The Pontiac - "Revisted" #1

[EricaG]

Thank you--this post clearly and concisely summarized all my thought. Of the thousands of theories ans scenarios that we have played with, it truly is the simplest "gut instict" we all had to begin with.:clap::clap:

 

[EricaG]

Thank you--this post clearly and concisely summarized all my thoughts. Of the thousands of theories ans scenarios that we have played with, it truly is the simplest "gut instict" we all had to begin with.:clap::clap:

 

[Boston]

I think Caylee's death was brought on by one of the following scenerios

1) She drugged Caylee with Chloroform & let her sleep in the trunk so she could stay at Tony's after the fight with her Mother. The next morning Caylee was dead.

2) During the argument on June 15th Cindy gave Casey an ultimatum....."Find a job & a place of your own to live or I'm going to file for custody of Caylee." Casey became so enraged that she killed Caylee to prevent Cindy from ever "Taking Her"

 

[lannie]

I understand what you are implying but I think KC drove around in that car with Caylee's body in the trunk untill KC could not stand the decaying smell any longer, I think the baby died in the trunk of that car ,I think KC put her in there while she partied all night ,then when to someone's home sleep or what evey & did not get her baby out in time, before the hot sun got her, that could be why the remaines did not have clohing on it as the child could of pulled them off as she got hoter & hoter, ,I think she left the body in the car until it began to rot ,hence the evidence of a body in the trunk ,that took time .
Pizza left in heat drys up gets as hard as a rock ,maggets do not live in extream heat ,they have that bag ,wonder if there will be a match to the bag the baby was found in .

 

[Shar824]

I understand what you are implying but I think KC drove around in that car with Caylee's body in the trunk untill KC could not stand the decaying smell any longer, I think the baby died in the trunk of that car ,I think KC put her in there while she partied all night ,then when to someone's home sleep or what evey & did not get her baby out in time, before the hot sun got her, that could be why the remaines did not have clohing on it as the child could of pulled them off as she got hoter & hoter, ,I think she left the body in the car until it began to rot ,hence the evidence of a body in the trunk ,that took time .
Pizza left in heat drys up gets as hard as a rock ,maggets do not live in extream heat ,they have that bag ,wonder if there will be a match to the bag the baby was found in .

From what I understand in GA's interview with LE/FBI he stated the bag in the back of the car was one of those white/opaque 13 gal bags with drawstrings, the bag the remains were in was one of the large black lawn/leaf type bags.

 

[Fridawolf]

If this murder was premeditated, it was a really crappy job…

I know that isn’t much of a surprise considering everything we’ve learned about KC over the past six months.

However, I’ve always had the feeling that this whole situation was at least loosely premeditated – at least along the lines of random fantasies of revenge on CA, a quick peek at a chloroform site here and a missing children’s site there… daydreams about being the new, hot single girl around town, etc.

I don’t believe she ever really thought the details through, however. I think, with KC’s entire life spent within the Anthony bubble, she truly believed this issue would exist only within that bubble – as long as she kept her mother at bay she’d be fine. Hence no real effort to cover her tracks.

I know most / all of this has been said before.

What I’m getting at here (and I hope I can verbalize this correctly), is how shockingly simple the whole scenario has turned out to be. She did the deed, drove to her parent’s, climbed into the woods… and took care of the remains (and likely “jogged” back to her house from the entrance to the woods on Suburban).

But I just can’t stop thinking about that car. This case’s “Tell-tale Heart,” if you will. KC erased her daughter from her life, and quickly moved on as if nothing had happened. Until a smell started to emanate from the trunk that she could not get rid of. It got worse, and worse, and worse. That car, that smell, that constant reminder of what had occurred. The ticking tell-tale heart. It got so bad that she was forced to abandon her car. And then things went completely awry.

And now, when all is said and done, with the location of poor Caylee’s remains, I cannot help thinking…

She didn’t even need that car.

If she had thought about doing this – why not just do it in the yard (as some have speculated) and toss the body back in the woods? No decomp in the car – no CA calling police on the smell, etc.

