The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties.

[OliviaG1996]

(BBM) *gasp*

You mean there was feces in the toilets? Don't any of the BDIs think it's odd that feces were still in the toilet and Burke didn't take them and smear them all over the walls, or the ceiling, or the furniture?

There's only been evidence he smeared his own feces, and there were smears on the basement bathroom walls.

 

[Ambitioned]

I read that there's the Craven Silence on Kindle. They link to a crime scene video where poo is smeared on walls in hall. I can't confirm though since I haven't read it.

 

[UKGuy]

16 TOM HANEY: How about 378?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is JonBenet's floor, her
18 pants.
19 TOM HANEY: Do you recall those particular
20 pants, when she would have worn those last?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not for sure. Probably
22 recently because they are dropped in the middle of the
23 floor, but I don't remember exactly.
24 TOM HANEY: They are kind of inside out.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
0457
1 TOM HANEY: 379 is a close up of it. It
2 appears they are stained.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
4 TOM HANEY: Is that something that JonBenet
5 had a problem with?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well she, you know, she was at
7 age where she was learning to wipe herself and, you
8 know, sometimes she wouldn't do such a great job.



http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

icedtea4me,
Thanks for the quote, well stained pants is not the same as pants containing feces. I've never seen any evidence anywhere that JonBenet smeared feces.

As Patsy stated ... JonBenet was learning to wipe herself and, you know, sometimes she wouldn't do such a great job. which seems a reasonable explanation.

With BR you have the opposite, i.e. evidence of prior fecal smearing. We have fecal deposits in JonBenet's bedroom, and with Kolar emphasizing it as a red flag, so there is something going on.

The bottom line is that JonBenet had to grow up with a dysfunctional brother who regularly played doctor with her. The fecal deposits might be as a result of such dysfunctional behavior possibly merging into a scatological fetish due to his age?

The children, read as BR, had the run of the house. Patsy is busy with her socialite projects, JR is away at work. So BR is really running play time.

The feces subject might be peripheral to JonBenet's death or it might be central as in it feeds into a dysfunctional personality, the latter more or less confirmed on Dr Phil.

If you add in the possibility that those are BR's pajama bottoms on JonBenet's bedroom floor, that BR may have redressed JonBenet in the size-12's and his own long johns, then that all makes a warped kind of sense to me.

That the parents would redress JonBenet in over sized underwear and male long johns as part of a homicide staging, does not make any kind of sense at all.

.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

UKGuy, I found these pics to help you see that whatever JonBenet was wearing on Christmas morning (they look like pink pyjamas to me - which fit her) is vastly different to what she was found to be wearing when she was deceased in the WC.

Here is a pic from the Investigation Discovery doco showing a version of the white sequinned star GAP top she had on, and a pic (which I found on pinterest) of the white urine-stained clearly male long johns she was wearing which were taken into evidence. Note the cut out sample taken for testing with an A (presumably for artifact) and arrow pointing to the area. Note the red and blue stripes on the waistband as described by the ME when conducting the autopsy.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682456/Clothing#LongWhiteUnderwear

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, I found these pics to help you see that whatever JonBenet was wearing on Christmas morning (they look like pink pyjamas to me - which fit her) is vastly different to what she was found to be wearing when she was deceased in the WC.

Here is a pic from the Investigation Discovery doco showing a version of the white sequinned star GAP top she had on, and a pic (which I found on pinterest) of the white urine-stained clearly male long johns she was wearing which were taken into evidence. Note the cut out sample taken for testing with an A (presumably for artifact) and arrow pointing to the area. Note the red and blue stripes on the waistband as described by the ME when conducting the autopsy.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682456/Clothing#LongWhiteUnderwear

ZoriahNZ,
Thanks for posting the photos. I think the pink top lying on her bed is different from the pink top seen in most of the Christmas day photos. It doesn't change the rough outline of any particular RDI theory, but might suggest prior staging, and where did her pink pajama set go?

Those urine stained long johns found on JonBenet obviously belong to Burke.

The minute I saw them I thought the case is BDI!

.

 

[ZoriahNZ]

I agree, it's getting harder to imagine either parent redressing her in both the over-sized panties AND the long johns which look like they should be Burke's. The testimonies are inconsistent. And yet we do have evidence of a clean up of blood from around her crotch and thighs, with JR fibre evidence, so clearly she WAS wearing something else at some stage.

It really does seem likely she was finished off with the cord (either intentionally or unwittingly) lying face-down on the carpet outside of the WC - *after* the clean up, though. The urine staining most likely happened due to voiding at pod.

