The Phone Calls in the early morning of Dec.18, 2013 (both PayPhone & cells)

[PPKik]

So Ghostweel, let me ask you this- suppose TE on the day he could not get a hold of HE by phone, contacted the provider-we know he did. Saw that the calls ended at 341am, could he with in a day or so have had her number installed to a working phone and removed any "qued" but not received calls and or texts? IDK how that works-

That's a great question!

I am not presuming to answer for Ghostwheel, but I don't see why TE couldn't or wouldn't have done that.

In fact, I wonder why he didn't do that, if he didn't. There must have been many "queued" texts waiting for a phone to go to. Now I wonder how long they would stay queued. Perhaps that could have explained the "back and forth communication" for hours. I wonder why LE didn't suggest that. A question for T-Mobile users is: How long would messages wait for a phone?

When my phone disappeared several years ago, I reported it "missing," and bought a cheap, new phone. My number remained the same. Voicemails that had been left for me were recoverable. I did not have texting at that time.

 

[Ghostwheel]

So Ghostweel, let me ask you this- suppose TE on the day he could not get a hold of HE by phone, contacted the provider-we know he did. Saw that the calls ended at 341am, could he with in a day or so have had her number installed to a working phone and removed any "qued" but not received calls and or texts? IDK how that works-

Or rather viewed instead of "removed"

Yes, from my experience, he could have done that. I have done this more times than I can tell you (we had a spell of bad phones that we got on warranty). In addition, I have never actually viewed phone account information in a database, but that information should be there, in a database owned by the provider. (I have built, maintained, queried, viewed and modified databases in my various job incarnations). Terry Elvis could not probably get everything that was in the database regarding that account, but LE could with the proper warrants.

That's a great question!

I am not presuming to answer for Ghostwheel, but I don't see why TE couldn't or wouldn't have done that.

In fact, I wonder why he didn't do that, if he didn't. There must have been many "queued" texts waiting for a phone to go to. Now I wonder how long they would stay queued. Perhaps that could have explained the "back and forth communication" for hours. I wonder why LE didn't suggest that. A question for T-Mobile users is: How long would messages wait for a phone?

When my phone disappeared several years ago, I reported it "missing," and bought a cheap, new phone. My number remained the same. Voicemails that had been left for me were recoverable. I did not have texting at that time.

PPKik, the average person doesn't do that kind of thing. They take their phone to their provider store and ask them to "upgrade" the phone, or switch it out. They have no idea how to back up their information, transfer it all to the sd card on the phone, connect to the computer and transfer, whatever. They don't even know how to transfer their number to a different phone themselves. Most people are just users, which is why the iPhone is so popular. (Like most Apple products, they are made for people who just want to use the phone as designed, not root it and make it sing and dance-I'm not an Apple fan BTW, but I recognize a good design for the right audience when I see it).

Terry Elvis may have been able to do what I was talking about, but he may not have had the knowledge to do that, or he may not have needed to do that if LE got the information from the provider. This is all JMO, based on my phone experiences (and I don't even own a smart phone, I just fix them)

 

[PPKik]

Yes, from my experience, he could have done that. I have done this more times than I can tell you (we had a spell of bad phones that we got on warranty). In addition, I have never actually viewed phone account information in a database, but that information should be there, in a database owned by the provider. (I have built, maintained, queried, viewed and modified databases in my various job incarnations). Terry Elvis could not probably get everything that was in the database regarding that account, but LE could with the proper warrants.

PPKik, the average person doesn't do that kind of thing. They take their phone to their provider store and ask them to "upgrade" the phone, or switch it out. They have no idea how to back up their information, transfer it all to the sd card on the phone, connect to the computer and transfer, whatever. They don't even know how to transfer their number to a different phone themselves. Most people are just users, which is why the iPhone is so popular. (Like most Apple products, they are made for people who just want to use the phone as designed, not root it and make it sing and dance-I'm not an Apple fan BTW, but I recognize a good design for the right audience when I see it).

