The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

[UKGuy]

The more I think and read about it, I don't think the panties are very significant in the whole scheme of things. I think JBR wore them to the White's party and was later put to sleep in them. The fronts of the panties and the longjohns were urine stained and for someone to molest her, they just needed to pull down both items of clothing, wipe her off after and then pull the clothing back up.

When the panties were brought home in November, they probably were put in the bathroom drawer but were later moved elsewhere. I just do not see PR counting panties, noticing or remembering for certain what was or was not in JBRs on December 26.

I doubt that LE searched the whole house for size 12 Bloomies before Pam looted the place. For all we know the panties could have been in PRs dresser and were taken on the 28th by PP.

TeaTime,
If you read PR's above account regarding the size-12's then it does not match the investigators account, i.e. there was no size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer, did the mythical intruder take them with him?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Found it:
18 MR. WOOD: Do you have a precise
19 recollection of that event occurring where
20 all of a sudden something happened and you
21 decided it was some big deal?
22 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I
23 mean, my first thought is something in the
24 tabloids, but, you know, they get everything
25 wrong, so --
0093
1 Q. (By Mr. Kane) Okay. Were you
2 aware that these were the size of panties
3 that she was wearing, and this has been
4 publicized, it is out in the open, that they
5 were size 12 to 14? Were you aware of
6 that?
7 A. I have become aware of that, yes.
8 Q. And how did you become aware of
9 that?
10 A. Something I read, I am sure
…

AK

Anti-K,
So PR has a version of events that does not match the forensic evidence on both the pineapple snack and the size-12's.

I reckon she covering for another Ramsey, i.e. the case is definitely not PDI!

.

 

[TeaTime]

TeaTime,
If you read PR's above account regarding the size-12's then it does not match the investigators account, i.e. there was no size-12's in JonBenet's underwear drawer, did the mythical intruder take them with him?

.

No, I should have been more clear in stating that perhaps the big panties were put in JBRs drawer when they were brought home in November and then removed and stored elsewhere. I mention PRs dresser drawer as an example of where they may have been and therefore overlooked in the initial panty raids by LE, then they could have been removed by Pam during her looting of the home on the 28th.

 

[TeaTime]

Agreed. For what reason, though?

Why would he not say he removed the jeans? I may be horrible but I think that the sexual assault happened as she was being undressed in her bed, asleep. Maybe the big panties slipped down with the jeans and triggered some urge. Who knows what goes through the heads of people who are sexually attracted to their own children? JR's sweater fibers were found on her vaginal area which establishes that JRs sweater was in contact with JBR's naked bottom at some point. Why? I am sure there are innocent explanations. But putting 2 and 2 together, I deduce that he was the one to remove her jeans (from his words that I stated in earlier post), she was molested in her bed (urine on front of panties and longjohns and also in bed) and ended up with his sweater fibers in a place where they should not have been. Hmmmm.

 

[andreww]

Not meant to change your mind, but just to show the significance investigators attached to the so-called practice note when it was discovered:

During his examination of Patsy Ramsey’s notepad, Kithcart made a startling discovery. As he thumbed through the pad, looking at the handwriting, he noted what appeared to be the start of another ransom note. The words started out at the top of the page., as the addressing of a name would be written, “Mr and Mrs l” Kolar; p. 93

From Douglas/Olshaker; The Cases That Haunt Us, “As he was going through Patsy’s pad, Kithcart noticed something extraordinary, toward the middle of the tablet, a few words were written on a page in black, felt-tip pen: “Mr and Mrs,” along with a single downstroke that could have been the beginning of a capital R. the paper appeared the same as the one on which the ransom note was written. Apparently, this was a first draft, and after consideration, the writer had decided to address the note to Mr Ramsey only.

“What this meant, of course, is that police could now say with a fair degree of certainty that the three page ransom note was written in the Ramsey house, using their own pad and paper. This narrowed the scenario considerably. Either an intruder (or intruders) had spent a fair amount of time in the house undiscovered, or Jonbenet had been killed by one or more of the three individuals known to be in the house at the same time: John, Patsy, and Burke” p. 281

Thomas; p. 31:
“The case was breaking wide open on two different fronts. About the same time Ramsey found the body of his daughter, a detective discovered what would mark a turning point in the investigation, the existence of a possible practice ransom note in a tablet belonging to Patsy Ramsey”
“[Kithcart] flipped through the [notepad] bearing the word Patsy and, in the middle, noticed a page with a partial salutation written by a black felt-tip pen.
“Mr. and Mrs. I
“The single vertical line seemed as if it could be the downstroke that would start the capital letter R.”
.

Ramsey was asked for something that had his and hers handwriting. The notepad was there, but if RDI, it didn’t have to be there, and it didn’t have to have been used to begin with (especially when one considers that faking a kidnapping contradicts their supposed intent – explaining dead body in house.
…

AK

I'll bet anything that John was asked for those handwriting samples before 10:00 .

