watch our kids play.

As far as kids.... There have been a few occassions for get togethers with our neighbors/friends. Adults will usually sit around on porch and kids play inside; watching movies, playing dollhouse, Little People toys, video games, etc. When one of the moms goes in for bathroom break, drink refill, food... they will always check on kids. I wouldn't check on baby everytime I went in house if she was sleeping soundly. My other kids would come find me if baby was crying and I didn't hear it. I just can't imagine that these two women sat outside for four hours and never went back inside for something and while inside didn't check on other children. I don't believe that happened. jmo

I would also think that if DB had done something horrible or an accident had occurred her friend would have known something was up and not right. If DB did something she could have made up an excuse to get rid of friend that night so that she could have gone about the business of getting rid of baby. jmo

 

[LadyPirate]

One of my sister in laws used the TV as a babysitter for her youngest child when he was that age. We have a nice balcony area that overlooks trees and creek but we tend to sit out front on our concrete driveway.

Them being out front versus back doesn't surprise me. If they were using the TV as a babysitter but wanted to be able to hear the kids (assuming the windows were open or something like that) then sitting out front makes sense. We know that Samantha's husband had moved out. It would only be human nature for Samantha and Debbie to want to go over in detail what was said during that hour long counseling session that SB and her husband had been through, that afternoon, what was said etc etc. This isn't verified but based on his timeline and others sounds like SB had gone to see Debbie while hubby was getting his things together and moving out. So SB wants to spill her guts to Debbie but doesn't want her four-year-old daughter to hear the intense conversation. So moms outside where they can talk privately, kids distracted by TV/movie but moms can still keep an ear on them.

But the kids bedrooms were on the BACK of the house, not the front. They were watching the movie in the room with the bunk beds. I'm probably wrong, but it really seems that neither mother was very interested in what happened with their children on that evening.

 

[Sparklin]

But the kids bedrooms were on the BACK of the house, not the front. They were watching the movie in the room with the bunk beds. I'm probably wrong, but it really seems that neither mother was very interested in what happened with their children on that evening.

I'm sure they saw the kids plenty coming out to ask for snacks, drinks, 'he hit me' 'she pushed me' Just because we don't have those details doesn't mean that the didn't see the children all night long and actually I would never have assumed so.

 

[Angelonline]

My thoughts on the question-- Where were the kids while DB and the neighbor sat out front? -- I think DB put Lisa to bed around 6:30 then about 7 or 7:30 she put the boys and the neighbors little girl down to bed also. She probably made them a pallet or tucked the boys into the top bunk and the little girl into the bottom bunk and turned on a movie. If the boys were used to going to sleep this early (as some have said their kids go to bed at 7:30) then this would not have been unusual to them. In that case they would have most likely all fallen asleep sometime during the movie. Also she probably told them to not get up that it was bedtime.. something along the lines of "I will let you watch this movie as long as you don't get back up". That sounds plausible to me having known some parents who like to put their kids to bed early so they can have some adult time... However none of the ones I know have ever blacked out or lost their child in the process...

JMO JMO JMO

 

[justamommy]

My thoughts on the question-- Where were the kids while DB and the neighbor sat out front? -- I think DB put Lisa to bed around 6:30 then about 7 or 7:30 she put the boys and the neighbors little girl down to bed also. She probably made them a pallet or tucked the boys into the top bunk and the little girl into the bottom bunk and turned on a movie. If the boys were used to going to sleep this early (as some have said there kids go to bed at 7:30) then this would not have been unusual to them. In that case they would have most likely all fallen asleep sometime during the movie. Also she probably told them to not get up that it was bedtime.. something along the lines of "I will let you watch this movie as long as you don't get back up". That sounds plausible to me having known some parents who like to put their kids to bed early so they can have some adult time... However none of the ones I know have ever blacked out or lost their child in the process...