Terry Elvis may have been able to do what I was talking about, but he may not have had the knowledge to do that, or he may not have needed to do that if LE got the information from the provider. This is all JMO, based on my phone experiences (and I don't even own a smart phone, I just fix them)

Ghostwheel I am a bit confused. When you say "the average person doesn't do that kind of thing," I'm not sure what you mean.

I think 4evernbluejeans and I were both wondering why Terry didn't just get another phone that could have received messages and texts.

That wouldn't have involved all the complicated data transfer, sd cards, backing up on a computer, or anything I think you were talking about, would it? When I lost my phone, I didn't transfer anything, my phone provider did, because I didn't have even have a SIM card .

I have no idea if Terry would have needed another smart phone (I don't own one either), or if any T-Mobile phone would have picked up texts, but it is extraordinary that he didn't do that.

At the point Terry claims he knew something had happened to Heather, it was vague-time between, I guess, 5pm and 7pm on Dec19th, while he was at PTL. That is when he said he knew something had happened within 20 minutes of being there.

At that point, Heather had not been heard from since that brief (two minutes?) 1:44am call to her roommate, BW, according to all reports. Over 40 hours later, Heather's car was discovered. What would getting a phone immediately have produced in terms of possible evidence or clues?

Later, Terry said he knew something had happened at 3:41am. LE was saying something completely different, with all their warrants and subpoena powers.

BBM
From your post:Terry Elvis could not probably get everything that was in the database regarding that account, but LE could with the proper warrants.

You helped me make the point I have been making for months. Terry gave LE information, but LE had access to more than he did. I wrote about LE having subpoena powers in early posts about these phone records. This just reinforces my position that when LE said there was "back and forth communication between Heather and SM until 6am," something was going on. LE had that information, yet changed it to fit their kidnapped-at-PTL theory and Terry's 3:41am time. WHY?

How could LE, with the local Horry County PD, the state SLED, and all kinds of feds, not know what was going on on Heather's phone?

And why didn't Terry and/ or LE immediately get another phone as 4evernbluejeans asked? All the technical data transfer business seems irrelevant if you are trying to capture information to find a missing person.

 

[Ghostwheel]

Ghostwheel I am a bit confused. When you say "the average person doesn't do that kind of thing," I'm not sure what you mean.

I think 4evernbluejeans and I were both wondering why Terry didn't just get another phone that could have received messages and texts.

That wouldn't have involved all the complicated data transfer, sd cards, backing up on a computer, or anything I think you were talking about, would it? When I lost my phone, I didn't transfer anything, my phone provider did, because I didn't have even have a SIM card .

I have no idea if Terry would have needed another smart phone (I don't own one either), or if any T-Mobile phone would have picked up texts, but it is extraordinary that he didn't do that.

At the point Terry claims he knew something had happened to Heather, it was vague-time between, I guess, 5pm and 7pm on Dec19th, while he was at PTL. That is when he said he knew something had happened within 20 minutes of being there.

At that point, Heather had not been heard from since that brief (two minutes?) 1:44am call to her roommate, BW, according to all reports. Over 40 hours later, Heather's car was discovered. What would getting a phone immediately have produced in terms of possible evidence or clues?

Later, Terry said he knew something had happened at 3:41am. LE was saying something completely different, with all their warrants and subpoena powers.

BBM
From your post:Terry Elvis could not probably get everything that was in the database regarding that account, but LE could with the proper warrants.

You helped me make the point I have been making for months. Terry gave LE information, but LE had access to more than he did. I wrote about LE having subpoena powers in early posts about these phone records. This just reinforces my position that when LE said there was "back and forth communication between Heather and SM until 6am," something was going on. LE had that information, yet changed it to fit their kidnapped-at-PTL theory and Terry's 3:41am time. WHY?

How could LE, with the local Horry County PD, the state SLED, and all kinds of feds, not know what was going on on Heather's phone?

