The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

[CorallaroC]

There was no redressing. JBR was murdered in the same exact clothes that she was put to bed in. Her panties and longjohns were pulled back into place but they were the same she wore to bed.

The opened package of panties was not in the basement in some state of being partially unwrapped. She was not washed down in the basement and the huge panties were not put on her there. Everything was done in her room and while she was in her bed. Plus, JBR claimed the panties immediately upon PRs return from NYNY. IIRC even PR's friends heard the story about JBR wanting the huge panties, and JBR saying that she would "grow into them".

The panties, like the red clothes, are a red herring.

Hi TeaTime,
With reference to your post above (items BBM) I do not recall any source(s) pertaining to these two things you mention, so I have doubts and would like to know where you obtained this info, TIA.
1) JBR claiming the size-12's early on?
2) family friends knowing about it? and/or stating that JBR talked about "growing into them" ???

If this is just speculation, we should keep it clearly separated from the known facts IMO. Not attacking your post of course.

 

[UKGuy]

andreww,

I think you are thinking a lot broader than the conversation here UKGuy. We were talking about the panties and you said;

Patsy never redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, that leaves JR or BR.


So yes, you did say exactly that.


Again, not sure what you are saying here, but lets break this down logically. Actually NO panties were required because she was dead. Putting clean panties on here does nothing to hide DNA or any forensic evidence. New underwear is simply an attempt to mask the fact that a sexual assault ever happened, or to give the appearance of normalcy. Obviously the size 12s don't give a normal impression at all. So lets look at each possible perp.

Burke - He is certainly a suspect and his DNA is on the pineapple and at the crime scene. If his statement is true, he also opened all those presents and might have had an idea where the size 12s were. But you have to be willing to believe that Burke, in a panic, had the presence of mind to wipe her down without leaving any additional DNA evidence on her, then dress her in the panties without leaving any DNA on them. Doesn't sound likely to me.

Patsy - Patsy was the person most likely to know the location of those panties. If she was acting alone or on Burke's behalf, she may not have wanted to risk going upstairs for fear of waking John, so she uses the convenient size 12s then rips open the other parcels to make it appear that the kids were snooping. Its also possible that she feared Burke's DNA may be on some of JB's other underwear. Best go with an oversize clean pair than taking a risk.

John - Lets face it, John probably wouldn't have had a clue as to where those size 12s were. If he was working in cahoots with Patsy, he simply could have gone upstairs and got a proper pair. Doesn't seem likely.




I don't agree with that at all. Logic isn't gender biased.




Maybe, maybe not. Things like the blanket mean nothing because if John was planning on finding her his DNA and fibres would mean nothing. If LE had found her it would have been harder for them to explain, but they didn't find her so it doesn't matter.

I think you are thinking a lot broader than the conversation here UKGuy. We were talking about the panties and you said;

Patsy never redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, that leaves JR or BR.


So yes, you did say exactly that.

I arrived at Patsy did not dress JonBenet in the size-12's, so why is that not specific, i.e. size-12's.

Its also possible that she feared Burke's DNA may be on some of JB's other underwear. Best go with an oversize clean pair than taking a risk.

BR's touch-dna might already be on JonBenet's body? Also either JR's or BR's touch-dna could be on the size-12's, we only know about unmatched Ramsey dna on the size-12's.

I don't agree with that at all. Logic isn't gender biased.

People are though!

If LE had found her it would have been harder for them to explain, but they didn't find her so it doesn't matter.

Impeccable logic, eh? It does not matter since JR pulled it off.

The case, by elimination, is BDI since both PDI and JDI offer incoherent and inconsistent accounts.

.

 

[UKGuy]

I think you are thinking a lot broader than the conversation here UKGuy. We were talking about the panties and you said;

Patsy never redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, that leaves JR or BR.


So yes, you did say exactly that.


Again, not sure what you are saying here, but lets break this down logically. Actually NO panties were required because she was dead. Putting clean panties on here does nothing to hide DNA or any forensic evidence. New underwear is simply an attempt to mask the fact that a sexual assault ever happened, or to give the appearance of normalcy. Obviously the size 12s don't give a normal impression at all. So lets look at each possible perp.

Burke - He is certainly a suspect and his DNA is on the pineapple and at the crime scene. If his statement is true, he also opened all those presents and might have had an idea where the size 12s were. But you have to be willing to believe that Burke, in a panic, had the presence of mind to wipe her down without leaving any additional DNA evidence on her, then dress her in the panties without leaving any DNA on them. Doesn't sound likely to me.