JMO JMO JMO

That theory does sound plausible. Especially since it was a school night. I didn't even think about early bedtime for little boys too. My son's bedtime is 8:00-8:30 and he's older than these boys. My son plays hard and sleeps hard. Maybe this is the case with these ones too.:twocents:

 

[gwenabob]

My sub doesn't allow fences unless the homeowners have an in-ground pool (very few, and no above-ground pools permitted). We don't have sidewalks, so it is rare to see children in front of their homes. Our street in particular has a fair amount of traffic because it's the entrance to the neighborhood which branches off into cul-de-sacs and one other long street. Even though the residential speed limit is 25mph, we've always had a problem with speeders - another reason why peeps don't hang out in front of the house.

bbm

Really? You can't fence your back yard so your kids will be safe? Or for your dog to run around without a leash? Anybody in the world could just walk into your backyard unfettered? I've never heard of such a thing. Sounds like a criminal's dream neighborhood. Easy in and out. Wow.

 

[Murphismo]

This is a very good point. What did a 4 yr old girl, iirc a 5 yr old boy, and an 8 yr old boy do all of that time? I can't imagine.

Ummmm, I can. They'd be running around like hellions, NOT using indoor voices, trashing the house, turning every light on, opening the fridge, leaving crumbs everywhere, dragging out toys, blankets, toilet plungers, finding stray cats, waking up Lisa, visiting her in the crib to stop her screaming (cause you know she'd want in on the action) :waitasec: maybe picking up BL, maybe dropping a baby?.....:twocents:

 

[frankie069]

Nope.... not even close. My theory is that DB either overdosed her or became angered in her standing in her crib and either shook her or threw her down hard in her crib, possibly breaking her neck or hitting her head.

I think that either Lisa was taken into DB's bedroom and put on the floor by the bed, possibly under a bunched up blanket or quilt and then locked her bedroom door so the kids couldn't get in. Most master bedrooms lock...I wonder if theirs did? I don't think Lisa was taken out of DB's room until her other little boy came into the bedroom and fell asleep. By this time, DB had already arranged for help OR, simply taken care of it herself. I do believe that she had help, not sure exactly who it is, but I still could see her doing it herself. That river is deep, fast moving and muddy.

But, the last part is pretty close. I think that she lost track of time being drunk (although I think she is a functioning drunk) and this is why the lights were all on. I think that she ran to her bed and pretended to be asleep when JI returned home.

Your theory is IDENTICAL to mine. I thought I wrote this myself.. Kudos..

 

[Murphismo]

I have a great back yard, but I still most always sit on the front steps, even if I'm just reading...I'm nosy and like to see the comings and goings of the neighbourhood

A NOSEY person on Websleuths????? nah.....:floorlaugh:

 

[frankie069]

I know that I myself would have been sitting in the back, especially if I was drinking outside. I would have locked the front door, opened the back door so I could hear the kids and then hung out with my friend, neighbor, whoever. I am not sure of the layout of the house, I know it was posted but was the living room by any chance where the back doors opened up to? That would have made it a lot easier to watch the kids at the same time.

EDIT: Ok after looking at the pics again I see there is no entrance from their deck so I have to admit, looks like a really strange set up to me, I have never seen one like they have so in this case, not being able to get into my house from the deck (it looks like you have to walk down a ramp and then to the front yard to get into the house), I would have sat in the front in those conditions.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

bbm

Really? You can't fence your back yard so your kids will be safe? Or for your dog to run around without a leash? Anybody in the world could just walk into your backyard unfettered? I've never heard of such a thing. Sounds like a criminal's dream neighborhood. Easy in and out. Wow.

Most subdivisions in these parts (suburban Detroit) have homeowner's associations with strict rules. DH and I have lived in three new homes in the same county since we've been married (40 years). We weren't allowed to have fences in any of these neighborhoods. When we had a dog, the pet was on a long tether in the backyard, and our dogs were walked or bike-walked several times daily. Unless invited, neighbors don't walk into other yards, and there is very little crime in this county. The only fences that are permitted are around the perimeter of inground pools, and our current neighborhood dictates the exact specifications for the fence. It's the way things are, and everyone knows the rules and expectations before they purchase the home.