I know there are a million other scenarios at play – why it must have happened elsewhere, a crime of passion or anger after the big fight… she probably didn’t realize decomp would leave such a lasting trail so quickly, etc.

But – if we are to assume that she put some thought into this scenario before actually taking action… I can’t help but think what would have happened if she had just done the deed the Anthony’s yard. They would have noticed an odd smell a week or so later, moved a few bushes and pavers around, and washed their hands of it.

And KC might still be cooking dinner at Tony’s apartment this evening.

And that, fellow sleuthers, is the scariest part of all...

Now that you mention "jogging," does anybody remember reading in one of the interviews that one of KC's friends asked her if it were her they saw jogging down Chicksaw (Street, Road..whatever it is) to which she replied "No." I believe the guy in the interview was referring to a text message he sent KC during that time period in June. Am I right about that?

 

[april_showers]

Now that you mention "jogging," does anybody remember reading in one of the interviews that one of KC's friends asked her if it were her they saw jogging down Chicksaw (Street, Road..whatever it is) to which she replied "No." I believe the guy in the interview was referring to a text message he sent KC during that time period in June. Am I right about that?

it was Chris S I believe - saw her jogging in that area the morning of the 15th - and texted her about it. she was very quick to claim there was no way it could have been her...

Don't have the link to the docs right now (busy at work - and already spending way too much time here instead of working ), but that's just what I recall

 

[Origrammi]

I think Caylee's death was brought on by one of the following scenerios

1) She drugged Caylee with Chloroform & let her sleep in the trunk so she could stay at Tony's after the fight with her Mother. The next morning Caylee was dead.

2) During the argument on June 15th Cindy gave Casey an ultimatum....."Find a job & a place of your own to live or I'm going to file for custody of Caylee." Casey became so enraged that she killed Caylee to prevent Cindy from ever "Taking Her"

I just heard this on HLN...Atty' said first degree murder in Florida would have to have circumstances relating to extreme neglet or abuse and he mentioned 3 things...one of which was "CAGED". He said there is no evidence of that...

Maybe I'm wrong here but L.P. said there was a witness that saw Casey in the parking lot of (I believe he said hotel) in the wee hours of a morning pacing and talking on the cell phone....Stick with me here...

If Casey had been used to putting duct tape over the baby's mouth and putting her in the trunk, or even if she only did it one time resulting in her death...

Wouldn't the trunk of that car serve the same purpose as a CAGE???

I read in other threads Caylee had a red rash around her mouth...that could have been from placing tape there.

In short, the trunk of the car IMO is no different than a cage and should be considered as such at trial. Anyone else have an idea on this one?

 

[Marple]

it was Chris S I believe - saw her jogging in that area the morning of the 15th - and texted her about it. she was very quick to claim there was no way it could have been her...

Don't have the link to the docs right now (busy at work - and already spending way too much time here instead of working ), but that's just what I recall

Chris S believed he saw her jogging down Chickasaw on July 15.
http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photo...opherstutz/1/lg/Christopher_Stutz_Page_12.htm

 

[AZlawyer]

Chris S believed he saw her jogging down Chickasaw on July 15.
http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photo...opherstutz/1/lg/Christopher_Stutz_Page_12.htm

It turned out once his text messages were released that it was July 14 he thought he saw her.

 

[Forensic fan]

I was wondering, what will they do with the Pontiac after this is all over? I'm thinking they'd just take it to the junk yard if it still smells so bad.

 

[frenchvixen]

Last night NG mentioned that one very important point is to make sure that the car was always in KC's posession. This will be important in proving her guilt b/c if the hair in the trunk matches the hair on the skull, then it can be proven that she killed Caylee b/c she was the one driving the car. I remember the A's saying that there was no smell in the car when it was towed (how did she know that?). I'm sure JB will try to say that the car was not continuously with KC.