Patsy - Patsy was the person most likely to know the location of those panties. If she was acting alone or on Burke's behalf, she may not have wanted to risk going upstairs for fear of waking John, so she uses the convenient size 12s then rips open the other parcels to make it appear that the kids were snooping. Its also possible that she feared Burke's DNA may be on some of JB's other underwear. Best go with an oversize clean pair than taking a risk.

John - Lets face it, John probably wouldn't have had a clue as to where those size 12s were. If he was working in cahoots with Patsy, he simply could have gone upstairs and got a proper pair. Doesn't seem likely.




I don't agree with that at all. Logic isn't gender biased.




Maybe, maybe not. Things like the blanket mean nothing because if John was planning on finding her his DNA and fibres would mean nothing. If LE had found her it would have been harder for them to explain, but they didn't find her so it doesn't matter.

andreww,

I think you are thinking a lot broader than the conversation here UKGuy. We were talking about the panties and you said;

Patsy never redressed JonBenet in those size-12's, that leaves JR or BR.


So yes, you did say exactly that.

I arrived at Patsy did not dress JonBenet in the size-12's, so why is that not specific, i.e. size-12's.

Its also possible that she feared Burke's DNA may be on some of JB's other underwear. Best go with an oversize clean pair than taking a risk.

BR's touch-dna might already be on JonBenet's body? Also either JR's or BR's touch-dna could be on the size-12's, we only know about unmatched Ramsey dna on the size-12's.

I don't agree with that at all. Logic isn't gender biased.

People are though!

If LE had found her it would have been harder for them to explain, but they didn't find her so it doesn't matter.

Impeccable logic, eh? It does not matter since JR pulled it off.

The case, by elimination, is BDI since both PDI and JDI offer incoherent and inconsistent accounts.

.

 

[CorallaroC]

Hi UKGuy, plz pardon me for interrupting....

I am not sure what you mean by "unmatched Ramsey DNA".
(your post#742 above)

Which sample or samples are you referring to? TIA

 

[UKGuy]

Hi UKGuy, plz pardon me for interrupting....

I am not sure what you mean by "unmatched Ramsey DNA".
(your post#742 above)

Which sample or samples are you referring to? TIA

CorallaroC,
Any Ramsey touch-dna left on the size-12's, say by either JR or BR. We have only been told about the dna that does not match that of the Ramseys, i.e. unmatched or non-matching.

ETA: also by most RDI theories, no Ramsey dna should be on those size-12's, since they are clean on!

.
.

 

[andreww]

CorallaroC,
Any Ramsey touch-dna left on the size-12's, say by either JR or BR. We have only been told about the dna that does not match that of the Ramseys, i.e. unmatched or non-matching.

ETA: also by most RDI theories, no Ramsey dna should be on those size-12's, since they are clean on!

.
.

Because whoever re-dressed her was wearing gloves by that point, and was likely smarter than a nine year old boy.

If Ramsey DNA had been found on those panties we'd know about it, Kolar's lips aren't that tight. Ether John or Patsy put those size 12s on her.


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[andreww]

There was no redressing. JBR was murdered in the same exact clothes that she was put to bed in. Her panties and longjohns were pulled back into place but they were the same she wore to bed.

The opened package of panties was not in the basement in some state of being partially unwrapped. She was not washed down in the basement and the huge panties were not put on her there. Everything was done in her room and while she was in her bed. Plus, JBR claimed the panties immediately upon PRs return from NYNY. IIRC even PR's friends heard the story about JBR wanting the huge panties, and JBR saying that she would "grow into them".

The panties, like the red clothes, are a red herring.

I still don't see any explanation as to where the rest of the panties were. If JB put them on, they'd be in he drawer. If Patsy put them on, they'd be in the drawer. But they weren't in the drawer were they?


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[ILikeToBendPages]

I think that is a good analysis, and I've thought that myself. Who else would know that the panties were wrapped up as a gift? PR herself stated they were a gift. Then her story gets real sketchy and weird, her language and phrasing becomes stuttered and distancing. It's clear that she wasn't 100% prepared to answer that question with certainty. If "we" made the decision to "just go ahead and use them" and put them in her drawer, then why weren't they found there?

