The Pontiac - "Revisted" #1

[JBean]

IIRC, Lee alluded to it during his first interview in which he describes having a conversation with KC in the garage when LE was there. We may have extrapolated she had LE's permission, but I think in a second interview he confirmed it (maybe the August depo?).

ouch.

 

[cecybeans]

ouch.

But my memory is not good late, so I'll try to look for it if the words don't wiggle too much.

 

[cecybeans]

...seems like the report of shovel borrowing from Brian got the wheels turning to have K9's search the backyard...and in the process examine the Pontiac. IIRC, the LEO was wrapping up his first discussion w/ Brian @ his home when Yuri dispatched him over to the Anthony's (next door) just before the K9's arrived 7/17...thinking around 4-6PM.

I don't have the reports of OCSO visit to Sawgrass handy, but, recall they dropped Casey off @ Hopespring the morning of 7/16 after the drive around that began late PM 7/15, early AM 7/16...only to come back and arrest her ~4PM 7/16.

The blue-handled trash bag @ the towyard was recovered ~9PM just before LE showed up @ the house again on 7/16PM and snapped the pic in the sideyard. The timing of the pic taken in the dumpster and the pic taken in the sideyard suggest they went straight from the towyard to the house. Whether that was planned or not...who knows. But one would think the blue-handled trash bag reeked of decomp and would have sent the responding LEO to the Pontiac regardless of the content of the 3rd 911 call. Not poking @ LE here...thinking that perhaps this is what put the wheels in motion to obtain the car. That I recall...G&C gave the car over w/o a warrant 7/17. As far as LE knew @ this point in time they had grandparents that had reported the crime...hence...no tremendous compulsion to suspect they would interfere w/ the investigation/evidence.

BTW...a little OT. I recall reading another post 'bout G&C's intentions being suspect by pulling the Pontiac into the garage vs. letting it 'air out' outside. I don't recall where I got the impression...but I had the impression that George removed the battery from the car...and I thought that was an effort to keep Casey from showing up when they weren't there and taking the car. Explaining all of that to ask this...I don't recall ever reading how Casey opened G&C's garage door. Do they have RF transmitters and Casey had one? If so...she must've had it in her purse vs. the car (e.g. visor) post-6/27 entries (e.g. 7/2 w/ Sean). Otherwise, it could've been a touchpad mounted to the door w/ a code. Just curious. Otherwise...Casey had access to the garage...so pulling it in there vs. leaving it outside offered no extra protection from Casey taking it :waitasec:

You always have such great detail - thanks! IIRC, LE brought KC back at 2 am the morning of the 16th after her little drive around Orlando - and came back sometime around 8 am that morning to do the Universal tour. I don't recall them taking her home after that, just straight to the cop shop where they continued the interview and then arrested her.

 

[Leila]

I've thought a lot about that car smell and what might have transpired to make it turn out the way it did.

I think we all agree that the smell was mentioned on the third 911 call, but that was after the officers had already been dispatched, and it may not have been relayed to them by the dispatcher. She also may have thought that since CA had mentioned the smell in her call, she would likely impart that information to the officers when they arrived.

When the officers did arrive, it did not seem as if the smell of the car was mentioned by family members. The car was in the garage, but the door was closed. If anyone had noticed the smell, someone may have told them the car had had garbage in the trunk when it had been towed. I got the distinct impression that the car was downplayed, and not just because the central theme of the call was Caylee's whereabouts.

I'm not sure exactly when YM arrived on the scene, but he is an officer that deals with child neglect. Initially the entire family was indicating this was a possible kidnapping that happened at another location. KC and her car had ostensibly not been on the premises much, if at all, for a month. So I think the impression was that nothing about the Anthony home was viewed as a potential crime scene.

Obviously after riding around with KC most of the night, Yuri came up with a different theory as to what was going on. IIRC, he dropped KC back home around 2 am or so and he and the other officers picked her up after 8 am the next morning. At that point, there may have been time to reconcile the reports of the dispatcher/s who took the calls with Yuri's own report of the night before, but perhaps not. However, I thought at the time that the fact JA, who is a homicide cop, was there for the interview at Universal meant that LE suspected foul play.

