The Pontiac - "Revisted" #1

[tasylshari]

Email from Erin Martin (FBI) to Karen Cowan (FBI) October 1/08 at 9:47am reads,

"Hi Karen, Did they check for any possible 'stains' on the inside of the vehicle (upholstery or carpeting) that may need to be tested for DNAI or CU? Or will we just be getting the vacuum sweepings / car seat? As for the photo...we just have a small black/white shot noting the A and B staining areas and can't see much else in it - I'll ask around in some of the photo/electronic groups if anything can be done - enhancement-wise."


Email from Karen Cowan (FBI) to Erin Martin (FBI) October 1/08 at 2:25pm reads,

"Erin, Please see the attached photo I wrote about earlier. If you look at the circle on top, right underneath, you would see essentially the back of the child. To the left of the circle, following the line of the back, you could make out the bottom of the child then curving down to the legs, bend, in the fetal position. Once again, look at it on the monitor since a printout does not do it justice at all. This photo is untouched, but when we played with some of the shading on a computer, it enhanced the image a bit. Feel free to forward as necessary.

As far as your other question, I would imagine that OCSO lit the interior up looking for additional staining, however, that has not been reported. I am finishing up the EC right now and will forward you a bootleg copy. The evidence will likely be shipped tomorrow."

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Stories/Local/7-8374-8417_1.pdf
Page 33

 

[tasylshari]

Further, from the same http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Stories/Local/7-8374-8417_1.pdf, page 34

From Karen Cowan to Erin Martin on Sept 30/08 at 5:48pm (not bankers hours!)

"Perhaps I am a bit overzealous, but when ERT processes a vehicle, we process the WHOLE car. OSCO just processed the trunk. So, I requested the baby car seat be brought out of storage and the interior of the vehicle be processed. Once again, we are not certain of where CASEY ANTHONY did what to CAYLEE, but that car is clearly the focus of the investigation. I would like to send you the car seat and the vacuumings from the vehicle to exploit in the various units of the lab. Okay? Absolutely nothing has been done to the seat and remaining items I will send. OCSO also vacuumed the spare tire well of the trunk and that will be included. Perhaps we can continue the search for additional hairs showing signs of decomposition from that vacuum sweep in particular.

Of note, I also noted the photos that were taken in the processing of the trunk. A very interesting photo exists of the trunk liner, which you have, which hilights the very large stain. If you look closely at this photo, there appears to be the outline or wilhouette of a child in the fetal position. You can make out what may be the back, bottom, and legs most clearly. The image is best viewed on a computer screen, rather than a printout, but several of us can see this image and agree there is a good chance we are seeing something significant. What can we do with this? Can this be enhanced? Can this be used to further process that liner focusing on certain areas of this stain? Would it be beneficial to send the photo and the liner to the Body Farm for further analysis? Help. I can send you the photo electronically if you would like to query some folks.

Once again, we in the ORA (Orland Resident Agency of the FBI) so appreciate the hard work of everyone at the Lab. You guys are terrific and we are indebted. I will be in the office on Wednesday, in and out of meetings. Let's connect when you get a chance to absorb some of this information. Anyone else copied can also weigh in, please!"

 

[AZlawyer]

OK, pp. 50-55 of this doc explains that the FBI did not obtain any DNA typing results for any of the trunk liner samples. I believe it is a big overstatement for ClickOrlando to say that the FBI determined that the stain did not contain any bodily fluids. You can't always get DNA results from an item that contains DNA (especially if it gets "cleaned" first....).

http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/0929/21146801.pdf


Someone else posted a link above to this document in which the FBI explains BEFORE it did this testing (p. 73) that it would "attempt to recover any possible DNA" but it was "highly unlikely to recover a type." Which says to me that they believed recovery of DNA from this particular item would be very difficult REGARDLESS of whether the stain was composed of bodily fluids or not. And it looks like they were right.