One thing that seems consistent with the staging is most of the supplies could have been right there in the basement. The paintbrush was obviously, the panties may have been. Watching the Daily Beast video it appears there are a lot of decorative items in boxes, it's plausible that some kind of art supplies other than the paints were there also, and the cord could have been sourced from there. I think its possible that the tape was taken off of something else and it fell off, not that JR ripped it off when he found her.

I wonder if JR was a heavy sleeper. The whole upstairs is carpeted, it seems like not much sound would carry. However if someone was trying to get it all over with as quickly as possible then I could see not wanting to run all around the house. I suspect that the stager was wearing latex gloves taken from JAR's bathroom (open drawer in CS photos) from PR's cancer days. Just an idea though.

John Ramsey took melatoin help him sleep.

 

[curiousjo]

Let's face it- when a family is going to go on a trip--- the wife tends to be the one staying up late getting everyone packed! They didn't get home till 10 PM. Odds are a tired PR still had hours of packing for a double header trip to Michigan and Florida. That would entail packing both winter clothes and warm weather clothing! She would have been up past midnight! Makes for very limited timeline for intruder to do this. To top it all off, PR chose to site date of death as Dec 25 on JB gravestone. That means she died < 2 hours after returning home ... And PR would have still been up packing! JR was up late too, as he was with BR in basement train room! They were all up!

 

[TeaTime]

There are many inconsistencies in what the R family told LE in the beginning and later after 4 months of reflection.

I don't understand why some posters insist that the huge panties had to be replacement panties rather than JBR putting them on herself. The huge panties were sourced to the house and therefore not brought in by any intruder. After this is established the panties are insignificant. It doesn't matter when or where they were put on JBR at all although I think she had them on when put to bed and that seems proven by the urine on the clothes and the bed.

 

[Ellie9]

There are many inconsistencies in what the R family told LE in the beginning and later after 4 months of reflection.

I don't understand why some posters insist that the huge panties had to be replacement panties rather than JBR putting them on herself. The huge panties were sourced to the house and therefore not brought in by any intruder. After this is established the panties are insignificant. It doesn't matter when or where they were put on JBR at all although I think she had them on when put to bed and that seems proven by the urine on the clothes and the bed.

I think people find it significant because if they were put on her during staging or some kind of clean-up effort, this is just another item used from the house itself, which means that it's much less likely an intruder was involved. It'd mean he'd have to be going around collecting everything from the house without waking anyone up, and also while knowing where everything was somehow.

It doesn't make or break the case for either side at all, but it would be fairly significant if they were put on her during staging. Like everything else I think this is just a piece of a puzzle, but it could be a decent sized piece of the puzzle depending on the circumstances.

 

[andreww]

There are many inconsistencies in what the R family told LE in the beginning and later after 4 months of reflection.

I don't understand why some posters insist that the huge panties had to be replacement panties rather than JBR putting them on herself. The huge panties were sourced to the house and therefore not brought in by any intruder. After this is established the panties are insignificant. It doesn't matter when or where they were put on JBR at all although I think she had them on when put to bed and that seems proven by the urine on the clothes and the bed.

Your logic is a little skewed here. The importance of the panties was that they were a gift for somebody else and should have been wrapped and hidden away. There was only one person who knew exactly where they were, and another that was supposed to have ripped open those parcels earlier in the day.

Of course this was another opportunity LE missed in questioning. Where were the questions like "why did you decide not to give Jenny the underwear?" Or "what did you buy her instead and where is that gift?"

If the underwear are in fact a false lead, why did the package disappear? They weren't in the basement and they weren't in JBs drawer, so where the hell were they? Someone hid those panties away and that tells me that this is much more than a false lead.


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[andreww]

There are many inconsistencies in what the R family told LE in the beginning and later after 4 months of reflection.

I don't understand why some posters insist that the huge panties had to be replacement panties rather than JBR putting them on herself. The huge panties were sourced to the house and therefore not brought in by any intruder. After this is established the panties are insignificant. It doesn't matter when or where they were put on JBR at all although I think she had them on when put to bed and that seems proven by the urine on the clothes and the bed.

Let's get one thing straight, JB was a chronic bed wetter. There was going to be urine in the bed. It does not mean it came from that day, week or year. Once it's in the mattress or comforter its there for a long time.

That is unless the bed was wet, but I haven't heard that it was.