They knew her car had been in impound for two weeks, but they were careful enough to have sent someone over to the tow lot to grab the garbage bag.

LE also knew when GA and CA had picked up the car, and that CA had admitted to some light "cleaning", so if they had any idea the Pontiac might have been a crime scene, they knew it had already been compromised. I think they were hoping to make headway questioning KC and getting her to admit what happened and did not realize she would become stubbornly uncooperative. They may also have given her parents the benefit of the doubt (seeing as how GA was ex-LE) and not thought that further cleaning of the car or removal of evidence would occur. They also had to reason to believe at this point that her parents would become increasingly uncooperative as the days went on; I think they genuinely believed that KC's parents were more anxious to find Caylee than save KC from being accountable for whatever happened.

I imagine that, in retrospect, they wish they had become suspicious sooner, but they might not have felt until they spent the time with KC that the car was that key a piece of evidence - literally everything she initially told them was that Caylee was with someone else - and it might have been contaminated in many different ways during the last 30 days.

I think you're on target with this scenario. I think the responding officers focus was on a missing child and at that point the Anthony home and vehicles were not suspect or important. It was only after Casey's story/lies started to unravel that the detectives focused on evidence of a possible crime. When they questioned Casey at Universal, it's evident that JA and YM suspected foul play. That interview took place on July 16, and later that day, the car was towed to the police impound.

The Pontiac was compromised the moment George drove it home from the impound yard, hours prior to LE involvement.

 

[TorisMom003]

In Lee Anthony's July 30, 2009 deposition on pages 150-152 Lee talks about Casey being in the garage while police are at the house. Lee also talks about him going into the garage and sitting with her for a bit.

 

[Leila]

Well, I think maybe the fact three separate calls were received and that by the time the smell was mentioned it was the third one, may have been the factor. I doubt most people call three times and I'm not sure the content of any but the first one may have been initially related. I agree it's a good idea to move. I'll put on my seat belt.

The first 911 call, while part of the events of July 15th, is separate from the second and third calls, as the first call was made to the City of Orlando Police Dept. It was in this call that Cindy learned that her home address was in the jurisdiction of the Orange County Sheriffs Office. Cindy drove home and made the second and third calls to the OCSO.

 

[Leila]

I just wonder since they didn't ask her about the smell when they were out at Universal it is possible that they thought the smell was just trash.

At the bond hearing on Tuesday, July 22, Yuri testified that the car smelled of human decomposition.

 

[JBean]

In Lee Anthony's July 30, 2009 deposition on pages 150-152 Lee talks about Casey being in the garage while police are at the house. Lee also talks about him going into the garage and sitting with her for a bit.

Thank you.
So, we have confirmed that LE knew about the smell from the beginning from CA,GA and presumably dispatch.

ETA: GA even told YM that it smelled like "something was dead back there" on the 16th.

Was the car in the garage?

ETA: ok I see in cecybeans post that the car was in the garage.

 

[JBean]

I think you're on target with this scenario. I think the responding officers focus was on a missing child and at that point the Anthony home and vehicles were not suspect or important. It was only after Casey's story/lies started to unravel that the detectives focused on evidence of a possible crime. When they questioned Casey at Universal, it's evident that JA and YM suspected foul play. That interview took place on July 16, and later that day, the car was towed to the police impound.

The Pontiac was compromised the moment George drove it home from the impound yard, hours prior to LE involvement.

Yuri testified at the bond hearing that they took the car the 17th.

I don't think the fact that the car was compromised should not have kept them from impounding the car immediately. Especially since CA and GA were giving them whatever they wanted to find Caylee.

 

[Leila]

...seems like the report of shovel borrowing from Brian got the wheels turning to have K9's search the backyard...and in the process examine the Pontiac. IIRC, the LEO was wrapping up his first discussion w/ Brian @ his home when Yuri dispatched him over to the Anthony's (next door) just before the K9's arrived 7/17...thinking around 4-6PM.

