The Pontiac - "Revisted" #1

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JWG, I agree with your post. I'm thinking KC must have torn a bag and done something that allowed fluid to leak when she disposed of Caylee. Maybe it took a few days for the smell to "develop".

Tony thinks he rode in KC's car on June 19. He was close to the car on June 23. George was close enough to KC's car trunk to say he saw clothes in KC's trunk. He says no smell but ?. I wonder if George saw actual clothes or a laundry bag?

Soon afterwards KC is complaining to Amy about a dead squirrel smell on her car. There is no meat in the car trash to attract the kind of flies the entomologist suspects might have been in the trash in KC's car trunk. Just paper and plastic.
 
JWG, I agree with your post. I'm thinking KC must have torn a bag and done something that allowed fluid to leak when she disposed of Caylee. Maybe it took a few days for the smell to "develop".

You know, think about this for a sec. Imagine a trash bag, the kind with the pull handles, just like the one that Caylee was bagged in. Imagine the handles cinched completely, as tight as they can go. There's still going to be a tiny hole at the top, where it gathers, know what I mean? That's never going to close completely. My point is that a bag didn't have to rip for fluid to leak out. Even double, triple bagged, the fluid could, and probably did, leak out through the top of the bag where it gathers together.

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Duct tape was on the mouth. Was she hoping the cops would think that was Jesse's tape? And if the duct tape could be linked to her or her house, then why not pull it off the face before walking away from the dump site?

snipped for brevity

Why not pull the duct tape off her face? I don't think she wanted to look at what was left of Caylee's face. Her eyes and face were probably crawling with maggots, her skin was probably getting mushy by then. Rotting skin would have come off with the tape. If the act of killing her didn't give her nightmares, looking at her after a couple of days certainly would have.

Good gracious, I hate her.
 
I posted a theory on KC and the evolving trunk smell here back in May. I thought it might be useful to bring forward. BTW, I believe Caylee was dumped on Suburban Dr. on the 20th.

I thought it would be good to put WAISI's observation and Bond's added detail in some timeline perspective.

June 20 - The smell of decomp might have been noticeable to a small degree in the trunk, which may have prompted KC to attempt to clean the trunk when she backed into the garage at her parents that day. It is likely the smell had not yet become noticeable in the passenger compartment, and the reasons why will become apparent below.

June 21 and June 22 - Based on pings, it appears KC never left Tony's and therefore would not have noticed any change in the smell of the car, because she did not use the car.

June 23 - TL was near the front passenger side of the Pontiac as KC poured gas into the car. KC was between him and the trunk. When KC opened the trunk to put the cans away TL turned to go shut the tailgate on his Jeep, walking away from the car. TL notes that KC made no attempt to keep him from the trunk, the only odd thing being (in his mind) that she wanted to pour the gas herself.

The fact that she let him near the car leads me to believe no smell had yet permeated the passenger compartment. Also, it seems likely that KC opened the trunk for the very first time since June 20 when she put the gas cans away, likely receiving a hefty waft of decomp in the process. :yuck: KC dodged a bullet because Tony had begun to walk away and was "shielded" by gasoline fumes between him and the trunk. :whistle:

June 24 - Now KC knows she has a problem with the odor in her trunk. This is why she blows past dad when he wants to get the tool from her trunk - she cannot let him smell it. GA does get close to the car, but never got to the rear of the vehicle before KC shoved the gas cans into his hands. Given the trunk was opened just briefly before George got there and the car was parked outside, there was ample time for what little odor escaped to dissipate enough so as not to register to GA. KC dodges another. :yow:

I think WAISI's initial observation that KC had to ditch the car somewhere due to the smell so that she did not have to use it to take AL to the airport still holds. To me, she begins formulating the plan the afternoon of the 24th or sometime on the 25th. :idea:

Knowing she only had a couple gallons of gas in the tank, she was pretty confident :snooty: she would run out by the evening of the 29th, thus avoiding using the car the morning of the 30th. After running out she would need to get the car back after taking Tony to the airport.

I don't think KC had things completely worked out in her mind, but it seems her first instinct was to enlist Amy's help to get gas for the car. This meant she had to explain the smell in advance so as not to surprise Amy :eek: when they both showed up to put gas in the car, thus prompting two advance calls and text.

June 25 - Either on this day or possibly the 24th (while driving away from the 'rents after racing George to the trunk) KC tells Amy about a horrible smell in the car during a phone conversation. She blames it on her dad, who she claims ran over something and it got stuck to the car. She said the smell was coming from the engine, so clearly by this time it has entered the passenger compartment.