And why didn't Terry and/ or LE immediately get another phone as 4evernbluejeans asked? All the technical data transfer business seems irrelevant if you are trying to capture information to find a missing person.

I see that you post that LE changed it to fit their kidnapped at PTL theory. What I'm trying to point out is that they did not necessarily CHANGE it. They simply agreed with Terry Elvis that Heather's phone data ended at 3:41. They did not say no one tried to contact the phone after that time. Do you see what I am saying? LE doesn't say that SM's phone did not try to contact Heather's phone after 3:41. I could be completely wrong, too, but it's what people DON'T say that red flags me. They 100% do NOT say that there were no communications to Heather's number. They say Heather's phone data ended. Two completely different things.

If you text me at 1, then I text you at 2, it is a back and forth communication from 1 to 2. Then you text me back at 3, but I turned my phone off at 2:30 and didn't get it. It is still a back and forth communication, even though I did not get your last message nor respond. But it is now from 1-3, but my phone data ended at 2. (because I shut it off-same would happen if it was destroyed.)

That is the best I can explain it. I don't think they changed their position at all. They just changed the way it is being said and are leaving some parts out for a reason. And I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

As to why didn't Terry and/ or LE immediately get another phone as 4evernbluejeans asked? Maybe they did and didn't tell us. Or maybe LE would rather have the database records (I would) and got those instead. Considering the bombshell that came out at trial in another case (Alexis Murphy) about a tshirt the perp was wearing that had the victim and the perps blood on it, yet it was never leaked to the public, I'm pretty convinced LE knows how to keep a secret when they need to.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't interpret it the same way you do, and I wish I could explain it better.

ETA: Sorry, I simply meant that the average person doesn't necessarily know you can take any old phone and transfer your number to it. A lot of people don't know how to transfer their number themselves, and most others would never think to take a used phone into their provider and ask them to transfer their number to it. The average person upgrades their old phone for a new one. I would not find it extraordinary for Terry Elvis to have not known this (assuming he didn't, and he might have)

 

[PPKik]

I see that you post that LE changed it to fit their kidnapped at PTL theory. What I'm trying to point out is that they did not necessarily CHANGE it. They simply agreed with Terry Elvis that Heather's phone data ended at 3:41. They did not say no one tried to contact the phone after that time. Do you see what I am saying? LE doesn't say that SM's phone did not try to contact Heather's phone after 3:41. I could be completely wrong, too, but it's what people DON'T say that red flags me. They 100% do NOT say that there were no communications to Heather's number. They say Heather's phone data ended. Two completely different things.

If you text me at 1, then I text you at 2, it is a back and forth communication from 1 to 2. Then you text me back at 3, but I turned my phone off at 2:30 and didn't get it. It is still a back and forth communication, even though I did not get your last message nor respond. But it is now from 1-3, but my phone data ended at 2. (because I shut it off-same would happen if it was destroyed.)

That is the best I can explain it. I don't think they changed their position at all. They just changed the way it is being said and are leaving some parts out for a reason. And I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

As to why didn't Terry and/ or LE immediately get another phone as 4evernbluejeans asked? Maybe they did and didn't tell us. Or maybe LE would rather have the database records (I would) and got those instead. Considering the bombshell that came out at trial in another case (Alexis Murphy) about a tshirt the perp was wearing that had the victim and the perps blood on it, yet it was never leaked to the public, I'm pretty convinced LE knows how to keep a secret when they need to.

I understand what you are saying, but I don't interpret it the same way you do, and I wish I could explain it better.

ETA: Sorry, I simply meant that the average person doesn't necessarily know you can take any old phone and transfer your number to it. A lot of people don't know how to transfer their number themselves, and most others would never think to take a used phone into their provider and ask them to transfer their number to it. The average person upgrades their old phone for a new one. I would not find it extraordinary for Terry Elvis to have not known this (assuming he didn't, and he might have)

I do see what you are saying. LE did say data ceased, not all communication.

