I am continually in awe of the several of you who are so very dedicated to these women who became victims of an individual now known as the "LISK".. You all continue to sleuth, dig, and find the answers that so many are desperately in search of to attempt to make sense of what most of us will never even be able to truly comprehend in the depraved mind at work here.. I continue to follow along and find that you all cover so much(and truly with so very few of you in comparison to other national cases here at WS).. And in that superb job you all do in covering so much ground I rarely find that I'd have anything to add to what you all have thus far accomplished and therefor find myself following quietly along in lurkdom
..
I, too have similar feelings as to what some of you have expressed like Mountain_Kat did in saying she couldn't move on from "these girls" even if she wanted to.. Your dedication to these victims is obvious, MK and these victims I'm certain are cheering on in spirit ALL OF THOSE who are fighting for justice for "these girls".. Ya see that's what they are, "these girls".. They are girls, women, ladies even.. No different than many of you and I in that they are/were not only human beings, God's children, *but as well as they were mothers and daughters.. Sisters and aunts.. Granddaughters and cousins.. Just like many of you and I they were someone's family who loved them very much and whose lives have been forever altered by this evil that each of them crossed paths with.. The evil that snuffed out each of their young lives(and they ALL were still so very young with so very much life to live.. To give..) I know many ppl who DO NOT FEEL THIS WAY ABOUT THESE GIRLS OR ANY WHO SHARE IN THE LIFESTYLE/OCCUPATION THAT EACH WERE UNFORTUNATELY IN AT THE TIME OF THEIR DEATHS.. I know there are these type ppl because some are my very own family members, neighbors, acquaintances, co-workers who have outwardly expressed their disdain and judgement towards these victims!!.. And it's very angering to hear and see this type judgement heaved upon VICTIMS AND VICTIM'S FAMILIES.. I remind them they
ARE VICTIMS and no matter what anyone's personal opinion may be about a lifestyle or occupation.. NO MATTER WHAT THEY DID NOT DESERVE TO HAVE THEIR LIVES STOLEN AND ENDED IN SUCH A WAY AS THESE YOUNG GIRL's Have..*
And that's why I come here where there is an obvious overall respectful tone towards these girls even in light of full fledged discussions and details of what their lives as prostitutes entailed.. All of it, the good, bad, and the really ugly.. But these girls aren't disrespected or looked down upon here.. Their lives and their deaths are just as meaningful and just as important as any other life lost and here that is shown and seen to and by any/all who come here and read about the LISK and his victims.. Thank you to all of you who continue to add your input, thoughts, knowledge, experience, and all findings from the digging and sleuthing that continues being done in this case.. I know that I'm not alone in appreciating what each of you add..((((HUGS))))
Peter, I too have appreciated your detailed and thorough posts throughout this forum.. There is but one reoccurring detail/issue that I cannot for the life of me make sense of and I *must say it is a detail that is posted throughout many of the varying threads in the LISK forum.. Just a couple of them I have posted below and my poor attempts at making sense of each of them from each of the few posts that I snipped them from.. Respectfully, but yet wholeheartedly I continue to disagree with this detail..(links posted at the bottom)
The problem is, he may even operates out of LI, but we know in at least one of the cases, the victim made it back from the last client to NYC to the bus terminal. And the last John she had was in a hotel in NYC not far from the terminal at all, not in LI.
I do not understand the continued stating that one of the victims obviously wasn't murdered by a/the client(I've seen it worded as a and the "client") as she made it to the bus terminal.. Huh??????????
Except for Maureen making phone calls from the bus terminal ... Lets make this simple:*
1.) She came to Manhattan to meet with clients (her sister said so)
2.) The phone was pinged at the port authorities bus terminal (this is from LE). This is not even true
3.) She told friends, she needed a ride home, so her business was finished. (this is from the receivers of the phone call) BBM.. Again this is not true but rather ONLY a personal assumption
So, unless you claim, she had sex with the client at the bus terminal, her business with the client had ended a while ago because she obviously had already reached the bus terminal and had enough time to get robbed in between.
This in response to MK post could not be further from what the post stated
My comments to points in the post are highlighted in Red and BBM for specific emphasis..
Of course, it is also possible, she went in without seeing a client at all and it was someone totally else who she met ... or may, she made out a ride home (which everyone seems to deny now) in an hour and put a date in Long Island in, to shorten the waiting time ... but LI is alone an hour drive? Or wait, she met with a client, she left there (because she was later at the terminal), made out a ride home and the client followed her and killed her ... wait, why should he, after he had her earlier already in a controlled environment. Or, she had several clients, and not the last one killed her but the first one ... wait, that would have probably taken some attraction from her for the later clients ...
No, lets just follow Okam's razor for a moment. She was at the bus terminal. Whatever happened to her, it happened later to her. Why was she at the bus terminal in the first place? To ride home! That's the whole point.
Personal decision to disregard the first half which IMO is
Obviously a tad snark in referencing the victim being killed by a first John of the evening therefor her being dead would have made her quite unattractive to those johns that were to follow after she'd been murdered.. Really?!!!? :steam rolls outta ears:
Above portion BBM.. Actually we don't "know" what the "whole point was" for why the call was made "possibly" from the bus terminal, there could be an entire myriad of differing reasons for why she was there at that time.. The majority of them nothing to do with her going home
at the exact time she made the call but rather more indicative of her NOT LEAVING TO HEAD HOME AT THAT VERY MOMENT.. A few listed below:
- First and foremost is her stating that she'd been robbed of her up to that point earnings.. This IMO is the MOST obvious reason for why she was NOT heading home at that point, empty handed but rather was pretty in need of some quick turn tricks to compensate atleast some portion of the earnings she'd just been robbed of..[will expand further on this detail later in this post]
- her being at the bus terminal could have been for:
~ free wi-fi to connect to Craigslist to update her ad.. Place new ad offering more services for less/more money in her desperately wanting to recoup her losses(which IMO would have put her in a much less safety conscious frame of my mind) IMO she'd have been much more inclined to do things that she normally would not have done..ie.. Go places she normally would not, with ppl she normally would not,etc..etc
~as well as NY bus terminals would have paid type locker/storage space that would IMO be a likely place for her to keep any number of personal items there in NYC for when she came to town for "business" since she did NOT live locally..(I would also reason that with her having not always made the wisest choices/decisions that it'd not be out of the realm of possiblities that she just maybe even kept a small, or who knows even good size stash of cash there in the terminal's paid storage space/lockers).. Something such as this(cash stash) certainly wouldn't be shocking IMO but just giving examples of one of many personal items she'd have kept in such a place..