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Stories/Local/14-8858-8939.pdf

 

[mom2chloe]

OK, pp. 50-55 of this doc explains that the FBI did not obtain any DNA typing results for any of the trunk liner samples. I believe it is a big overstatement for ClickOrlando to say that the FBI determined that the stain did not contain any bodily fluids. You can't always get DNA results from an item that contains DNA (especially if it gets "cleaned" first....).

http://www.clickorlando.com/download/2009/0929/21146801.pdf


Someone else posted a link above to this document in which the FBI explains BEFORE it did this testing (p. 73) that it would "attempt to recover any possible DNA" but it was "highly unlikely to recover a type." Which says to me that they believed recovery of DNA from this particular item would be very difficult REGARDLESS of whether the stain was composed of bodily fluids or not. And it looks like they were right.

http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Stories/Local/14-8858-8939.pdf

I was initially horrified earlier today when I read that no DNA was found in the stain. I remember ages ago that we went back and forth over whether DNA could be found in urine and/or feces fluids but I cannot recall what we determined. Anyone else recall? I have searched endlessly for a thread covering this info but have still not been able to find what I am looking for.

AZLawyer, do you think maybe it was body fluid that had been contaminated with gas or other chemicals? It just occurred to me that although I always thought KC wanted to put the gas in her own car as a means to prevent Tony's fingerprints from being on the gas can, now I am wondering if that is why she insisted on pouring the gas in the pontiac herself. Maybe she only poured a little in the tank then placed the gas can in the trunk to contaminate any evidence later. Given that she gave GA back his effing gas can 6/23, perhaps that is really why she abandoned the car at Amscott and requested the use of others and a gas can. She was trying to cover the stain in gasoline, when she got caught with the gas can, she was SOL.
The subject of the gas cans has seemed hinky to me since day 31. KWIM?

 

[AZlawyer]

I was initially horrified earlier today when I read that no DNA was found in the stain. I remember ages ago that we went back and forth over whether DNA could be found in urine and/or feces fluids but I cannot recall what we determined. Anyone else recall? I have searched endlessly for a thread covering this info but have still not been able to find what I am looking for.

AZLawyer, do you think maybe it was body fluid that had been contaminated with gas or other chemicals? It just occurred to me that although I always thought KC wanted to put the gas in her own car as a means to prevent Tony's fingerprints from being on the gas can, now I am wondering if that is why she insisted on pouring the gas in the pontiac herself. Maybe she only poured a little in the tank then placed the gas can in the trunk to contaminate any evidence later. Given that she gave GA back his effing gas can 6/23, perhaps that is really why she abandoned the car at Amscott and requested the use of others and a gas can. She was trying to cover the stain in gasoline, when she got caught with the gas can, she was SOL.
The subject of the gas cans has seemed hinky to me since day 31. KWIM?

I don't know enough about the practicalities of the DNA testing to explain exactly WHY the FBI couldn't get DNA results if the stain was decomp fluid (or some other bodily fluid(s)). I'm just pointing out that the FBI told the SA BEFORE THEY EVEN TRIED that they thought it was "highly unlikely" the DNA tests would work on this item. So to me that suggests that there was something they knew before they did the tests that made them think the DNA would be unrecoverable or deteriorated. I doubt it was any concern about gas/cleaning fluids because then they wouldn't say test results were "highly unlikely"--they would say "of course, we may not be able to get a type if the sample was contaminated."

 

[Macushla]

Bumping this thread to discuss the differences in LA's depo and Cindy's depo.

Briefly, CA states that she left the windows rolled down, the doors open, the sunroof open, the hood up and the trunk up AFTER she did a little cleaning. I can't find anything that says she went back to the car after she did this and before she went looking for KC.

LA states that when he got to the house the windows of the car were rolled down, the doors were closed, he doesn't remember whether the sunroof was open or not but both the hood and the trunk were closed.

