The Phone Calls in the early morning of Dec.18, 2013 (both PayPhone & cells)

[MommyPlatt]

FWIW - at the bond hearing they clearly addressed this stating that at 3:38 a.m. her phone basically went * poof *. They basically said there was google gps data and other stuff up until that point - but at 3:38 the phone was no longer active or trackable.

I have from the start believed that Heather and her phone went into the water at PTL. A phone will basically "go poof" when submerged. JMO

 

[Madeleine74]

3:41am is the magic time. All data ceased. It's reasonable to conclude the phone was disabled in some way so that it could no longer send or receive transmissions.

 

[stillwatersc]

Nope. I'm right there with you.

After seeing everything that Jodi Arias did to Alexander Travis in such a short amount of time, I have NO problem believing the M's killed Heather in that amount of time.

Ah - I forgot about Travis murder - they had timestamps on the pictures so they knew exactly when he was alive/not alive. For those who didn't follow that case, Travis was stabbed over 2 dozen times & shot in < 5 minutes while trying to get away/defend himself against a smaller woman. Correct me if I am off - I didn't follow the trial and the final conclusions. Just despise Jodi too much..!!

 

[PPKik]

Ah - I forgot about Travis murder - they had timestamps on the pictures so they knew exactly when he was alive/not alive. For those who didn't follow that case, Travis was stabbed over 2 dozen times & shot in < 5 minutes while trying to get away/defend himself against a smaller woman. Correct me if I am off - I didn't follow the trial and the final conclusions. Just despise Jodi too much..!!

I felt the same way about that despicable woman and didn't follow the trial until I saw the brilliant and riveting Juan. I was hooked after < one minute.

IIRC it did all happen in less than 5 minutes. Those time-stamped photos were incredible and surreal. Besides stabbing Travis almost 30 times, Jodi Arias also slit his throat in that short time.

The huge difference for me is that she had the "privacy" of Travis' bathroom, once she gained access to his house. She also knew he was home when she somehow entered it to murder him.

Whatever happened at PTL was out in the open and depended on so many variables, including Heather showing up.

Another poster mentioned this, and I think it is very valid and very important. Heather called SM a number of times and he didn't answer. She called the pay phone about 50 minutes after they spoke and she called his cell many times without getting an answer.

What if Heather had just said "Screw it," and had gone to bed, and/or not kept calling? What if she had left PTL when he didn't answer?

That ruins the "plan" doesn't it? What would have happened if she hadn't kept calling back? Where is the plan and the premeditation?

 

[cluciano63]

Premeditation would be in trying to lure her there, which apparently worked in this case. If Heather had not gone, there wouldn't be a case, IMO, at least not from that night. So the premeditation charge stems from the fact that Heather did go, according to LE and was never seen again. She would not have gone to PTL, if not for the phone call. Her murder resulted from the call, so that in itself shows premeditation. I don't think either M went near her apartment that night...jmo

 

[Madeleine74]

Where is the plan and the premeditation?

Premeditation has nothing to do with pre-planning, although in many premed cases there is pre-planning as well.

The legal definition of premeditation is met when a perp knows their actions will lead to death and they do it anyway. It can happen in a matter of seconds. They do not need to have pre-planned the event.

Obviously if Heather had never gone to PTL that night she would not have been killed on 12/18/13 and there would be no murder. But, if they killed her later and not that night, it would still be a premeditated murder. Whenever they did it, it would meet the premeditation qualification.

 

[PPKik]

Premeditation has nothing to do with pre-planning, although in many premed cases there is pre-planning as well.

The legal definition of premeditation is met when a perp knows their actions will lead to death and they do it anyway. It can happen in a matter of seconds. They do not need to have pre-planned the event.

Obviously if Heather had never gone to PTL that night she would not have been killed on 12/18/13 and there would be no murder. But, if they killed her later and not that night, it would still be a premeditated murder. Whenever they did it, it would meet the premeditation qualification.

Precisely. If she hadn't gone there...

How did these premeditators count on Heather showing up and staying there when they wouldn't answer the phone?

I did use plan and premeditation as separate words/ acts, though I disagree with you on: "premediation has nothing to do with pre-planning."

Premeditation is about pre-planning (doesn't have to do with death necessarily), but it can be a very short term.

Premeditation is simply: "A design formed to do something before it is done."


What is PREMEDITATION?

The act of meditating in advance; deliberation upon a con- templated act; plotting or contriving; a design formed to do something before it is done. See State v. Spivey, 132 N. C. 989, 43 S. E. 475;


http://thelawdictionary.org/premeditation/

 

[JezyUn]

Sometimes it is necessary to look beyond what is presented, quite possibly- to set up the "I only called her to tell her to stop calling me" story.. SM could easily have said to HE..call me back at this number (payphone) in like 50 minutes. If I don't answer, try my cell phone, I will walk home and get it, then I will meet you. If I don't answer right away, keep trying..

Point being, none of us know what the conversations were.


Nothing is ever as it seems, there is a lot none of us know. Some of these details are probably sorted out already with LE, we just are not privy to that info.