Do we know of any other person borrowing or driving that car up until KC abandoned it at Amscot? Also, is there a way that JB can discredit the tow truck operators when they testify that the car was always there? Is there 24hour service at Amscot? What about the tow truck operator who said that he didn't smell anything? Can this be seen as suspicious during trial?

 

[reeseeva]

Just heard on NG last night that not matter what forensics are linked to Casey from the trunk of the car the prosecution would have to show that she had continuous use of the car. Can someone enlighten me as to where the car was from June 16th until it got towed.

Also Casey did not stay a home after the 16th......where was she from that date until July 15th. I recall that AL went away on a trip....where was she staying?

Another thought, looking at the ping map on the 16th, she was up all night according to calls or texts. Was she home or out driving around?

Thanks to anyone who can help!

 

[JWG]

I just posted the following on the PC and related searches thread in response to chloroform searches. However, I believe it also belongs here because, IMHO, it provides an explanation as to when the car was cleaned, why it was cleaned, and how chloroform may have ended up in the trunk.

George and Cindy drive to the tow yard to retrieve the Pontiac. It is important to remember that neither at that point in time have any idea whatsoever that Caylee is missing. They simply believe Casey has been preventing them from seeing her.

George opens the car door and smells what he believes is human decomposition (and we later learn he was correct.) Mr. Burch smells it too.

George is obviously worried it might be Caylee or even Casey. He asks Mr. Burch to go to the trunk with him. They open the trunk and there is no body, but there is a bag of trash with flies and maggots on it. Mr. Burch says that must be the source of the smell and tosses the bag. George never inspects the garbage to make sure there was a pizza in it - why should he?

IMHO, it is quite reasonable for George to temporarily accept this alternate explanation for the smell because he is not aware that Caylee is missing.

Progressing with the sequence of events, George drives the car home, puts it in the garage, and disconnects the battery just in case his daughter shows up and tries to drive it away. Cindy comments on the smell being that of something dead. George says there was a bag of garbage in the trunk with a pizza in it and that the bag had maggots and flies on it. Cindy asks if it was the pizza and George says it was. Again, a reminder that to this point neither knows Caylee is missing.

I can imagine George then saying a few things about how irresponsible Casey had become to abandon a perfectly good vehicle, never tell her parents about it, and on top of all that leave a bag of rotting garbage in the trunk while the car sat in the hot Florida sun for two weeks.

The two try to air out the car while it is parked in the garage, and I believe they try to clean it. First they spray the bugs in the trunk with pesticide, which may have been manufactured with chloroform as a solvent. Then they vacuum out the dead bugs and other debris. They try to clean the stain in the trunk, which they believe came from the trash bag. They may have used their portable steam cleaner to do this. They may have used dry cleaning fluid to do this which, by the way, has chloroform as an ingredient.

Cindy cleans out the interior, seeing Casey's slacks, noticing the smell, and tossing them in the wash. Remember, they are trying to clean a stinking car their daughter abandoned and they had to "bail out" for several hundred dollars. They still do not have any clue Caylee is missing.

Cindy texts Casey, gets a response, texts her back, gets another response. No idea what was in that exchange. George takes off for work.

Cindy continues going through the car and runs across Amy's resume. Apparently Cindy's text exchange earlier with Casey did not satisfy the question(s) she had, so she calls Amy and asks her to take her to Casey.

During the ride over Cindy complains about Casey. IIRC it ran the gamut of her stealing, lying, not letting them see Casey. They arrive at Tony's, get Casey, and drive back to Ric's to drop Amy off.

Now Cindy wants some answers. She is angry and confused, and Casey is not giving her a story that makes sense. They drive to a police station, and from the parking lot Cindy makes the first 911 call. She also calls George. George calls Lee and asks him to head over to their house to help Cindy get to the bottom of whatever is going on. Cindy drives back to the home with Casey - Lee is already there.

Cindy makes a second 911 call. Continues trying to talk to Casey and get some answers. George heads home from work. Cindy leaves the room and Lee tries talking to her. It is then that Casey mentions the kidnapping story which Cindy overhears. She rushes in, gets more information from Casey, and goes into a panic. I submit that this is the point where Cindy first puts two and two together.