I do understand what you are saying about the texting and turning your phone off. That's why I think it is a terrible lost opportunity that the phone wasn't replaced, especially since no one seemed to believed Heather was dead in the early days. Imagine the potential mine of information if they had had turned on a working phone. They would have been able to capture that so called back and forth and probably much more. Who was and wasn't contacting Heather from the 18th to the 28th, for example?

When you say that LE simply agreed with Terry Elvis, that implies he knew a great deal about phones, data, reading logs, and pings, and LE knew nothing until the arrests. Either way, I don't have confidence in any of them.

Remember Richardson said the other information LE gave out at a press conference was a "roundabout figure" when they changed the time line? Weasel words. It was not "roundabout." They were extremely specific.

I do believe they changed their theory to fit the new evidence of the videos.

I also believe that much information that may have been used to help find Heather (whether in the end it would have helped or not, I don't know) was deliberately withheld. Obviously, both the family and LE knew whether Heather had changed her clothes, yet they were too _______ to admit that she did or didn't.

Will someone use the tired excuse for ridiculous secrecy: "That could hurt the investigation if they admitted that she did change her clothes"? Why wouldn't the family or LE admit that? Terry said he had no idea, that LE wouldn't tell him. Do you believe that?

We simply disagree, but I did wanted to be sure I understood your post.

And I do appreciate your ETA explanation, although doing the work Terry did on multiple computers in his graphics business, I'm sure he was fairly savvy about tech stuff.

 

[Motherof5]

I wasn't sure where to put this and I don't think anyone has the answer but I'd really like to know when BW left for vacation.

 

[SStarr33]

I wasn't sure where to put this and I don't think anyone has the answer but I'd really like to know when BW left for vacation.

I'm pretty sure she mentioned it on her twitter, but I don't have a SS and she has locked it up.

 

[NFYIAMY]

Wouldn't a new phone affect the ability to try and find Heather's phone? If they sent all data or calls to a new phone - then there would be no way to track the old phone?

Wouldn't that have been a front thought in the beginning?

Since LE could get the database records and have everything tracked that way - wouldn't that make more sense? Once they realized there was no reason to try and continue to hope to ping or find that phone anymore - the whole 'get a new phone' thing would be pointless?

Am I missing something?

 

[eileenhawkeye]

What if Heather had not gone to PTL? How lucky were the Moorers? Sidney had supposedly not spoken to Heather in weeks. What if Heather's response was that she had moved on? Anger because Sidney didn't stop Tammy's harassment? No interest/even being creeped out by Sidney saying he is leaving his wife? Too tired? Wants to wait until the morning or meet at the apartment instead? There are so many things that Heather could have said to explain why she wouldn't meet. Did Sidney (and Tammy?) just decide to take a chance? Did Heather keep trying to contact Sidney, so they knew she was desperate and in love? What if Heather had refused? What if she was sleeping? The plan would be abandoned?

I also would like to know if it was common for BW and Heather to talk on the phone. Texting seems to be way more common nowadays, especially with 20-year-olds. I sort of wonder if there was a part of Heather's conscious that was worried about meeting Sidney at PTL. I realize it was big news, but IDK, it just seems odd to me, especially considering how different this case would be if she didn't make that call.

Another interesting thing is, no one knew Heather was missing until her car was found at PTL. I am going to assume that the "next" day, BW was texting Heather, asking her how the meeting went. No reply. Was it normal for Heather to not text back for hours or days? Now if Heather was scared of Tammy, did BW know about this? And if BW knew about this, if Heather went to a meeting with the husband at some secluded location, and now was not answering her phone, would she be worried? Perhaps she was a bit, and she just brushed it off. But if Heather truly feared Tammy, thought she was a legitimate threat, if her best friend knew about this, would BW have more concern about Heather not answering the phone? Don't they always say to tell a friend where you are going on a date? Isnt that so if they don't hear from you after it, they can get help? I realize we wont know this until the trial, but just thinking out loud...