June 26 - In a second phone conversation, KC tells Amy the smell has gotten much worse. :sick:

June 27 - In a text to Amy while driving north from the 'rents to TL's - before ditching the car at Amscot - KC tells Amy "There was definitely part of a dead animal plastered to the frame of my car." KC then texts Amy about running out of gas a few minutes later.

Of course she told Tony a different story - that the car had broken down and she contacted her dad, who would take care of it. Nevertheless, her plan is off to a great start. :woohoo:

June 28 - Sometime on Saturday KC realizes she has a real problem with the smell in the car, and formulates a plan to throw Jesse under the bus. Her first attempt is to call him around 1:30 PM and ask him if she can borrow his gas can. He is on the other side of town, however, and declines. :banghead:

June 29 - Knowing she has to get the car she reverts to the original plan and enlists Amy's help. She texts Amy on Sunday and asks if she can borrow her gas cans, but Amy reminds her they are in storage. Seems nothing is going her way. :banghead:

June 30 - Not to be denied, KC shows up at Amy's and they go to Target around noon to get a gas can (with Amy's money, of course :thumb:). After Amy leaves for work KC drives to the Amscot to put gas in the car, but sees it is missing. :banghead:

What puzzles me is what her plan was if the car was still there there. Leave Tony's jeep and take the Pontiac back to Tony's? The distance between the two is only 2.8 miles, so KC could have jogged or walked it, I suppose.

I am not convinced that KC breathed a sigh of relief when she saw the car was missing. She had to realize someone else had it and would eventually figure out what was causing the smell. I think this is what prompted her to make a second attempt at throwing Jesse under the bus.

July 1 - In the morning, KC leaves Andy F.'s and drives back to TL's apartment, where she stays for about 15 minutes - probably picking up some clothing. Then she calls Jesse and asks if she can take a shower at his place because she does not have a key to Tony's. :liar: Lot's of driving around for someone who can't afford gas, IMHO. :rolleyes:

I have no idea what her plan was, but it clearly started with seduction - leaving the bathroom door partly opened while she showered. Perhaps she was planning to steal something of value and place it at the crime scene after she'd finished bedding him, as has been speculated by many on this board. But Jesse did not fall for it, and luckily his roommate showed up soon after.

It is possible she actually did take something and plant it at the scene. KC pinged in an area consistent with the crime scene on two occasions during the evening of July 1: 7:15PM and 8:30 PM. In both cases she was there long enough to plant evidence. If she did plant something, whatever it was deteriorated by Dec. 11. :doh:
I agree and see every thing you pointed out but there has got to be some info from Amy we have not seen surely she was asked with the pings showing she and KC went to the amscott with the new gas can what KC told her when they arrived and the car was gone? I think I know females well enough to believe that this would have been a question Amy would have most likely ask KC. She would have wanted an explanation as to why the car was not there when they arrived.
Knowing KC style I am sure she had an excuse but I am just sure she had to offer Amy some explanation and I am pretty sure LE has ask Amy about this also.
 
I agree and see every thing you pointed out but there has got to be some info from Amy we have not seen surely she was asked with the pings showing she and KC went to the amscott with the new gas can what KC told her when they arrived and the car was gone? I think I know females well enough to believe that this would have been a question Amy would have most likely ask KC. She would have wanted an explanation as to why the car was not there when they arrived.
Knowing KC style I am sure she had an excuse but I am just sure she had to offer Amy some explanation and I am pretty sure LE has ask Amy about this also.
If I remember correctly, Amy left for work and KC pinged around the Amscott after Amy had left so she was most probably alone when she discovered that the car was gone.

MOO
 
I thought her excuse to Tony was that her dad was going to get the car and fix it for her. I would imagine she'd use the same excuse to Amy, given that even liars want to keep the lies to a minimum.
 
I was falling asleep but heard her call in. Here's part of the transcript from CNN:

ANTHONY: The reason I called.

GRACE: . the photographer that took those photos has given us the date of five days after Caylee went missing, which was the 15th. I know that you guys saw her on the morning of the 16th. And the others are taken by a fellow partier, who also states it`s five days later.

So that`s two sources supporting the date of the photos. But forget the photos. I want to.

ANTHONY: OK. Forget the photos. The reason I`m calling is.

GRACE: The search for Caylee.

ANTHONY: All right. Here`s the thing. Your expert witness, who has some, you know -- some experience in this doesn`t have the exact experience that I have. And I -- you know, I understand that he has a perspective that a lot of people don`t have. But to compare Casey to O.J. Simpson, that she had no way out.

Casey had a way out if she wanted to not be a mom anymore. Casey lived in a loving family and so did Caylee. Casey knew that any time she had any opportunity -- and obviously if you guys have photographs of her over the last few years going out and enjoying her life -- you know, enjoying life as a 22-year-old and a 20-year-old and a 21-year-old, and a 19-year-old normally would, she had that opportunity.