Which makes things confusing.

ETA: more rambling thoughts

 

[singularity]

Burke wasn't involved in any of this.

Great post Tortoise but this really hits the nail on the head...

Put that together with the parents pretending to search his room which they wouldn't have done if he had confessed his crime to them,

Yep. You can place this with Burke asking rhetorical questions at 6 am in the "things that wouldn't happen if Burke killed her" file.

Later on in the discussion with Olivia you said....

The only thing he said that I didn't like was that JBR was flaunting herself. It's has horrible connotations when used to describe a 6 year old.

Not only does it have horrible connotations, it implies jealousy...whether coming from Burke as a child or an adult. Even if his statement is made with pure hindsight, it was a momentarily reveal of what was underneath the surface of the family dynamic. It just begs for elaboration and like all the interviews in this case, makes you want to scream when you see so many obvious followup questions never get asked.

I'm not BDI obviously but I do agree with Olivia, UK, etc. on this aspect. I don't think he cared much about her either other than as a toy of sorts. I also don't think he was the only one who felt that way about her. Some of what he felt towards her may have been learned behavior.

I just don't think that relationship was peaches and cream.

It's not evidence if you don't know how it got there, and it's certainly not evidence of who killed her.

There are no accounts of him still smearing.

Yeah BDI makes a big deal of the poop and while it is disturbing on some level, most of that was supposedly in the past and Jonbenet was having soiling issues at the time of her murder as well. So its basically a coin toss on whose feces was present at the scene(I'm excluding the wall smears of course).

Ambitioned......

The "flaunting" wasn't the only bad thing he said. I wish I had bookmarked PL's show transcripts but he was asked about the funeral and what he remembered about it and he said, "The casket was small and I think one of her eyes was a little bit, like, droopy." (To paraphrase).

Seriously??? Your sister is dead and that's what you remember? He made other little digs which told me he absolutely seethed with hate for her.

Yeah he mocks her and wants the world to know that the perfect little princess wasn't so perfect.

Olivia....

Then why not say that the bowl was there from before they visited the Whites? Why all the "I have no idea how that got there" nonsense?

Because it creates confusion....reasonable doubt...etc. Get everyone obsessing over a bowl of pineapple and they'll never even come remotely close to figuring out what really happened.

It works....obviously.

 

[Tortoise]

16 TOM HANEY: How about 378?
17 PATSY RAMSEY: This is JonBenet's floor, her
18 pants.
19 TOM HANEY: Do you recall those particular
20 pants, when she would have worn those last?
21 PATSY RAMSEY: Not for sure. Probably
22 recently because they are dropped in the middle of the
23 floor, but I don't remember exactly.
24 TOM HANEY: They are kind of inside out.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
0457
1 TOM HANEY: 379 is a close up of it. It
2 appears they are stained.
3 PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
4 TOM HANEY: Is that something that JonBenet
5 had a problem with?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well she, you know, she was at
7 age where she was learning to wipe herself and, you
8 know, sometimes she wouldn't do such a great job.



http://www.acandyrose.com/1998BPD-Patsy-Interview-Complete.htm

You see the problem I have with this just being staining from poor wiping, and not soiling from an accident, is that these were what you in America call pants, here we would call them trousers or jeans or pyjama bottoms, depending on what type of clothing they were. They were not underpants or panties.

Which leads me to wonder why they were in that condition, as staining from poor wiping would not go through underpants onto outer pants. Patsy's answer doesn't cut the mustard with me.

For all I know, these could be the 'pants' that people are referring to (from ST's book) as the too large pyjama pants on her floor. If not, were there two pairs of pants containing fecal matter on her floor?

Why wouldn't the detectives have asked her about the other stained/soiled pants on her floor also? I think it answers that little mystery, these weren't Burke's pants left in her room. And if there was a soiling accident in her bedroom that is how there could be accidental transfer of feces on her box of chocolates. Patsy now not only has stained underwear to cope with but ruined clothing. She wouldn't be happy.

 

[Tortoise]

And if she did have an accident, someone likely cleaned her. Patsy says JBR didn't have a bath that day. Would mention have been made in the autopsy of feces staining on her bottom?

 

[Miz Adventure]

Was a DNA test ever carried out on those longjohns? I think JBR's bladder emptied at the time of her death.

 

[Ambitioned]

Yeah he mocks her and wants the world to know that the perfect little princess wasn't so perfect.

Yeah, even if you're not BDI I'm glad you recognize their brother-sister relationship was dysfunctional.

I agree with you in that it's maddening how many opportunities there were for some good followup questions and they didn't get asked.