ETA: I think Heather was a very naive and vulnerable girl, and the Moorers knew it. Even the story they used to lure her out was ridiculous. If this was planned, they had to be pretty confident she would buy it. If Heather had no contact with Sidney for weeks, how did they even know if she still loved him or not? I think they knew she had very low self esteem (despite the confident image she tried to portray) and that it would not be hard to get her to PTL that night.

 

[Surfside]

Another interesting thing is, no one knew Heather was missing until her car was found at PTL. I am going to assume that the "next" day, BW was texting Heather, asking her how the meeting went. No reply. Was it normal for Heather to not text back for hours or days? Now if Heather was scared of Tammy, did BW know about this? And if BW knew about this, if Heather went to a meeting with the husband at some secluded location, and now was not answering her phone, would she be worried? Perhaps she was a bit, and she just brushed it off. But if Heather truly feared Tammy, thought she was a legitimate threat, if her best friend knew about this, would BW have more concern about Heather not answering the phone? Don't they always say to tell a friend where you are going on a date? Isnt that so if they don't hear from you after it, they can get help? I realize we wont know this until the trial, but just thinking out loud...

RSBM & BBM: I was not under the impression that Heather told BW about the meeting. I only remember reading that BW said, [Heather] "'seemed like she was crying and upset' due to receiving a call from Moorer." (http://www.myhorrynews.com/news/crime/article_ada6ad1c-8f77-11e3-8ca7-001a4bcf6878.html)

And prosecutor, Donna Elder, said, "Elvis called a friend after the call and said Sidney Moorer was leaving his wife and wanted to resume their relationship." (http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/2014/03/18/4104390/testimony-weaves-a-tale-of-how.html)

Maybe it's an assumption, on my part, but since Heather didn't start trying to call SM until 45 minutes after her conversation with BW, it seems plausible to me that at the time of the call to her roommate, Heather had not yet decided to meet with SM; and therefore, didn't mention it to BW. JMO.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

RSBM & BBM: I was not under the impression that Heather told BW about the meeting. I only remember reading that BW said, [Heather] "'seemed like she was crying and upset' due to receiving a call from Moorer." (http://www.myhorrynews.com/news/crime/article_ada6ad1c-8f77-11e3-8ca7-001a4bcf6878.html)

And prosecutor, Donna Elder, said, "Elvis called a friend after the call and said Sidney Moorer was leaving his wife and wanted to resume their relationship." (http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/2014/03/18/4104390/testimony-weaves-a-tale-of-how.html)

Maybe it's an assumption, on my part, but since Heather didn't start trying to call SM until 45 minutes after her conversation with BW, it seems plausible to me that at the time of the call to her roommate, Heather had not yet decided to meet with SM; and therefore, didn't mention it to BW. JMO.

But could she have not spent those 45 minutes getting ready, and when she started calling Sidney back when she was ready to leave? (I am not looking at the timeline at the moment so this might not make sense).

 

[jillycat]

I don't think Heather knew at the time of the conversation with the roommate that she was going to PTL. I believe things developed after she re-considered the first conversation with SM, and began trying to reach him.

She only talked to her roommate two and a half minutes. According to media reports, part of that conversation was about her date with SS. There may not be that much to tell about what she and BW discussed about SM.

Just a guess, but I would not be surprised to find that Heather was very much caught off guard by SM's call, and when she called BW, she was still trying to wrap her head around the whole thing.

 

[4evernbluejeans]

I don't think Heather knew at the time of the conversation with the roommate that she was going to PTL. I believe things developed after she re-considered the first conversation with SM, and began trying to reach him.

She only talked to her roommate two and a half minutes. According to media reports, part of that conversation was about her date with SS. There may not be that much to tell about what she and BW discussed about SM.

Just a guess, but I would not be surprised to find that Heather was very much caught off guard by SM's call, and when she called BW, she was still trying to wrap her head around the whole thing.