So someone needs to step back for a minute and think what changed? What would make sense? Well, what we`ve been saying all along that someone took her daughter. Casey has not an irresponsible mother. She did not leave her car. She`s not embarrassed. I mean to say that it`s an embarrassment that she`s trying to sit in jail to cover up, you know, to think about a cover-up for an embarrassment?

Casey`s a mom that puts an extra key in her pocket every time she takes her daughter in the car because she`s afraid if she tries to grab too many things and she leaves her purse she doesn`t want to lock the car and not have a key that she can get in there and get her purse back out or to take care of her daughter.


Brought this over from a very early thread, BBM and snipped....I did not even remember that CA did a call in with NG, and definately did not remember this part about an extra key. Does this have anything to do with why she left her purse at the Amscot?

Also, there is mention of JG having a key-Did KC leave that pocket-handy key at his house the day she went for a shower there? Is there ANY way for us to find that out, or have these things been discussed here in depth?
 
Jolynna, you made me think of something when you said that Cindy had the week off. Even myself as a mother, I get excited when I know that my mom is going to be able to take care of my child while she's on vacation - because it seems like a vacation for me. So, Casey would have been looking forward to having the week off - so why kill Caylee right before that? This makes me think that it must have been an accident.
 
Jolynna, you made me think of something when you said that Cindy had the week off. Even myself as a mother, I get excited when I know that my mom is going to be able to take care of my child while she's on vacation - because it seems like a vacation for me. So, Casey would have been looking forward to having the week off - so why kill Caylee right before that? This makes me think that it must have been an accident.
Cindy's vacation started weeks after Caylee went missing, so i fail to see any connection.
Also, I sure am glad my idea of a vacation isn't babysitting my grandkids.
 
Does this have anything to do with why she left her purse at the Amscot?
*snipped*

FWIW, the "black bag" that remained in the Pontiac has been widely confused to be a purse. IIRC, it was akin to a CD-case...not a purse per se.
 
Cindy's vacation started weeks after Caylee went missing, so i fail to see any connection.
Also, I sure am glad my idea of a vacation isn't babysitting my grandkids.

CA was on vacation the first week of June as it coincided with her B-day. This is one of the reasons I found it difficult to believe she could not remember that she had seen Caylee during the following week as she had gone back to work and had taken Caylee with her to see her Dad on Father's Day the following weekend AFTER her vacation was over. Little differences in the schedule that would make it easier (for me at least) to piece activities together in hindsight compared to if there had been no recent vacation or holiday, etc.

CA took another week later during July 4 iirc.
 
CA was on vacation the first week of June as it coincided with her B-day. This is one of the reasons I found it difficult to believe she could not remember that she had seen Caylee during the following week as she had gone back to work and had taken Caylee with her to see her Dad on Father's Day the following weekend AFTER her vacation was over. Little differences in the schedule that would make it easier (for me at least) to piece activities together in hindsight compared to if there had been no recent vacation or holiday, etc.

CA took another week later during July 4 iirc.

And wasn't that the week CA, KC and Caylee were supposed to have some "girl time" and bond? IIRC, KC was barely there, which left CA babysitting as usual. I think that might have been one of a few reasons for a fight as early as June 9, as some have speculated, that culminated in the BIG fight on the 15th (particularly since KC left the house about 10 minutes after CA and Caylee left for Mt. Dora - she was probably told she'd better be home when CA got back, and didn't arrive until around 8:30 pm, I believe.

I think the other vacation around the 4th, the Anthonys expected to fix their patio - and if CA had gone out to Universal on July 3 to get Caylee from "Zanny", I think it was that she insisted she wanted her home for the holiday.

Re-reading what JWG posted about the "Jesse plan" - it may be very likely that she went to his place to collect and plant what might appear to be inculpatory evidence against him at the crime scene. She might have also, however, left something behind (as in "they haven't even found the clothes she was wearing" statement).

Her fury at CA for replacing her with Caylee was also strangely transferred to JG, who had the nerve to appear as if he loved an innocent baby more than her lying, thieving mother. This girl doesn't deal with competition for attention well at all.

I'm sure one of the reasons that the Anthony family were so quick to swallow lies about the Grunds is that KC knew she had also filled the Grunds' heads with lies about her own family while she stayed with them and she could never let the two come into contact to compare stories. What is hard to stomach is that the Anthonys are so selective about what stories they believe KC says are true when they have all remarked over and over again about her lying and stealing as if it is some curious anomaly and not her typical M.O.
 
