I agree about Burke. I think a kid thats just killed his sister would have a lot of things going on in his head, but forensic evidence and new panties probably wouldn't be his highest priority.
The oversized Bloomingdales panties.
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I agree about Burke. I think a kid thats just killed his sister would have a lot of things going on in his head, but forensic evidence and new panties probably wouldn't be his highest priority.
The over-large panties seem like a mistake a man would make. A child would not re-dress her. Men/boys can wear larger boxers and still be comfortable. Her mother would notice.
Perhaps the motivation behind the panties was not that they were just clean, they could have grabbed a clean pair from her drawer, but rather that they were new. If they were new then perhaps there wouldn't be the killer's DNA on it, it could have been thought.
No one is going to convince me she put those on herself. It just doesn't make any sense. It is so ridiculously improbable. Just by chance, the one day she chose to wear hugely oversized panties is the day she dies. Ok sure. What a coincidence.
Perhaps the motivation behind the panties was not that they were just clean, they could have grabbed a clean pair from her drawer, but rather that they were new. If they were new then perhaps there wouldn't be the killer's DNA on it, it could have been thought.
No one is going to convince me she put those on herself. It just doesn't make any sense. It is so ridiculously improbable. Just by chance, the one day she chose to wear hugely oversized panties is the day she dies. Ok sure. What a coincidence.
So we agree, either John or Patsy. You make a good point about Patsy not making that mistake, but lets back up a bit. Lets suppose Patsy was acting alone (possibly on Burke's behalf) in the basement. She decides that she wants to dispose of the size 6's because god knows what Burke had done to her. The problem now is; does she go all the way upstairs and risk waking John to get an fresh pair? And can she be sure that Burke's DNA won't be on any of the panties in her drawer? Patsy is the only person in that house that knows a fresh untouched set of panties lies in one of those wrapped packages. Its no coincidence IMO that those panties ended up on JB AND those packages all ended up being partially unwrapped.
Again, this is just one of numerous things that makes me believe that John wasn't involved. If they were acting together at that point, why wouldn't either of them have simply gone upstairs and got a clean, properly fitting pair of panties?
I think that is a good analysis, and I've thought that myself. Who else would know that the panties were wrapped up as a gift? PR herself stated they were a gift. Then her story gets real sketchy and weird, her language and phrasing becomes stuttered and distancing. It's clear that she wasn't 100% prepared to answer that question with certainty. If "we" made the decision to "just go ahead and use them" and put them in her drawer, then why weren't they found there?
One thing that seems consistent with the staging is most of the supplies could have been right there in the basement. The paintbrush was obviously, the panties may have been. Watching the Daily Beast video it appears there are a lot of decorative items in boxes, it's plausible that some kind of art supplies other than the paints were there also, and the cord could have been sourced from there. I think its possible that the tape was taken off of something else and it fell off, not that JR ripped it off when he found her.
I wonder if JR was a heavy sleeper. The whole upstairs is carpeted, it seems like not much sound would carry. However if someone was trying to get it all over with as quickly as possible then I could see not wanting to run all around the house. I suspect that the stager was wearing latex gloves taken from JAR's bathroom (open drawer in CS photos) from PR's cancer days. Just an idea though.
One thing that seems consistent with the staging is most of the supplies could have been right there in the basement. The paintbrush was obviously, the panties may have been. Watching the Daily Beast video it appears there are a lot of decorative items in boxes, it's plausible that some kind of art supplies other than the paints were there also, and the cord could have been sourced from there. I think its possible that the tape was taken off of something else and it fell off, not that JR ripped it off when he found her.
I wonder if JR was a heavy sleeper. The whole upstairs is carpeted, it seems like not much sound would carry. However if someone was trying to get it all over with as quickly as possible then I could see not wanting to run all around the house. I suspect that the stager was wearing latex gloves taken from JAR's bathroom (open drawer in CS photos) from PR's cancer days. Just an idea though.
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"Something else"? Something like boxes in the basement?
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Precisely! I thought a box also but I hadn't seen that photo. It is possible they were on a plastic box which would explain the relative lack of fibers compared to being on a cardboard box.
I notice that the white lidded box has what appears to be ribbon in it. I know I personally have string and cord in the same box as my ribbon.
PR sure did love christmas, the whole basement is covered in christmas decorations.
I notice that the white lidded box has what appears to be ribbon in it. I know I personally have string and cord in the same box as my ribbon.