Hi! I have been thinking about this too. Consider this maybe in HE's young mind, for a month and a half she has been thinking "how could he choose his wife over me?" Or "why wouldn't he stand up to TM when she is trying to scare me?" IMO she had a young girl's IDK-awe of this older more experienced man. I don't think she had an understanding of the depth of control TM had in this marriage. So when SM called HE's initial reaction might have been "get lost" "no way" but maybe she really had been waiting all along for the call. Maybe afterward, she thought she had missed her ONE chance. I am only saying this bc I remember, when I was a young girl...thinking that if a MOMENT passed-the world might end. The thought that if I waited a day, I would lose my mind.

Additionally no matter how I look at it PTL is just a weird choice. If they used to meet there when HE lived at home- then it may make a little sense-but not much to me. It was out of the way for her, from her apartment.

 

[4evernbluejeans]

I guess I can answer my own question about PTL, if she was irrational to talk to and agree to meet SM-why not a deserted boat landing at 340am? Ugh...

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I guess I can answer my own question about PTL, if she was irrational to talk to and agree to meet SM-why not a deserted boat landing at 340am? Ugh...

I think it comes down to very little self esteem. Why would she would leave her apartment at 3 AM for someone who made no effort to contact her in weeks? Would he not love her in the morning? At her own apartment? Why would she think that some guy who had sex with her a few times was going to leave his wife for her? Did they go on dates? Did they hang out at her apartment or at his house? Did they have conversations, or was it just physical? I think Heather was crying because she truly thought her life was going to change. Maybe she did hesitate, but her going to PTL tells me she bought what Sidney was telling her.

ETA: I think Heather did feel an emotional connection with Sidney, but I do not think he felt the same way. There are many women who sleep with guys and become attached (and many who don't). So Heather could have thought they were in love, even if their whole relationship was only them having sex. It is not unusual to look for love in the wrong places. I think her actions that night show that she was desperately looking for attention, approval, even love, and here was someone (who she thought) was giving it to her.

 

[4evernbluejeans]

I think it comes down to very little self esteem. Why would she would leave her apartment at 3 AM for someone who made no effort to contact her in weeks? Would he not love her in the morning? At her own apartment? Why would she think that some guy who had sex with her a few times was going to leave his wife for her? Did they go on dates? Did they hang out at her apartment or at his house? Did they have conversations, or was it just physical? I think Heather was crying because she truly thought her life was going to change. Maybe she did hesitate, but her going to PTL tells me she bought what Sidney was telling her.

Unfortunately, HE IMO-for whatever reason-did have some self esteem issues. Her physical beauty is obvious to those who knew her then and those of us who see her now, but what good does it do? Everything now is just a second guess in that department, and probably causes pain for her parents. It seems that HE with married, supportive parents involved with their children's lives as well as church and community-would have a good sense of self worth. Perhaps her ego suffered from bullies in school or some area of her life that has remained hidden from us, for now. Maybe self esteem is just something we are born with to a degree. IDK, but for her parents-she JUST moved out of their home and this happened. That is a horror, I can not imagine.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Unfortunately, HE IMO-for whatever reason-did have some self esteem issues. Her physical beauty is obvious to those who knew her then and those of us who see her now, but what good does it do? Everything now is just a second guess in that department, and probably causes pain for her parents. It seems that HE with married, supportive parents involved with their children's lives as well as church and community-would have a good sense of self worth. Perhaps her ego suffered from bullies in school or some area of her life that has remained hidden from us, for now. Maybe self esteem is just something we are born with to a degree. IDK, but for her parents-she JUST moved out of their home and this happened. That is a horror, I can not imagine.

You can have it all, and still have low self esteem. For example, people might see Heather working at TK, and think how confident she must be, but we know that Heather wanted to lose at least 30 pounds. I think Heather put out this front of a confident girl, but she was not. The difference between how Heather tried to come across on Twitter and her actions that night are like night and day.