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[andreww]

Let's face it- when a family is going to go on a trip--- the wife tends to be the one staying up late getting everyone packed! They didn't get home till 10 PM. Odds are a tired PR still had hours of packing for a double header trip to Michigan and Florida. That would entail packing both winter clothes and warm weather clothing! She would have been up past midnight! Makes for very limited timeline for intruder to do this. To top it all off, PR chose to site date of death as Dec 25 on JB gravestone. That means she died < 2 hours after returning home ... And PR would have still been up packing! JR was up late too, as he was with BR in basement train room! They were all up!

Again the information we have is all over the place about this. From what I understand is that the Ramsey's kept separate wardrobes at the Michigan home, so they really didn't need to pack. However, there are inconsistencies here. John states he was at the airport all day packing their luggage and Christmas gifts. Then we have some bags of clothes that LE asked about that are said to be more clothes for the Michigan trip. The Patsy states that upon arriving home she is getting more things ready for the trip. And we haven't even talked about the Christmas gifts in the basement. Considering the Ramsey's were about to depart on back to back vacations, one has to wonder when those gifts were planning to be delivered?


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[UKGuy]

Because whoever re-dressed her was wearing gloves by that point, and was likely smarter than a nine year old boy.

If Ramsey DNA had been found on those panties we'd know about it, Kolar's lips aren't that tight. Ether John or Patsy put those size 12s on her.


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andreww,

Because whoever re-dressed her was wearing gloves by that point, and was likely smarter than a nine year old boy.

We really expect to see PR's touch-dna on those size-12's. Since she said she redressed JonBenet in the longjohns.

Only knowing that there actually is an absence of Ramsey dna can we infer the possibility of the redresser wearing gloves.

If Ramsey DNA had been found on those panties we'd know about it, Kolar's lips aren't that tight. Ether John or Patsy put those size 12s on her.

Also you can bet your bottom dollar that the R's would have made it public big time if there was no Ramsey dna on the size-12's, my money is on BR's touch-dna being present on the size-12's?

I do not buy Patsy's version of events, if she had re-dressed JonBenet there would be no size-12's, I reckon she is covering for someone else's handywork?


.

 

[andreww]

andreww,

We really expect to see PR's touch-dna on those size-12's. Since she said she redressed JonBenet in the longjohns.

Only knowing that there actually is an absence of Ramsey dna can we infer the possibility of the redresser wearing gloves.


Also you can bet your bottom dollar that the R's would have made it public big time if there was no Ramsey dna on the size-12's, my money is on BR's touch-dna being present on the size-12's?

I do not buy Patsy's version of events, if she had re-dressed JonBenet there would be no size-12's, I reckon she is covering for someone else's handywork?


.

Thats a really frustrating problem with this case, that there is nobody to ask those simple questions to. Like was Ramsey DNA found on the panties? Whose exactly? That is what makes these panties so vitally important, the fact that the were sealed and probably the only thing in that house that shouldn't contain Ramsey DNA. Patsy took responsibility for dressing JB, so if John or Burke's DNA is on them its a big clue.

 

[TeaTime]

Your logic is a little skewed here. The importance of the panties was that they were a gift for somebody else and should have been wrapped and hidden away. There was only one person who knew exactly where they were, and another that was supposed to have ripped open those parcels earlier in the day.

Maybe not. PR stated that the panties were bought with the intention of giving them away as a gift but that plan changed when JBR saw the panties and wanted them so PR put them in JBR's drawer. This happened upon the return from NYNY in November. Therefore, there is no reason the panties should have been wrapped at all and no one, not one person, has suggested the panties were wrapped or that the wrapped package of panties was one of those ripped open.

r
f course this was another opportunity LE missed in questioning. Where were the questions like "why did you decide not to give Jenny the underwear?" Or "what did you buy her instead and where is that gift?"

There is simply no point in asking these questions. First, PR already answered one of these before being asked; she already told them why she made the decision to not give the panties to Jenny; it was because JBR wanted them. And whatever PR intended to give Jenny instead of the panties has no relevance whatsoever once the panties were sourced to the house by the mother of the dead child.

If the underwear are in fact a false lead, why did the package disappear? They weren't in the basement and they weren't in JBs drawer, so where the hell were they? Someone hid those panties away and that tells me that this is much more than a false lead.

I say that they weren't ever wrapped or even supposed to be wrapped, therefore no need for them to be in the basement and they were not hidden but rather that the remaining panties were removed from JBR's drawer by PR and/or Linda the housekeeper and PR either didn't know it, or forgot about it. It is a rather insignificant detail from the past, not worth remembering. The facts are that LE returned to the house to collect some panties of JBR's. There were two collections by LE before LE knew that the huge panties were bought by PR. LE didn't find them in JBR's bathroom drawer or her room. Fine. They may have been, and I suggest they were, in PR's dresser or bathroom drawer.