She calls 911 again, this time mentioning the car smell and missing baby, and George happens to walk in on the call.

I do not view their cleaning of the call earlier as anything but innocent given they were not working with all the facts. If they hid the fact they cleaned the car in later LE interviews, that is obstruction. But the act itself was not.

 

[chris1990]

I just posted the following on the PC and related searches thread in response to chloroform searches. However, I believe it also belongs here because, IMHO, it provides an explanation as to when the car was cleaned, why it was cleaned, and how chloroform may have ended up in the trunk.

George and Cindy drive to the tow yard to retrieve the Pontiac. It is important to remember that neither at that point in time have any idea whatsoever that Caylee is missing. They simply believe Casey has been preventing them from seeing her.

George opens the car door and smells what he believes is human decomposition (and we later learn he was correct.) Mr. Burch smells it too.

George is obviously worried it might be Caylee or even Casey. He asks Mr. Burch to go to the trunk with him. They open the trunk and there is no body, but there is a bag of trash with flies and maggots on it. Mr. Burch says that must be the source of the smell and tosses the bag. George never inspects the garbage to make sure there was a pizza in it - why should he?

IMHO, it is quite reasonable for George to temporarily accept this alternate explanation for the smell because he is not aware that Caylee is missing.

Progressing with the sequence of events, George drives the car home, puts it in the garage, and disconnects the battery just in case his daughter shows up and tries to drive it away. Cindy comments on the smell being that of something dead. George says there was a bag of garbage in the trunk with a pizza in it and that the bag had maggots and flies on it. Cindy asks if it was the pizza and George says it was. Again, a reminder that to this point neither knows Caylee is missing.

I can imagine George then saying a few things about how irresponsible Casey had become to abandon a perfectly good vehicle, never tell her parents about it, and on top of all that leave a bag of rotting garbage in the trunk while the car sat in the hot Florida sun for two weeks.

The two try to air out the car while it is parked in the garage, and I believe they try to clean it. First they spray the bugs in the trunk with pesticide, which may have been manufactured with chloroform as a solvent. Then they vacuum out the dead bugs and other debris. They try to clean the stain in the trunk, which they believe came from the trash bag. They may have used their portable steam cleaner to do this. They may have used dry cleaning fluid to do this which, by the way, has chloroform as an ingredient.

Cindy cleans out the interior, seeing Casey's slacks, noticing the smell, and tossing them in the wash. Remember, they are trying to clean a stinking car their daughter abandoned and they had to "bail out" for several hundred dollars. They still do not have any clue Caylee is missing.

Cindy texts Casey, gets a response, texts her back, gets another response. No idea what was in that exchange. George takes off for work.

Cindy continues going through the car and runs across Amy's resume. Apparently Cindy's text exchange earlier with Casey did not satisfy the question(s) she had, so she calls Amy and asks her to take her to Casey.

During the ride over Cindy complains about Casey. IIRC it ran the gamut of her stealing, lying, not letting them see Casey. They arrive at Tony's, get Casey, and drive back to Ric's to drop Amy off.

Now Cindy wants some answers. She is angry and confused, and Casey is not giving her a story that makes sense. They drive to a police station, and from the parking lot Cindy makes the first 911 call. She also calls George. George calls Lee and asks him to head over to their house to help Cindy get to the bottom of whatever is going on. Cindy drives back to the home with Casey - Lee is already there.

Cindy makes a second 911 call. Continues trying to talk to Casey and get some answers. George heads home from work. Cindy leaves the room and Lee tries talking to her. It is then that Casey mentions the kidnapping story which Cindy overhears. She rushes in, gets more information from Casey, and goes into a panic. I submit that this is the point where Cindy first puts two and two together.

She calls 911 again, this time mentioning the car smell and missing baby, and George happens to walk in on the call.