I don't have the reports of OCSO visit to Sawgrass handy, but, recall they dropped Casey off @ Hopespring the morning of 7/16 after the drive around that began late PM 7/15, early AM 7/16...only to come back and arrest her ~4PM 7/16.

The blue-handled trash bag @ the towyard was recovered ~9PM just before LE showed up @ the house again on 7/16PM and snapped the pic in the sideyard. The timing of the pic taken in the dumpster and the pic taken in the sideyard suggest they went straight from the towyard to the house. Whether that was planned or not...who knows. But one would think the blue-handled trash bag reeked of decomp and would have sent the responding LEO to the Pontiac regardless of the content of the 3rd 911 call. Not poking @ LE here...thinking that perhaps this is what put the wheels in motion to obtain the car. That I recall...G&C gave the car over w/o a warrant 7/17. As far as LE knew @ this point in time they had grandparents that had reported the crime...hence...no tremendous compulsion to suspect they would interfere w/ the investigation/evidence.

BTW...a little OT. I recall reading another post 'bout G&C's intentions being suspect by pulling the Pontiac into the garage vs. letting it 'air out' outside. I don't recall where I got the impression...but I had the impression that George removed the battery from the car...and I thought that was an effort to keep Casey from showing up when they weren't there and taking the car. Explaining all of that to ask this...I don't recall ever reading how Casey opened G&C's garage door. Do they have RF transmitters and Casey had one? If so...she must've had it in her purse vs. the car (e.g. visor) post-6/27 entries (e.g. 7/2 w/ Sean). Otherwise, it could've been a touchpad mounted to the door w/ a code. Just curious. Otherwise...Casey had access to the garage...so pulling it in there vs. leaving it outside offered no extra protection from Casey taking it :waitasec:

I remember when the webcam was on the Anthony home, seeing GA or CA use a touch pad mounted on the right side of the garage door to open it.

 

[Leila]

Thank you.
So, we have confirmed that LE knew about the smell from the beginning from CA,GA and presumably dispatch.

ETA: GA even told YM that it smelled like "something was dead back there" on the 16th.

Was the car in the garage?

In Lee Anthony's police interview, he stated that when he arrived at the house, just moments before Cindy and Casey arrived, he let himself in through the side garage door and the car was in the garage. He said that all the windows in the car were rolled down and it was the first time he smelled that odor and described it as overwhelming.

 

[JBean]

In Lee Anthony's police interview, he stated that when he arrived at the house, just moments before Cindy and Casey arrived, he let himself in through the side garage door and the car was in the garage. He said that all the windows in the car were rolled down and it was the first time he smelled that odor and described it as overwhelming.

Thanks leila.

so am I the only one that thinks it is odd that we have a missing baby that is immediatly suspicious because of the 31 day time frame,2 people reporting directly to LE on separate occasions that the car smelled like a dead body, another person confirming that the stench was overwhelming and LE didn't take the car or consider inspecting it, and then let family members have access to it alone?

 

[RR0004]

Thanks leila.

so am I the only one that thinks it is odd that we have a missing baby that is immediatly suspicious because of the 31 day time frame,2 people reporting directly to LE on separate occasions that the car smelled like a dead body, another person confirming that the stench was overwhelming and LE didn't take the car or consider inspecting it, and then let family members have access to it alone?

Do we know for a fact that LE didn't inspect it before taking possession of it?

We spoke a lot about this very early on...so no, you're not odd.

 

[JBean]

Do we know for a fact that LE didn't inspect it before taking possession of it?

We spoke a lot about this very early on...so no, you're not odd.

Well you are absolutely right, I don't know if they inspected it. The reason I said that was because if they inspected it , it would be even more odd that they didn't take it sooner since it had an overwhelming stench of decomp.

Yes we did talk about this early on, but we have more information now that confirms earlier speculation.

 

[RR0004]

Well you are absolutely right, I don't know if they inspected it. The reason I said that was because if they inspected it , it would be even more odd that they didn't take it sooner since it had an overwhelming stench of decomp.