The collection of JBR's panties happened on 12/27, PR's underwear was not taken by LE and Pam was there on 12/28, looting the place. It is my opinion that Pam collected all of PR's underwear and the panties were in her dresser or bathroom drawer and Pam packed them up and took them. Probably unintentionally.

IF the R's were trying to use the big Bloomies as evidence of an intruder, and then hid them after the crime because they deduced that LE would search JBR's panty drawer, (I doubt that one) and even told PAM to collect them during her looting, do you think PR would have told LE about buying them, giving them to JBR and telling LE where she put them? Of course not. She would have said "I don't know there they came from".

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When I hear hooves, I try not to think "zebras" (unless I am in Africa) and I believe that the panties have been explained away.

My responses are in blue.

 

[TeaTime]

Let's get one thing straight, JB was a chronic bed wetter. There was going to be urine in the bed. It does not mean it came from that day, week or year. Once it's in the mattress or comforter its there for a long time.

That is unless the bed was wet, but I haven't heard that it was.


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Yes, the child was a chronic bed wetter and in fact when she was found, she had fresh urine stains on her sheet and the front of the big Blooomies and longjohns. Her mattress may have been stained from the past but I am talking about her sheet. Sheets do not have to be wet to know if the urine is fresh, just hold them up to your nose. Didn't Linda the housekeeper tell LE that PR used a plastic or rubber mattress cover to keep the mattress from getting wet? So, unless of course, you think her parents put her to sleep on freshly stained sheets, which I do not believe, then I say she wet herself while face down in her bed and while wearing the big Bloomies.

 

[TeaTime]

I think people find it significant because if they were put on her during staging or some kind of clean-up effort, this is just another item used from the house itself, which means that it's much less likely an intruder was involved. It'd mean he'd have to be going around collecting everything from the house without waking anyone up, and also while knowing where everything was somehow.

Because the sheet, BBs and LJs were freshly stained with urine, we must use some logic and that logic tells me that JBR wet herself while face down in her bed, wearing the BBS. There is nothing to suggest that her panties were changed after she got home. PR says she didn't notice BBS, JR said he thinks he would have noticed if she had no panties on. Neither can say what panties she wore, therefore the distinct possibility is that she wore them to the White's and then to bed. It is no different that finding her in her longjohns and star Tee shirt; it is simply what she was wearing to sleep in that night and she was killed in the clothes she slept in. All it would take is for the bottoms to be pulled down before the assault and then back up after wiping her down.


It doesn't make or break the case for either side at all, but it would be fairly significant if they were put on her during staging. Like everything else I think this is just a piece of a puzzle, but it could be a decent sized piece of the puzzle depending on the circumstances.

I do not understand how finding JBR in panties were given to her in November by PR would be significant if they were placed on her during the staging of the crime. IS it not possible that one pair from the package was left in JBRs room and she chose to wear them? Of course it is possible and I say probable. If PR were trying to hide something nefarious about the panties she would deny ever having them in the house. She would have said "OMG that sick SOB brought giant Wednesday panties to put on my child after he raped her, why would he do that?" She didn't.

 

[TeaTime]

Again the information we have is all over the place about this. From what I understand is that the Ramsey's kept separate wardrobes at the Michigan home, so they really didn't need to pack. However, there are inconsistencies here. John states he was at the airport all day packing their luggage and Christmas gifts. Then we have some bags of clothes that LE asked about that are said to be more clothes for the Michigan trip. The Patsy states that upon arriving home she is getting more things ready for the trip. And we haven't even talked about the Christmas gifts in the basement. Considering the Ramsey's were about to depart on back to back vacations, one has to wonder when those gifts were planning to be delivered?


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Yes, some clothes had been packed aboard the plane and there were, I believe, snow or even ski suits in plastic bags near the kitchen waiting to be taken to the plane. The Christmas gifts that were packed on the plane were for the other R children that were to meet them in Charlevoix and no doubt more gifts for JBR and BK as they were having a second Christmas celebration in MI. The packages in the basement were for a different set of relatives and were to be mailed but PR didn't get to it before having to leave for vacation. I guess she would be sending them later on. I don't see a big issue here or anything out of the ordinary.