Is one of them lying OR did someone else mess with that car between Cindy cleaning it out and spraying Febreeze and Lee seeing it when he arrived.

 

[notthatsmart]

You posted that George led the detectives to the dumpster for the trash bag to support your contention that the detectives knew about the smell of decomposition in the trunk when they questioned KC.

George did not lead the detectives to the dumpster.

Who told the detectives about the smell in the trunk is not germaine to your contention.

The detectives did not know about the smell of decomposition in the trunk when they questioned KC. They found the smell of decomposition in the trunk *after* they questioned KC, and *after* they investigated KC's contentions.

Okay, In order to collect the garbage from the dumpster on the night of the 15th, you must know it was there. I believe George told LE that the bag was there. Now, why would George tell them about a bag of garbage in a dumpster? They had to be asking him about the smell in the trunk. They also had a 911 call where Cindy said it smelled like a dead body in the trunk.

I just cant help but think they did indeed know about the smell when they were interrogating Casey the next day. I was just wondering why they didn't ask her about it.

 

[cecybeans]

Okay, In order to collect the garbage from the dumpster on the night of the 15th, you must know it was there. I believe George told LE that the bag was there. Now, why would George tell them about a bag of garbage in a dumpster? They had to be asking him about the smell in the trunk. They also had a 911 call where Cindy said it smelled like a dead body in the trunk.

I just cant help but think they did indeed know about the smell when they were interrogating Casey the next day. I was just wondering why they didn't ask her about it.

True, but we are missing so many hours of interview - they took her to OCSO after Universal, didn't they? I think during the part we have access to, they were asking her open-ended questions to get answers about the supposed kidnapping with as much detail as possible without feeding her information about a dead body in the trunk. It would certainly be interesting to see if they did later at any point in their investigation. I am also wondering why CA and LA did not ask her that before LE arrived. Good questions.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Okay, In order to collect the garbage from the dumpster on the night of the 15th, you must know it was there. I believe George told LE that the bag was there. Now, why would George tell them about a bag of garbage in a dumpster? They had to be asking him about the smell in the trunk. They also had a 911 call where Cindy said it smelled like a dead body in the trunk.

I just cant help but think they did indeed know about the smell when they were interrogating Casey the next day. I was just wondering why they didn't ask her about it.

Do you know for a fact that they didn't?

 

[BeanE]

Okay, In order to collect the garbage from the dumpster on the night of the 15th, you must know it was there. I believe George told LE that the bag was there. Now, why would George tell them about a bag of garbage in a dumpster? They had to be asking him about the smell in the trunk. They also had a 911 call where Cindy said it smelled like a dead body in the trunk.

I just cant help but think they did indeed know about the smell when they were interrogating Casey the next day. I was just wondering why they didn't ask her about it.

BBM

As I provided you supporting documentation for, the detectives did not ask KC about the smell of decomposition in the car because they did not know about it until *after* they had questioned her.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Carrying over this image from another thread for discussion. We see the black shoes and at least one(?) black rubber boot. There is the dryer sheet (air freshener sheet). Something else (black?) tucked between the seat and the side area.

I'm attaching another image I have that I thought was the shoes and boots from the car. I'm not so sure any more. Well it was the National Enquirer, LOL.

ETA: removed scanned image

 

[Hot Dogs]

Done and sorry. I wasn't the one who scanned it, and I just found it out there on the web.

 

[JBean]

Done and sorry. I wasn't the one who scanned it, and I just found it out there on the web.

I know, don't worry about it and thank you

 

[BondJamesBond]

It wouldn't hurt to look-up the items inventoried from the car in the docs. But, then again...that would take effort

So....with as little effort as possible seeing...

1) A pair of matching heels. Kinda gray/satin open back w/ wide-straps. The left shoe is easily identifiable on the seat. The right shoe is with the seat belt and dryer sheet lying on its side.