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,
Thanks for the quote, well stained pants is not the same as pants containing feces. I've never seen any evidence anywhere that JonBenet smeared feces.

As Patsy stated ... JonBenet was learning to wipe herself and, you know, sometimes she wouldn't do such a great job. which seems a reasonable explanation.

With BR you have the opposite, i.e. evidence of prior fecal smearing. We have fecal deposits in JonBenet's bedroom, and with Kolar emphasizing it as a red flag, so there is something going on.

The bottom line is that JonBenet had to grow up with a dysfunctional brother who regularly played doctor with her. The fecal deposits might be as a result of such dysfunctional behavior possibly merging into a scatological fetish due to his age?

The children, read as BR, had the run of the house. Patsy is busy with her socialite projects, JR is away at work. So BR is really running play time.

The feces subject might be peripheral to JonBenet's death or it might be central as in it feeds into a dysfunctional personality, the latter more or less confirmed on Dr Phil.

If you add in the possibility that those are BR's pajama bottoms on JonBenet's bedroom floor, that BR may have redressed JonBenet in the size-12's and his own long johns, then that all makes a warped kind of sense to me.

That the parents would redress JonBenet in over sized underwear and male long johns as part of a homicide staging, does not make any kind of sense at all.

.

CSIs had written about finding a pair of pajama bottoms in JonBenét’s bedroom that contained fecal material. They were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 370

So, is your logic: The pajama pants were too big for JonBenet = The pajama pants were the correct size for Burke, yes or no?​

 

[UKGuy]

CSIs had written about finding a pair of pajama bottoms in JonBenét’s bedroom that contained fecal material. They were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke.
Foreign Faction, Who Really Kidnapped JonBenet, James Kolar, page 370

So, is your logic: The pajama pants were too big for JonBenet = The pajama pants were the correct size for Burke, yes or no?​

icedtea4me,
Lets put it this way: If the pants on the floor are too big for her, then applying the same reasoning used with the size-12's, they belong to someone else.

if Kolar reckons They were too big for her and were thought to belong to Burke.

Then a good starting point is that they were the correct size for Burke.

Another option is that JonBenet was cross-dressing and soiled those pants, is that a runner?

An alternative is that like the size-12's JonBenet was wearing over sized pajamas through choice.

I'll go with the pants being Burke's since this can be dis-confirmed via dna analysis and the parents telling us who owned the pants.

We cannot confirm JonBenet elected to wear both over sized pants and underwear, then changing into Burke's long johns.

.

 

[Ambitioned]

We cannot confirm JonBenet elected to wear both over sized pants and underwear, then changing into Burke's long johns.

I really cannot see a six year old girl being enthralled about wearing oversized undies and male pants. We already know she was picky about clothes. (Red turtleneck vs. white top)

Just speaking for myself, at her age I loved dresses and girly things. I would have squawked loudly at wearing any male items.

 

[UKGuy]

I really cannot see a six year old girl being enthralled about wearing oversized undies and male pants. We already know she was picky about clothes. (Red turtleneck vs. white top)

Just speaking for myself, at her age I loved dresses and girly things. I would have squawked loudly at wearing any male items.

Ambitioned,
I'm with you on that. I also reckon JonBenet would not select over sized underwear or male long johns.

She is now a bona fide pageant princess with a wardrobe to match, even telling Patsy what she will wear to the White's.

Any talk that JonBenet might wear any old hand downs is for the birds and naysayers.

What Kolar, with his description of those pants allegedly the correct size for Burke, might be hinting at is that Burke defecated in his pants as part of his assault on JonBenet, i.e. all linked to his scatological desires.

It appears that BR enacted out some personal ritual on Christmas night, involving violence on JonBenet and defecating followed by smearing?

BR never cleaned up his own pants, but likely redressed JonBenet in the size-12's and his long johns.

Maybe there was feces on JonBenet's red top, who knows, something weird happened that night!

.

 

[Miz Adventure]

Ambitioned,
I'm with you on that. I also reckon JonBenet would not select over sized underwear or male long johns.

She is now a bona fide pageant princess with a wardrobe to match, even telling Patsy what she will wear to the White's.

Any talk that JonBenet might wear any old hand downs is for the birds and naysayers.

What Kolar, with his description of those pants allegedly the correct size for Burke, might be hinting at is that Burke defecated in his pants as part of his assault on JonBenet, i.e. all linked to his scatological desires.

It appears that BR enacted out some personal ritual on Christmas night, involving violence on JonBenet and defecating followed by smearing?