 

[Snoopy1]

Ah - I forgot about Travis murder - they had timestamps on the pictures so they knew exactly when he was alive/not alive. For those who didn't follow that case, Travis was stabbed over 2 dozen times & shot in < 5 minutes while trying to get away/defend himself against a smaller woman. Correct me if I am off - I didn't follow the trial and the final conclusions. Just despise Jodi too much..!!

yes, thats correct. But she also slashed his throat as well. In under 3 minutes I believe was the picture times.....

I have no doubt ANYTHING could have happened in that short amount of time!

 

[Catlady2]

Precisely. If she hadn't gone there...

How did these premeditators count on Heather showing up and staying there when they wouldn't answer the phone?

I did use plan and premeditation as separate words/ acts, though I disagree with you on: "premediation has nothing to do with pre-planning."

Premeditation is about pre-planning (doesn't have to do with death necessarily), but it can be a very short term.

Premeditation is simply: "A design formed to do something before it is done."


What is PREMEDITATION?

The act of meditating in advance; deliberation upon a con- templated act; plotting or contriving; a design formed to do something before it is done. See State v. Spivey, 132 N. C. 989, 43 S. E. 475;


http://thelawdictionary.org/premeditation/

To me from the payphone on was a plan devised to harm Heather. They drove to ptl very slowly going over last minute run down of what was going to happen when she got into the truck. I originally thought this murder was a rush/last minute, rage killing but now I think they even had their plans laid out as to where they would take her afterwards. I think after Heather said "No. I'm moving on with my life," to sm on the payphone, the plan was crushed. When she called his cell then everything was back on track. I'm also betting tm threatened Heather via text. We've seen her text "his last breath" stuff. I'm sure she texted that to Heather also. If you tell someone you're going to kill them? How can you get more premeditated than that?

 

[NFYIAMY]

I am very surprised to read this, that 3:38am was the time everything stopped. I thought it had been stated over and over that 3:41am was the time the phone went dead, data stopped, GPS stopped.

I know you were at the bond hearing and you know much more than we could ever, from reading press reports second hand, and I appreciate hearing from you and seeing your photos which are the best from the hearing. They are really good.

But have we all been wrong about 3:41am? That even further closes the very small time gap and confuses me.


(I realize since the bond hearing LE is no longer saying that there was that 2am-6am back and forth between Heather and SM.

Nevertheless, it bothers me a lot that they were so definitive about that at the PC, and, of course, that had everyone speculating about what was going on all that time and had people believing Heather was abducted or disappeared much later. The fact the no one addressed this major discrepancy or change bothers me.

It seems that LE can change their theory about what happened and when it happened without bothering to even make a statement about what they had previously stated. I do know they don't have to, but it gives me less confidence in what they are alleging when they are not up front.)

MY APOLOGIES.

It is 3:41.

I've been working 16+hour days and trying to stay in touch here (when I can) -- bad mistake.

Sorry I caused confusion!!

 

[cluciano63]

I can't work the pay phone call into the plan...since nothing became of it, and would not have Imo, unless Heather happened to call him later and get him on his cell. If she had not called, then what? I can't see them sitting around wondering if she would. I just can't dismiss the possibility that at that point, at least, SM may have been wanting to escape with Heather. Just no way to know. Probably, we never will know the truth. Jmo

 

[magnolia]

I can't work the pay phone call into the plan...since nothing became of it, and would not have Imo, unless Heather happened to call him later and get him on his cell. If she had not called, then what? I can't see them sitting around wondering if she would. I just can't dismiss the possibility that at that point, at least, SM may have been wanting to escape with Heather. Just no way to know. Probably, we never will know the truth. Jmo

I agree with the BBM.

I think people wanting to know the whole story will be disappointed when this case goes to trial. IMO

 

[Madeleine74]

This is what people who are newer to following cases don't understand and might think real life is like what they see on TV in various crime shows. Rarely are all the holes filled in real life. Almost every case has questions remaining. Unless someone is an eye witness to every single moment there is no way to know it all. I've seen a tendency by case followers to make up theories and narratives to try and fill the holes because (I guess) those holes cause much anxiety. I personally am not interested in making up stories, I just want to know the facts and I take whatever is presented and leave it at that. If there is enough to convince me BARD then that's really all I need. More would be better, but I'm not willing to spin fictional possibilities. For that I would take a fiction writing class.

But the important thing is that the right perp(s) be charged, convicted, and put away with evidence that proves their guilt BARD (beyond a reasonable doubt).

 

[Hatfield]

I can't work the pay phone call into the plan...since nothing became of it, and would not have Imo, unless Heather happened to call him later and get him on his cell. If she had not called, then what? I can't see them sitting around wondering if she would. I just can't dismiss the possibility that at that point, at least, SM may have been wanting to escape with Heather. Just no way to know. Probably, we never will know the truth. Jmo

When the calls from SM to Heather started,
The part where I get confused is they would have no way to know if Heather would have even called him back or even agreed to meet at PTL so I do wonder how much of a plan they had in advance.