PR sure did love christmas, the whole basement is covered in christmas decorations.
More likely A sexual incident. You may be right, though.
They used a flashlight, so someone was worried about disturbing somebody else.
Annapurna,
The killers dna might be on those size-12's, we have only been told about unmatched Ramsey dna, BR's touch-dna might be on those size-12's just as they were on the pink barbie nightgown?
The motivation behind the size-12's is probably that they must be a Wednesday Pair, in the eyes of the redresser this is what matters, notably we have never been told what Day of the Week underwear remained in JonBenet's underwear drawer, or elsewhere!
Patsy never redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, that leaves JR or BR.
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andreww,
Patsy knows redressing Jonbenet in size-12's would pose as many questions as those answered.
There was nothing to prevent Patsy from fetching another pair of size-6 underwear from anywhere, since her version of events includes not chaperoning JonBenet dressing for the White's Party, hence she could wear any Day Of The Week pair, period.
On Christmas afternoon, according to Kolar, Burke Ramsey opened the Partially Opened Christmas Gifts, so presumably he could have been aware that there was unopened underwear in the basement, which at that point was of no particular importance?
Any PDI theory must account for Patsy offering an inconsistent version of events, whilst knowing in advance that they would be so, i.e. size-12's and the pineapple-snack?
One inconsistency might be explained away as a lie, two suggests ignorance, hence the case is JDI or BDI?
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I think the adult who placed the underwear specifically wanted the "Wednesday" label, and size was irrelevant to them at that point. Remember, they had a whole week of underwear to chose from- and they chose Wednesday. It was intentional. Not an accident. A 9 yo boy would care less about the day of the week. Ultimately, JB was probably not redressed till Thursday.
You know, that's a good point about her not being redressed until Thursday. It reminds me of how they put December 25th on her gravestone.
It seems like someone may have been just grabbing things around them, the paintbrush was within reach and the rest of the supplies could have been near.
It seems like someone may have been just grabbing things around them, the paintbrush was within reach and the rest of the supplies could have been near.
In my opinion JBR dressed herself in those panties before the White's party. This is why PR didn't know about the huge bloomies until later. I do not believe that she was dressed in the pink nightie, otherwise there would be pink fibers in her hair, there weren't. If you look at JBR's bed, there were lots of things on the bed other than sheets and blankets, the pink nightie was just there in her bed as was the blanket. They got blood on them just because these items were under/around her.
I think JR undressed her ("I think I would have noticed if she didn't have any panties on"), put the leggings on her and she was molested in her bed, face down.
I think the rest of the huge panties were not found because PR had moved them and forgot (she had chemo brain) and LE didn't toss PR's dresser drawers before Auntie Pam looted the place.
I think JR undressed her ("I think I would have noticed if she didn't have any panties on"), put the leggings on her and she was molested in her bed, face down.
I think the rest of the huge panties were not found because PR had moved them and forgot (she had chemo brain) and LE didn't toss PR's dresser drawers before Auntie Pam looted the place.
The problem with what you are saying is that you are picking and choosing what Ramsey testimony you want to believe. Example being the presents. Why do you believe Burke opened them? Burke had just opened a slew of presents and received a Nintendo that he seemed to be thrilled with. I doubt that within mere hours the novelty would have worn off enough to the extent that he would go hunting for something else. Besides, he'd had a busy day with presents, breakfast, playing with friends, and then having to ready for an early evening at the White's. Doesn't make any sense that he would hunt for new toys when he knew he couldn't play with them anyway.
It makes more sense that Patsy was down there and wanted the panties. Opening that one package would point right at her, so she simply opened all of them.
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Let me ask you what could possibly have changed Patsy's mind about giving them as a gift? The panties were useless to anyone in the Ramsey home, so why not send them to the niece? Even if you decide to get her a different gift, you include the panties IMO.
It would be like me buying an underwear set for my wife as a gift. Then I decide at the last minute to buy her some jewellery. Do I keep the underwear set for myself? Of course not, it simply makes no sense. And besides that, the physical evidence doesn't support the theory that JB put them on herself. If she did, the package would have been right in the underwear drawer where Patsy claimed to have put it.
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Not really sure how you've jumped to the conclusion that it was Burke or John that was responsible and that Patsy had nothing to do with it? Nothing you've said points to that conclusion at all.
As far as selecting the Wednesday pair, I think most people would have. Before or after midnight, most people would have considered it to be Christmas (Wednesday) night. Peoples calendars don't flip at midnight, the usually flip when they wake up the next day. Even Burke probably would have chosen the Wednesday pair IMO.