2) Black boot in lower right-hand corner in contorted fashion

3) Some unidentified object(s) in the lower right-hand corner. Maybe something lying in the seat next to the boot. Maybe an optical illusion and be something near the camera lens. Position of camera is interesting...in close quarters of the cabin camera would have to be very near the ceiling (sunroof?). One of/object in the lower right-hand corner has almost a brushed aluminum appearance w/ a black border...shine in corner of objects suggests it might have a raised lip. Appears to have something green in the very lower edge of the pic...e.g. on the item perhaps. Some discussion about potential to be associated w/ the base of the car seat...and/or car seat missing from where it may have been located in other shots.

4) Imagination runs wild w/ apparent items off the edge of the seat. Appears to be at least one item that is blue in color.

 

[cecybeans]

The unidentified object almost looks like a purse with a top flap (the shiny part on the left side makes it look like leather) or a CD case with a zipper down the side and a strap on top with a metal thingamabob latch or something.

I wonder if the doors to that car have built-in molded pockets at the bottom.

I'm full of food so maybe I'll go doc diving...

 

[Harmony 2]

The unidentified object almost looks like a purse with a top flap (the shiny part on the left side makes it look like leather) or a CD case with a zipper down the side and a strap on top with a metal thingamabob latch or something.

I wonder if the doors to that car have built-in molded pockets at the bottom.

I'm full of food so maybe I'll go doc diving...

I am not sure if this is the link you are searching for:

http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0121/18530363.pdf

Happy Thanksgiving Cecy and Bond!!

 

[christee]

The unidentified object almost looks like a purse with a top flap (the shiny part on the left side makes it look like leather) or a CD case with a zipper down the side and a strap on top with a metal thingamabob latch or something.

I wonder if the doors to that car have built-in molded pockets at the bottom.

I'm full of food so maybe I'll go doc diving...

The description of the pic says only that it was from Cindy's deposition.
I think the item in upper left corner might be a clutch type purse with the metal "snap-clip" thingy on top. I tried cropping it from my copy I posted earlier (thx for bumping the pic Hot Dogs).

I also zoomed in on the dryer sheet

 

[cecybeans]

I am not sure if this is the link you are searching for:

http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0121/18530363.pdf

Happy Thanksgiving Cecy and Bond!!

Thank you! How odd, the evidence catalogued for the back seat are two pairs of black shoes (I guess the grayish looking heels and the boots) but no other items are listed. Yet, the report also indicates the black leather bag that CA had placed into the black plastic bag (with knife and other items) for LE.

I don't see any mention of whatever it is we see near the door on this photo. When was it taken?

 

[BondJamesBond]

The description of the pic says only that it was from Cindy's deposition.
I think the item in upper left corner might be a clutch type purse with the metal "snap-clip" thingy on top. I tried cropping it from my copy I posted earlier (thx for bumping the pic Hot Dogs).

I also zoomed in on the dryer sheet

Huge help. The unidentified obect in the lower right-hand corner appears to be the sole of the other boot., eh?

...and is it my imaginzation...or in your zoomed shot of the shoe are we seing the soiled seat (on left side) and where the seat isn't soiled due to the car seat being in? Prolly my imagination...or optical illusion.

Christee...can you zoom w/ same quality on the object(s) off the edge of the seat?

 

[christee]

Huge help. The unidentified obect in the lower right-hand corner appears to be the sole of the other boot., eh?

...and is it my imaginzation...or in your zoomed shot of the shoe are we seing the soiled seat (on left side) and where the seat isn't soiled due to the car seat being in? Prolly my imagination...or optical illusion.

Christee...can you zoom w/ same quality on the object(s) off the edge of the seat?

Yes I believe that is the sole of the other boot.

I'm not sure abt the soiled area since I did play with contrast, saturation, etc...
I could post a supersize pic but Tricia might panic!!

ETA-I think KC was wearing the black boots with the blue mini dress in a party pic (Fusian?, DK).