The only thing I can come up with is maybe TM had the plan for a long time and waited for the perfect time. Since roomate was gone and since Heather was out late it does seem to be perfect time. So even though they had no way to know if Heather would have agreed to meet its possible that TM was ready anyway and had her plan ready to go.

It does make me think they were both in on it. It seems SM did his job to convince her to leave.

OR if SM really did have a big fight with TM and was really leaving then TM followed him and somehow got involved anyway. Somewhere along the line SM became involved and agreed to hide what TM had done. At least by later that night or early next morning he had to have known everything and he was part of it by not going to LE. He helped TM with the coverup by not going to LE.

ETA - The cars on video will help tell the story of how much involvement SM + TM had together or separate that night. Like if 2 vehicles from the compound showed up at landing or just the 1.

 

[magnolia]

This is what people who are newer to following cases don't understand and might think real life is like what they see on TV in various crime shows. Rarely are all the holes filled in real life. Almost every case has questions remaining. Unless someone is an eye witness to every single moment there is no way to know it all. I've seen a tendency by case followers to make up theories and narratives to try and fill the holes because (I guess) those holes cause much anxiety. I personally am not interested in making up stories, I just want to know the facts and I take whatever is presented and leave it at that. If there is enough to convince me BARD then that's really all I need. More would be better, but I'm not willing to spin fictional possibilities. For that I would take a fiction writing class.

But the important thing is that the right perp(s) be charged, convicted, and put away with evidence that proves their guilt BARD (beyond a reasonable doubt).

BBM

Thank-You Madeleine :loser: I'm the same way.

 

[PPKik]

To me from the payphone on was a plan devised to harm Heather. They drove to ptl very slowly going over last minute run down of what was going to happen when she got into the truck. I originally thought this murder was a rush/last minute, rage killing but now I think they even had their plans laid out as to where they would take her afterwards. I think after Heather said "No. I'm moving on with my life," to sm on the payphone, the plan was crushed. When she called his cell then everything was back on track. I'm also betting tm threatened Heather via text. We've seen her text "his last breath" stuff. I'm sure she texted that to Heather also. If you tell someone you're going to kill them? How can you get more premeditated than that?

I don't disagree with you about the "last breath" text. But that was in early November and directed at SM, not Heather. Most of us have said things like that or worse in anger, hurt and extreme frustration. I think TCM was all three, at least when she texted her husband's lover.

Not taking a position on this because I don't know what happened in those possible Dec.18th texts we know nothing about in those early hours, but would Tammy tell Heather that? And would Heather then go out? I'm finding some of this defies all logic and the way most people would react if scared or threatened.

 

[PPKik]

Does anyone know or remember if any of our local sleuths were able to confirm that the Kangaroo gas station where Heather got gas, on the 17th, had a pay phone?

 

[Motherof5]

Precisely. If she hadn't gone there...

How did these premeditators count on Heather showing up and staying there when they wouldn't answer the phone?

I did use plan and premeditation as separate words/ acts, though I disagree with you on: "premediation has nothing to do with pre-planning."

Premeditation is about pre-planning (doesn't have to do with death necessarily), but it can be a very short term.

Premeditation is simply: "A design formed to do something before it is done."


What is PREMEDITATION?

The act of meditating in advance; deliberation upon a con- templated act; plotting or contriving; a design formed to do something before it is done. See State v. Spivey, 132 N. C. 989, 43 S. E. 475;


http://thelawdictionary.org/premeditation/

Heather calls SM's phone and TM,SM or both decide in that moment that she's going to be eliminated. One of them tells her to go to PTL. That is premeditation.They didn't have to plan it a week in advance or even a day. I feel like they didn't answer Heather's calls right away because they were arguing and then TM,most likely, decided that Heather calling SM's phone was the final straw. She tells SM to get Heather to go to PTL and that was it. As far as the M's knowing if Heather would stay at PTL while they were not answering...they couldn't know for sure...but she clearly agreed to meet there so it's safe to assume that she wouldn't just leave if SM were a few minutes late. She ran off to PTL as soon as SM told her to and in the middle of the night...she wasn't going anywhere until she saw him.

 

[magnolia]

Heather calls SM's phone and TM,SM or both decide in that moment that she's going to be eliminated. One of them tells her to go to PTL. That is premeditation.They didn't have to plan it a week in advance or even a day. I feel like they didn't answer Heather's calls right away because they were arguing and then TM,most likely, decided that Heather calling SM's phone was the final straw. She tells SM to get Heather to go to PTL and that was it. As far as the M's knowing if Heather would stay at PTL while they were not answering...they couldn't know for sure...but she clearly agreed to meet there so it's safe to assume that she wouldn't just leave if SM were a few minutes late. She ran off to PTL as soon as SM told her to and in the middle of the night...she wasn't going anywhere until she saw him.

BBM

Sidney called Heather at 1:35 A.M. They talked approximately 4 mins. She didn't leave for PTL until 3:21 A.M. How is it she ran off to PTL as soon as SM told her to ? How do you know he told her to? All this took place in the early morning hours of Dec. 18th. It was not in the middle of the night.