CA was on vacation the first week of June as it coincided with her B-day. This is one of the reasons I found it difficult to believe she could not remember that she had seen Caylee during the following week as she had gone back to work and had taken Caylee with her to see her Dad on Father's Day the following weekend AFTER her vacation was over. Little differences in the schedule that would make it easier (for me at least) to piece activities together in hindsight compared to if there had been no recent vacation or holiday, etc.

CA took another week later during July 4 iirc.

The "accident" theory was being thrown out there as having something to do with it happening "right before" Cindy's vacay.

The poster to whom i was responding was thinking since Cindy was available for babysitting, Casey would not have had a "need" to kill poor Caylee, therefore it must have been an accident. Go figure.

I know about the june vacation and the july one, but I do not understand how your post has anything to do with what I was responding to? Am I missing something?
 
I thought her excuse to Tony was that her dad was going to get the car and fix it for her. I would imagine she'd use the same excuse to Amy, given that even liars want to keep the lies to a minimum.

Remember that CA asked KC while visiting her in jail "why didn't she pick up the car?" Who the h is she and why would CA ask that question in the first place (like she had foreknowledge or had been clued in in some way).
 
The "accident" theory was being thrown out there as having something to do with it happening "right before" Cindy's vacay.

The poster to whom i was responding was thinking since Cindy was available for babysitting, Casey would not have had a "need" to kill poor Caylee, therefore it must have been an accident. Go figure.

I know about the june vacation and the july one, but I do not understand how your post has anything to do with what I was responding to? Am I missing something?

I was just clearing up when CA's vacations were as you said "Cindy's vacation started weeks after Caylee went missing." I didn't mean to sound snarky or anything. :waitasec: Actually Caylee went missing between CA's two vacations. Just trying to be accurate is all. Sorry.

My personal opinion is that CA's vacation early in June may have led to fighting between KC and CA. I posted relentlessly about this months ago. I think CA had been feeling put upon and tired out, used, abused, taken advantage of, etc. I think CA may have been putting her foot down as to being expected to always cover for KC. I think CA wanted some down time for herself and was not getting it. Walk on Mom, Mom will do it, sort of thing. It's how I feel sometimes. Doesn't mean I don't love my kid or husband but they think I'm command central or something and I don't get paid enough! :twocents:
 
Remember that CA asked KC while visiting her in jail "why didn't she pick up the car?" Who the h is she and why would CA ask that question in the first place (like she had foreknowledge or had been clued in in some way).

I listened to that and thought CA said "why didn'tcha pick up the car?"
 
Cindy's vacation started weeks after Caylee went missing, so i fail to see any connection.
Also, I sure am glad my idea of a vacation isn't babysitting my grandkids.

Well, my mom doesn't usually sit home and babysit on her vacations. She usually goes to Disney World or hiking or something. And she always brings my child with her! She has never thought of it as babysitting...

Anyway, back to what you posted. There is a connection b/c Casey was telling her friends that she was getting a vacation from her job -- which was actually Cindy's vaca. I assumed Cindy was going to actually go on vacation and that she would bring Caylee with her since Casey had to "work."
 
Well, my mom doesn't usually sit home and babysit on her vacations. She usually goes to Disney World or hiking or something. And she always brings my child with her! She has never thought of it as babysitting...

Anyway, back to what you posted. There is a connection b/c Casey was telling her friends that she was getting a vacation from her job -- which was actually Cindy's vaca. I assumed Cindy was going to actually go on vacation and that she would bring Caylee with her since Casey had to "work."
Not sure what any of this has to do with the pontiac [thread title],but IMO the events surrounding Caylee's murder had more influence on KC than the fact Cindy was about to take a vacation.
There was animosity and jealousy.Cindy was furious with KC for stealing from her parents.She claims a counselor had suggested kicking KC out.She may have told KC she was going to get custody of Caylee.The motive is still unclear,but it was more than that Caylee was an inconvenience IMO.CA taking a vacation and having Caylee during that time would have changed nothing for KC.KC wasn't looking for a little break from Caylee.
 
Not sure what any of this has to do with the pontiac [thread title],but IMO the events surrounding Caylee's murder had more influence on KC than the fact Cindy was about to take a vacation.
There was animosity and jealousy.Cindy was furious with KC for stealing from her parents.She claims a counselor had suggested kicking KC out.She may have told KC she was going to get custody of Caylee.The motive is still unclear,but it was more than that Caylee was an inconvenience IMO.CA taking a vacation and having Caylee during that time would have changed nothing for KC.KC wasn't looking for a little break from Caylee.

...:clap: on/off-topic observation :)

Lemme suggest the animosity-angle is a perfect fit for the "fight" thread.

And justa tease...lemme suggest IMHO there's a 1:1 correlation 'tween Cindy's vacation and how things escalated to the point they did...but then...that'd be off-topic here :bang:

See ya' on the "fight" thread :wave:
 
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