Yes we did talk about this early on, but we have more information now that confirms earlier speculation.

I thought it was strange as well. I'm wondering if they were still hoping beyond hope that Casey would come clean. I know that Cindy and George were cooperating, but there must be paperwork that needs to be filed before they can take actual physical possession and begin processing, no?

 

[JBean]

I thought it was strange as well. I'm wondering if they were still hoping beyond hope that Casey would come clean. I know that Cindy and George were cooperating, but there must be paperwork that needs to be filed before they can take actual physical possession and begin processing, no?

They just asked GA nd CA for it and they gave it freely. he signed an affadavit. It just seems to me that to preserve something that may possily be so rich in evidence due to the decomp smell, should be paramount and not be freely accessible to anyone. Hey even if they sealed it off and told everyone to stay out of it until paperwork was done would be good. GA and CA were totally on board then. but to give KC access..alone? odd

 

[RR0004]

They just asked GA nd CA for it and they gave it freely. he signed an affadavit. It just seems to me that to preserve something that may possily be so rich in evidence due to the decomp smell, should be paramount and not be freely accessible to anyone. Hey even if they sealed it off and told everyone to stay out of it until paperwork was done would be good. GA and CA were totally on board then. but to give KC access..alone? odd

I found Cindy's State depo interesting. They asked a lot of questions about the car. It seems like they spend a lot of time cleaning it...whether it's removing clothes to launder, cleaning out cheerios, or vacuuming the trunk. Yup, according to Cindy...George loves minding the car. After reading her testimony I felt as if I've neglected mine terribly. Even when I had a car with a trunk, I never vacuumed it. Oh, I think we'll hear a lot about the Pontiac.

 

[treeseeker]

I don't believe the evidence points to any thorough trunk cleaning by the A's after they retrieved the car from the tow lot. I found one link pertaining to soil found in the trunk here, pg. 3/41 or 3175:

http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0121/18530363.pdf

There is another detective's report mentioning visible soil in the trunk, but I've yet to find it.

Detectives found the exterior of the car clean, but no one reported observing the A's washing the exterior, or any water in the driveway suggesting a car wash.

 

[songline]

Thanks leila.

so am I the only one that thinks it is odd that we have a missing baby that is immediatly suspicious because of the 31 day time frame,2 people reporting directly to LE on separate occasions that the car smelled like a dead body, another person confirming that the stench was overwhelming and LE didn't take the car or consider inspecting it, and then let family members have access to it alone?

No honey you are not alone at all.
I just got caught up in Jaycee, and Shaniday and this case had me so furious with G & A that I was afraid I would get banned. LOL
IMHO That car should have been confiscated instantly.
IMHO G&A cleaned it of anything that LE daddy could clean out without actually looking way to suspicious...There is not one ounce of doubt in my mind that it took someone with LE knowledge to do a clean up. i said it all on the GA thread.
JMO

 

[JBean]

No honey you are not alone at all.
I just got caught up in Jaycee, and Shaniday and this case had me so furious with G & A that I was afraid I would get banned. LOL
IMHO That car should have been confiscated instantly.
IMHO G&A cleaned it of anything that LE daddy could clean out without actually looking way to suspicious...There is not one ounce of doubt in my mind that it took someone with LE knowledge to do a clean up. i said it all on the GA thread.
JMO

But why should GA and CA take care to preserve evidence when even LE didn't make it a priority or put particular importance on it? LE let KC go to the car alone which tells me the car wasn't even on their radar.

GA was the one that was still insisting weeks later that he was afraid that the smell was caylee when he first got to the towyard. (8-4 interview) he was extremely cooperative and actually so was Cindy.
They reported the car, they reported the odor , they reported items removed, and the fact that they cleaned. They offered up the car freely and without warrant in an effort to help find their granddaughter.

I totally agree that CA and GA have done plenty of fact twisting, mistruths and general carp to hinder this investigation. but the car situation wasn't one of them, imo.

My only interest in this issue is whether or not it will impact the admissibility of any evidence.