I do not view their cleaning of the call earlier as anything but innocent given they were not working with all the facts. If they hid the fact they cleaned the car in later LE interviews, that is obstruction. But the act itself was not.

thank you, this is exactly how i see it too. they are greiving and my heart goes out to them. they just never wanted to execpt Caylee was gone.

 

[DAWN TREADER]

Personally, I think it is very interesting (read highly probative) that GA asks the storage yard owner to look in the trunk with him.

DT

 

[costalpilot]

I
She didn’t even need that car.

If she had thought about doing this – why not just do it in the yard (as some have speculated) and toss the body back in the woods? No decomp in the car – no CA calling police on the smell, etc.
.

indecision, second quessing, paranoria......she did the deed and put caylee in the tunk til she could come up with the time and the right place to get rid of her, but she certainly was not thinking she would dump her that cloae to home.

at first.

then the paranoia set in and she faced the daunting prospect of driving somewhere in the city, taking her out of the car, and disposing of her in a public area.

then her fears got the best of her and she took the most secretive way out.
not what she would have chosen in a less heated situation,

imo

 

[lannie]

If this murder was premeditated, it was a really crappy job…

I know that isn’t much of a surprise considering everything we’ve learned about KC over the past six months.

However, I’ve always had the feeling that this whole situation was at least loosely premeditated – at least along the lines of random fantasies of revenge on CA, a quick peek at a chloroform site here and a missing children’s site there… daydreams about being the new, hot single girl around town, etc.

I don’t believe she ever really thought the details through, however. I think, with KC’s entire life spent within the Anthony bubble, she truly believed this issue would exist only within that bubble – as long as she kept her mother at bay she’d be fine. Hence no real effort to cover her tracks.

I know most / all of this has been said before.

What I’m getting at here (and I hope I can verbalize this correctly), is how shockingly simple the whole scenario has turned out to be. She did the deed, drove to her parent’s, climbed into the woods… and took care of the remains (and likely “jogged” back to her house from the entrance to the woods on Suburban).

But I just can’t stop thinking about that car. This case’s “Tell-tale Heart,” if you will. KC erased her daughter from her life, and quickly moved on as if nothing had happened. Until a smell started to emanate from the trunk that she could not get rid of. It got worse, and worse, and worse. That car, that smell, that constant reminder of what had occurred. The ticking tell-tale heart. It got so bad that she was forced to abandon her car. And then things went completely awry.

And now, when all is said and done, with the location of poor Caylee’s remains, I cannot help thinking…

She didn’t even need that car.

If she had thought about doing this – why not just do it in the yard (as some have speculated) and toss the body back in the woods? No decomp in the car – no CA calling police on the smell, etc.

I know there are a million other scenarios at play – why it must have happened elsewhere, a crime of passion or anger after the big fight… she probably didn’t realize decomp would leave such a lasting trail so quickly, etc.

But – if we are to assume that she put some thought into this scenario before actually taking action… I can’t help but think what would have happened if she had just done the deed the Anthony’s yard. They would have noticed an odd smell a week or so later, moved a few bushes and pavers around, and washed their hands of it.

And KC might still be cooking dinner at Tony’s apartment this evening.

And that, fellow sleuthers, is the scariest part of all...

I still think little Caylee died in that trunk & CA let ther lay in there untill she started to decay .

 

[Secretsolver]

When GA was at the tow yard, I thought it was said that GA had mentioned to the tow yard guy that his daughter had been missing and that they did not know where their Granddaughter was.If this is the case, then WHY would GA take the stinky car home and begin to scrub it down when at that time they did not know if Caylee was okay at that point? He testified to authorities that he (GA) asked Simon the tow guy to help him open the trunk all the while praying "please don't let this smell be my grand daughter"
SO, IMO scrubbing that trunk, cleaning the car, and washing Caseys smelly clothing were all indicative of the A's trying to cover things up.

 

[karenz]

Doc dump of 1/21/09 says GAS GUAGE WORKING which means another lie from KC. Which says to me she made that up to keep people away from the smelly car AND she made other people buy her gas.