~another possibility is that the terminal served as a home base type location for her.. Maybe a regular locale for where she would agree to meet up with the johns at..and with her being robbed of her earnings I too could see that she may even be trolling this area for johns out of desperately wanting to recoup atleast part of the earnings of which she'd been robbed..
Those are just a couple off the top of my head of the endless amount of possibilities as to why she was at/around the bus terminal.. "IF" she was there when she'd made the call to friends/fam informing them of her having been robbed(again as MK has stated several times we haven't a clue as to the exact time of the call, nor the exact contents and context of the call). And honestly who really even knows for
certain that she was actually "at" the actual bus terminal when the call was made(AS IT IS
NOT TRUETHAT LE STATED THAT THIS CALL PINGED HER CELL AT THE BUS TERMINAL).. So, truly for all we know she'd said she'd "been" there, was there moments or hours prior, or flat out lied for a myriad of reasons unbeknownst to us.. But no matter the point remains the same that there is nothing IMO that in any way means that she was done, finished, and leaving NYC at/around the time she made that last phone call.. IMO its likely very much the exact opposite that she was very much determined to at the very least recoup a portion of those earnings of which she was robbed and that means that there were clients, johns, tricks that she was very much determined to still turn for a profit that night..
*The point I still stumble upon is, that Maureen left that client. Okay, she didn't deposit that money, but she made phone calls about she was robbed after that. Which still puts her in some place away from that client.
Above BBM is the point once again that this victim making phone call(s) stating she'd been robbed and the possibility that in atleast one of the calls she may have been at the bus terminal.. That this somehow equals that she had no clients AFTER THESE CALLS is what IMO is so nonsensical.. Imo If indicative of anything it'd be the complete opposite in that she would have been damn determined to recoup some of the monies of which she'd been robbed.. And again in that type situation I can see her taking risks that she normally would not have done had it not been for her being robbed of the money she'd thus far earned.. Therefor IMO creating a near perfect storm of events leading up to her being in the clutches of this killer.. Maybe, just maybe had she not have been robbed of that money she'd earned turning tricks thus far she would likely have not been in the same frame of mind(ie. not as desperate) and therefor possibly paying more attention to her gut instincts that I believe with all my heart each of these women AT SOME POINT(possibly different points for each female) but nonetheless AT SOME POINT EACH OF THEIR INSTINCTS WERE SET OFF SOUNDING THE BELLS OF ALARM that there was "something" not quite right, not standard, unusual, hinky, whatever words you want to use to describe the gutteral instincts that we, as females ARE ALL EQUIPPED WITH AND MUST PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THEM AS 99.9999999% THEY ARE DEAD ON ACCURATE FROM THE VERY, FIRST, SLIGHT PANG OF UNEASINESS WE FEEL..
Without a doubt I know each of these women felt this at some point, and I'd be willing to bet that with more than one of these women this first, slight pang possibly even came very early on in the situation.. Maybe even so early in that had "M" not have been in the frame of mind nearing desperation from having been robbed that she would have better listened to those instincts from that very first pang of feeling something was not quite right with the situation, more specifically with the John, likely the serial killer..
For those reasons I believe that this so called perfect storm of events leading up to what would be her very last trick to turn definitely could play a major role in why this particular victim was a successful kill for the SK(but that is an entirely different subject that can be delved into at a different time).
For all intents and purposes regarding this particular post my point is that I, personally could not disagree more with this avenue repeatedly stated throughout these threads about the fact that this particular victim having made one or more phone calls to fam/friends informing them that she'd been robbed of her earnings thus far.. Or that this victim possibly was at/around the bus terminal when one of those calls were made.. I couldn't disagree more that either or both of those details in anyway whatsoever equal that she had NO clients, johns, or tricks at any point thereafter..*
"the last John she had was in a hotel in NYC not far from the terminal at all, not in LI.."(snipped from above post)
Or worded as, "M left that client".. OR .."Which still puts her in some place away from that client."(snipped from above post)
"that client" that M was away from(meaning a John/trick turned prior to her being robbed) IMO has nothing to do with anything.. It's obvious she'd not met with foul play in terms of her being murdered at any of the times/clients prior to the robbery or the last known phone call(s).. Equally obvious IMO is that M, AFTER being robbed, and AFTER placing the phone call(s) had every intention to continue taking "clients", turning "tricks", and therefor recouping atleast a portion of the monies of which she'd been robbed.. It is that/those client(s) that M crossed paths with AFTER being robbed and placing the call(s) that is "the one" .. The same "one" *that for
certain atleast 3 other women(and quite possibly many more) crossed paths with and in turn were murdered and disposed of on GB as well..
**The following are links to
Peter Brendt's couple posts from this thread of which the above quotes are snipped as examples of the bus terminal/phone call home issue**
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The GB4 and Shannan Gilbert-Connecting the dots
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - The GB4 and Shannan Gilbert-Connecting the dots