BR never cleaned up his own pants, but likely redressed JonBenet in the size-12's and his long johns.

Maybe there was feces on JonBenet's red top, who knows, something weird happened that night!

.

Holy cow! He sounds as mad as a box of frogs!


However - the photo that somebody posted of the actual longjohns look like they have a very large waist (too big for JBR) but they look too short in the leg to be BR's.

 

[UKGuy]

Holy cow! He sounds as mad as a box of frogs!


However - the photo that somebody posted of the actual long johns look like they have a very large waist (too big for JBR) but they look too short in the leg to be BR's.

Miz Adventure,
BBM: If Kolar is correct then BR definitely had ongoing psychological problems. They might continue to this day.

I reckon BR will be on some kind of medication, not certain what, but his face had that tranquilized look on Dr Phil.

if you think about it, too short in the leg would not be an issue for BR, as long as the top half was attended too, they might have doubled as his wet the bed pants, who knows?

In the past many people used to say Patsy dressed JonBenet in the size-12's for aesthetic reasons, well now we know the long johns were BR's how many now think Patsy staged JonBenet in the over sized underwear and BR's long johns?

.

 

[Ambitioned]

However - the photo that somebody posted of the actual long johns look like they have a very large waist (too big for JBR) but they look too short in the leg to be BR's.

I have a brother who played baseball and when it was very cold he would wear those types of longjohns (like the ones pictured) under the uniform. They were short in the leg and didn't go all the way down. Just a thought.

 

[Miz Adventure]

Those longjohns must have been bought for a fat dwarf.


Patsy probably wouldn't have wanted JBR to be found in those clothes - but she must have been out of her mind with shock, grief and anger (in that order) when she saw what BR had done to her precious daughter. She may not have thought about tidying her up and dressing her in nicer garments.

As to who put the longjohns on JBR - that's a mystery. Maybe she put them on herself?


I said 'anger' because I think the couple must have been incredibly angry with BR. Incandescent with rage, as they say.

I also think each parent blamed the other for not keeping BR away from his sister. They probably knew he hated her and harboured mean intentions towards her.

This could be the reason why they sat in separate rooms, not comforting one another - they even left the house in separate cars.

They blamed eachother for allowing this to happen. For not putting BR in a special secure place (when they had the chance) where he could have received treatment and therapy. Instead they continued to allow him to live in their home knowing what he was like.

The plot thickens.....

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,
Thanks for the quote, well stained pants is not the same as pants containing feces. I've never seen any evidence anywhere that JonBenet smeared feces.

As Patsy stated ... JonBenet was learning to wipe herself and, you know, sometimes she wouldn't do such a great job. which seems a reasonable explanation.

With BR you have the opposite, i.e. evidence of prior fecal smearing. We have fecal deposits in JonBenet's bedroom, and with Kolar emphasizing it as a red flag, so there is something going on.

The bottom line is that JonBenet had to grow up with a dysfunctional brother who regularly played doctor with her. The fecal deposits might be as a result of such dysfunctional behavior possibly merging into a scatological fetish due to his age?

The children, read as BR, had the run of the house. Patsy is busy with her socialite projects, JR is away at work. So BR is really running play time.

The feces subject might be peripheral to JonBenet's death or it might be central as in it feeds into a dysfunctional personality, the latter more or less confirmed on Dr Phil.

If you add in the possibility that those are BR's pajama bottoms on JonBenet's bedroom floor, that BR may have redressed JonBenet in the size-12's and his own long johns, then that all makes a warped kind of sense to me.

That the parents would redress JonBenet in over sized underwear and male long johns as part of a homicide staging, does not make any kind of sense at all.

.

From /u/Fr_Brown:
Where in JonBenet's room were the feces-smeared pajama bottoms "thought to belong to Burke" found? If they were in plain sight, is there a crime scene photograph of them? Were they collected?
Was the "feces-smeared candy box" collected? If not, do you know why not?
permalinkembed

[–]jameskolar 17 points 1 year ago
It is my recollection that the pj bottoms were on the floor but I didn’t see that they or the box of candy were collected. It was an odd observation noted by investigators, but I don’t think they grasped the significance of those items at the time. Interviews were still being conducted with family employees and friends during and well after the completion of the execution of the search warrants.
permalinkembedparent

https://www.reddit.com/r/UnresolvedMysteries/comments/30nfvc/hi_im_chief_marshall_james_kolar_ama/

So, according to Kolar, it looks like neither the pajama pants nor the candy box was collected. Therefore, the fecal material on each item cannot be tested to determine origin.