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andreww,
Because James Kolar said so.
Who knows, maybe he was looking for stuff to trade, maybe he was just bored and curious, but it does display his attitude.
em, why open all of them and then remove the remaining size-12's?
No, I am inferring from the Ramsey version of events that explicitly conflict with the forensic evidence.
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andreww,
BBM: I never said Patsy had nothing to do with it, so do not misrepresent me. What I'm saying particularly to people who think the case is PDI that they must explicitly explain away PR's inconsistencies.
If the case was PDI then Patsy would have a more consistent and coherent version of events that would encompass the size-12's and the pineapple-snack, she does not, so I reckon she is covering for another Ramsey, plain and simple.
Similarly for JDI with all his stories about stuff in the basement, i.e. the window, the chair, the suitcase, JonBenet being put to bed asleep, and BR being asleep in bed when he was present at the 911 call.
Any size-6 pair of underwear would have sufficed. Nobody outside the Ramsey household would have batted an eyelid at any other Day Of the Week underwear, only a Ramsey!
Sure, particularly Burke if he wants everything to look similar to what they were prior to any alleged assault, its especially the kind of mistake a young male would make!
Those size-12's were placed on JonBenet by a male, no woman seeking to mask prior events would select the size-12's, naked is better since no obvious mistake is made!
Patsy and John likely restaged the crime-scene a few times, iteratively removing forensic evidence, breaking windows, washing clothing, moving furniture and suitcases around, with JR possibly relocating JonBenet into the wine-cellar mid-morning, confirming what Fleet White saw, hence the white blanket ... it acts as a forensic buffer for JR and if he knows he intends to find her then makes picking her up is imperative so to confound forensic analysis!
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I think you are thinking a lot broader than the conversation here UKGuy. We were talking about the panties and you said;
Patsy never redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, that leaves JR or BR.
So yes, you did say exactly that.
Again, not sure what you are saying here, but lets break this down logically. Actually NO panties were required because she was dead. Putting clean panties on here does nothing to hide DNA or any forensic evidence. New underwear is simply an attempt to mask the fact that a sexual assault ever happened, or to give the appearance of normalcy. Obviously the size 12s don't give a normal impression at all. So lets look at each possible perp.
Burke - He is certainly a suspect and his DNA is on the pineapple and at the crime scene. If his statement is true, he also opened all those presents and might have had an idea where the size 12s were. But you have to be willing to believe that Burke, in a panic, had the presence of mind to wipe her down without leaving any additional DNA evidence on her, then dress her in the panties without leaving any DNA on them. Doesn't sound likely to me.
Patsy - Patsy was the person most likely to know the location of those panties. If she was acting alone or on Burke's behalf, she may not have wanted to risk going upstairs for fear of waking John, so she uses the convenient size 12s then rips open the other parcels to make it appear that the kids were snooping. Its also possible that she feared Burke's DNA may be on some of JB's other underwear. Best go with an oversize clean pair than taking a risk.
John - Lets face it, John probably wouldn't have had a clue as to where those size 12s were. If he was working in cahoots with Patsy, he simply could have gone upstairs and got a proper pair. Doesn't seem likely.
I don't agree with that at all. Logic isn't gender biased.
Maybe, maybe not. Things like the blanket mean nothing because if John was planning on finding her his DNA and fibres would mean nothing. If LE had found her it would have been harder for them to explain, but they didn't find her so it doesn't matter.
There was no redressing. JBR was murdered in the same exact clothes that she was put to bed in. Her panties and longjohns were pulled back into place but they were the same she wore to bed.
The opened package of panties was not in the basement in some state of being partially unwrapped. She was not washed down in the basement and the huge panties were not put on her there. Everything was done in her room and while she was in her bed. Plus, JBR claimed the panties immediately upon PRs return from NYNY. IIRC even PR's friends heard the story about JBR wanting the huge panties, and JBR saying that she would "grow into them".
The panties, like the red clothes, are a red herring.
The opened package of panties was not in the basement in some state of being partially unwrapped. She was not washed down in the basement and the huge panties were not put on her there. Everything was done in her room and while she was in her bed. Plus, JBR claimed the panties immediately upon PRs return from NYNY. IIRC even PR's friends heard the story about JBR wanting the huge panties, and JBR saying that she would "grow into them".
The panties, like the red clothes, are a red herring.