 

[andreww]

Why would he not say he removed the jeans? I may be horrible but I think that the sexual assault happened as she was being undressed in her bed, asleep. Maybe the big panties slipped down with the jeans and triggered some urge. Who knows what goes through the heads of people who are sexually attracted to their own children? JR's sweater fibers were found on her vaginal area which establishes that JRs sweater was in contact with JBR's naked bottom at some point. Why? I am sure there are innocent explanations. But putting 2 and 2 together, I deduce that he was the one to remove her jeans (from his words that I stated in earlier post), she was molested in her bed (urine on front of panties and longjohns and also in bed) and ended up with his sweater fibers in a place where they should not have been. Hmmmm.

Did you ever consider that the oversized panties were purposely purchased to allow easier access for an abuser?

 

[TeaTime]

No Andrew, that thought never entered my mind.

 

[pukasonqo2]

Information about the Bloomies being oversized was leaked from RGJ testimony. I don't know and I won't speculate how or by whom, but someone was feeding information from there to the tabloids. This is how existence of the oversized Bloomies became public knowledge and how (most likely) the Ramseys found out about the fact that investigators were looking into it. That information was published in the April 20, 1999, issue of The Globe (Below). The Ramseys were questioned about this (and other things that came out of the RGJ) in August, 2000. It's very much worth reading that interview (search link below for "bloomi" -- as it is spelled there) to see Patsy squirm and hedge her answers on things about which she obviously has "guilty knowledge". Knowing the size of panties JonBenet had on her body, Patsy tries to claim she usually bought size 8-10, even though every other pair found in JonBenet's room and scattered around the house was size 4-6. Even that snake Lin Wood gets involved making a desperate attempt to try and help her out by volunteering that his 11 year old son "wears underwear that potentially hangs down to his knees." :floorlaugh:

http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...amsey-BPD-Interviews-(Atlanta)-August-28-2000

also, the waist measure of size 6 undies to size 12 differs. JB would not only be wearing undies that "hang to her knees" but would have to constantly be holding them up to prevent them from falling to the ground
i still find absurd the idea that a woman that was so appearance conscious (or obsessed) as PR was would have a 6 yo wear something that might cause a major embarrassment in public as ill fitting undies falling to the ground or bulky clothing
the Rs must at all times, give the appearance of charm, class, elegance; that the house was a mess, the kids were having major toileting issues those were things better kept behind firmly closed doors


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[Annapurna]

Yeah puka, I agree with you. I find it ridiculously implausible that JB would have put those on herself. Having been a 6y.o. girl at one point, I can say with some certainty that I would have felt ridiculous and extremely uncomfortable in those undies. Just speaking for myself obviously, but I bet most women would say the same.

Good point about the waist measurement.

 

[TeaTime]

Well, on that particular night, the jeans would have kept panties up so there would be no embarrassing moments for PR as the panties would not be falling to the ground. And PR WAS wearing a jacket with at least one button being held on by a safety pin or tape. (Remember she almost wore the twin jacket PW had in 'error'). So although PR may have liked to leave the impression that she was fastidious and always impeccable, there were cracks in that varnished appearance. I don't think she would have given a rat's butt if JBR wore big panties and JBR was old enough to dress herself, so PR may not have any idea what was worn under the GAP outfit.

I think the panties are just an insignificant detail.

 

[andreww]

Well, on that particular night, the jeans would have kept panties up so there would be no embarrassing moments for PR as the panties would not be falling to the ground. And PR WAS wearing a jacket with at least one button being held on by a safety pin or tape. (Remember she almost wore the twin jacket PW had in 'error'). So although PR may have liked to leave the impression that she was fastidious and always impeccable, there were cracks in that varnished appearance. I don't think she would have given a rat's butt if JBR wore big panties and JBR was old enough to dress herself, so PR may not have any idea what was worn under the GAP outfit.

I think the panties are just an insignificant detail.

But surely they would have noticed them as they got her ready for bed? If JB put those panties on herself, Patsy is lying about getting her ready for bed.


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[TeaTime]

Andreww - exactly. She didn't undress JBR that night. I think JR did.

 

[Tawny]

She was wearing leggings that night, so giant oversized panties would have been bunched up and noticeable.

 

[OliviaG1996]

If JBR was wearing the over-sized size 12s that night, wouldn't the underwear have slid off along with the pants while being changed for bed? I have a hard time believing they would've stayed on. The person changing her likely would've noticed.

 

[Annapurna]

Well TeaTime, PR was involved in getting JB dressed that night. She wanted JB to wear the red turtleneck, but she declined. However she did choose to wear the velvet pants PR wanted her to wear, just with the shirt she chose. So PR was directly involved in dressing her daughter.