 

[Ghostwheel]

I think it comes down to very little self esteem. Why would she would leave her apartment at 3 AM for someone who made no effort to contact her in weeks? Would he not love her in the morning? At her own apartment? Why would she think that some guy who had sex with her a few times was going to leave his wife for her? Did they go on dates? Did they hang out at her apartment or at his house? Did they have conversations, or was it just physical? I think Heather was crying because she truly thought her life was going to change. Maybe she did hesitate, but her going to PTL tells me she bought what Sidney was telling her.

ETA: I think Heather did feel an emotional connection with Sidney, but I do not think he felt the same way. There are many women who sleep with guys and become attached (and many who don't). So Heather could have thought they were in love, even if their whole relationship was only them having sex. It is not unusual to look for love in the wrong places. I think her actions that night show that she was desperately looking for attention, approval, even love, and here was someone (who she thought) was giving it to her.

I'm not sure about the self esteem issue. I agree most girls that age are still figuring things out, which in general leads to self esteem issues. But BBM: you are taking TM's account that SM and Heather only had sex a few times. We don't know if that is true or not. For all we know, SM and Heather had a major romance going. (or not) What the actual (original) relationship was is still really unknown.

I agree that going to PTL means Heather bought what SM told her (if she really did drive herself), but what did SM tell her? That he had something of hers that she really wanted back and he wouldn't give it to her unless she came to PTL? That he wanted to come over to her house and talk to her, but she said no and they agreed to PTL? That he only had this time in the middle of the night because TM was monitoring him? That he was going to kill himself if she didn't show up?

There are several reasons right off the top of my head that would make Heather go to PTL in the middle of the night that have nothing to do with self esteem and everything to do with being clueless as to when and ex is trying to control you (raise your hand if anyone out there has had an ex try to control you, and you felt like a total idiot when you fell for it....) JMO.

 

[Surfside]

But could she have not spent those 45 minutes getting ready, and when she started calling Sidney back when she was ready to leave? (I am not looking at the timeline at the moment so this might not make sense).

For me, personally, I'm going to have to file that under "possible," not "probable." How much "getting ready" does a girl need to do AFTER a 1st date? I can see a little touch-up, but not much more.

(Then again, I'm a tomboy and have no clue what I'm talking about, when it comes to fussing over my appearance. Pair that, with the number of years it's been since I was 20 years old, and yeah. You can ignore anything I say, in regards to makeup, uncomfortable shoes, or celebrity gossip.) :blushing:

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I'm not sure about the self esteem issue. I agree most girls that age are still figuring things out, which in general leads to self esteem issues. But BBM: you are taking TM's account that SM and Heather only had sex a few times. We don't know if that is true or not. For all we know, SM and Heather had a major romance going. (or not) What the actual (original) relationship was is still really unknown.

I agree that going to PTL means Heather bought what SM told her (if she really did drive herself), but what did SM tell her? That he had something of hers that she really wanted back and he wouldn't give it to her unless she came to PTL? That he wanted to come over to her house and talk to her, but she said no and they agreed to PTL? That he only had this time in the middle of the night because TM was monitoring him? That he was going to kill himself if she didn't show up?

There are several reasons right off the top of my head that would make Heather go to PTL in the middle of the night that have nothing to do with self esteem and everything to do with being clueless as to when and ex is trying to control you (raise your hand if anyone out there has had an ex try to control you, and you felt like a total idiot when you fell for it....) JMO.

I think that someone with high self esteem would not inconvenience themselves for someone who didn't say a word to them in weeks.

I don't buy that Heather believed Sidney was being abused. This was a "manly" man who did handiwork at her job and he is claiming he is being abused by his wife, not just physically but emotionally too? Apparently, Heather thought that he could not contact her for weeks because of Tammy. She keeps him locked up or is tracking his every move, or something crazy like that. Thinking about how our society sees woman-on-man abuse, and abuse that doesn't involve tons of bruises, I do not buy that Heather (or most people) would be all that understanding towards this older man who claims hardcore abuse by his wife. This man at your work who fixes things is completely controlled by his wife?