She did not put those panties on herself. If she did, why were they not found in her drawer where PR said she put them? They would have definitely fallen off when she was undressed (if she was undressed by her mother, which she probably wasn't because she probably walked into the house herself). Her mother would not have put them back on seeing how large they were (for a girl 40 pounds heavier remember). She would have put normal sized ones on her, especially because she was prone to wetting so special attention would have been given to her underthings.


This is off the wall but if anyone seriously believes she put them on herself, I challenge you to go to the store and buy some cheap panties that are made for a person twice your size. JB was 45 pounds, size 12s are for someone 85 pounds. Put them on even under pants and you will find them very uncomfortable and difficult to handle. Put them on under leggings if you'd like and you'll see how they bunch and twist. I'm not buying it.

They are significant IMO. They were put on her after death, so they are important.

 

[curiousjo]

Any little girl who is bedwetting will wear plastic pull ups. So, the underwear would have been changed when putting on nightgown. Kindergarteners can put on their own nightgown and pull-ups... my 6 yo niece does. However, if child asleep then the parent usually changes them into pull ups (as don't want accident with wet mattress that night) and may or may not change top.

PR intentionally chose the "WEDNESDAY" labelled underwear - because according to PR ----JB died on Christmas = WEDNESDAY that year. "Thursday" labelled underwear would have been incorrect as gravestone sites December 25th death = BEFORE midnight death... Thus, PR had to open the Xmas gift underwear and purposely selected the "WEDNESDAY" labelled underwear and angelic white clothing with Christmas star for JB to be laid to rest. Since the child was cleaned up, then re-dressed - I think PR did that. Any staging beyond that may have been her or PR. I saw a recent post theorizing that the kids were playing and JB wearing rope around her neck pretending to be a pet. That could have happened ----My 6 yo niece and 9 yo nephew have played a similar game, and I always jump up and say no - too dangerous to have something around the neck as may result in serious injury. But, kids do it.

 

[pukasonqo2]

they ( whomever dressed JB after the murder) could not put the correct size 6 undies on JB because they were either soiled/wet from JB having an accident or soiled/wet as a consequence of her murder and the day (xmas day) seems very significant to PR
did LP mentioned that JB was not using any pull-ups at night because PR thought that, somehow, some overnight accidents might help getting her get her toileting back on track eg: waking up in a cold, wet bed?



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[TeaTime]

I am sticking to my theory. PR didn't know about the big panties because JBR dressed herself and JR undressed her.

I think about that night and the horror of it all and can not imagine this was a quiet' event that people slept through no matter where they were in the house. At some point this little girl was dragged by her collar, (poster up thread clued me in on the triangular mark) sexually molested while still alive, (there was blood and bruising), hit in the head while alive, then strangled while still alive, wiped down and left swaddled in white with a sequined star on her chest, dead, in the basement wine cellar.

There had to be a verbal altercation before the child was yanked by her collar. Someone had to be mad to to this. Yanking a kid by the collar this hard is already a red stage anger. Maybe ST was right, this was all over toileting issues.

 

[pukasonqo2]

I am sticking to my theory. PR didn't know about the big panties because JBR dressed herself and JR undressed her.

I think about that night and the horror of it all and can not imagine this was a quiet' event that people slept through no matter where they were in the house. At some point this little girl was dragged by her collar, (poster up thread clued me in on the triangular mark) sexually molested while still alive, (there was blood and bruising), hit in the head while alive, then strangled while still alive, wiped down and left swaddled in white with a sequined star on her chest, dead, in the basement wine cellar.

There had to be a verbal altercation before the child was yanked by her collar. Someone had to be mad to to this. Yanking a kid by the collar this hard is already a red stage anger. Maybe ST was right, this was all over toileting issues.

if i remember well in PMPT, JR said he brought a sleeping JB into the house, either him or PR undressed and changed the sleeping JB, then JR claims to have read a story to a child that was, as per his own words, fast asleep
that has always struck me as odd, why read to a child that is so deeply asleep she does not wake up at all during all this


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[dogperson]

Redressing JBR in the too-large panties is a mistake another child might make, such as simply grabbing a pair out of a drawer and not realizing they are the wrong size. But if BR killed her, somehow I can't see him involved in the "undoing" or the "staging". He was still a child himself and even if he performed the assault, methodically hiding evidence or changing the scene seems a bit much for a boy his age.

Someone who did not live in the house or who was not familiar with kids' clothing sizes might also make the same mistake, but I don't hold to the intruder theory myself.

If one of the parents grabbed the too-large undies, they probably realized the mistake after they saw them on her, but perhaps thought it wouldn't matter or that it would lend credence to the theory that a member of the household did not assault or undress/redress JBR.