The Pontiac - "Revisted" #1

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But why should GA and CA take care to preserve evidence when even LE didn't make it a priority or put particular importance on it? LE let KC go to the car alone which tells me the car wasn't even on their radar.

GA was the one that was still insisting weeks later that he was afraid that the smell was caylee when he first got to the towyard. (8-4 interview) he was extremely cooperative and actually so was Cindy.
They reported the car, they reported the odor , they reported items removed, and the fact that they cleaned. They offered up the car freely and without warrant in an effort to help find their granddaughter.

I totally agree that CA and GA have done plenty of fact twisting, mistruths and general carp to hinder this investigation. but the car situation wasn't one of them, imo.

My only interest in this issue is whether or not it will impact the admissibility of any evidence.
Good thing the bag with human decomp wasn't in the trunk then. But, I don't think it would affect the chloroform evidence would it? I don't think LE knew Casey was in the garage, but I am very curious to know if the trunk was locked then. If the battery was removed, I'd bet the trunk was locked tight. Have there been any reports of that night stating who was where (LE)? I also wish I knew where Cindy was when she was relaying the info about having washed the pants. Did she bring anyone to show where she had found them?
 
But why should GA and CA take care to preserve evidence when even LE didn't make it a priority or put particular importance on it? LE let KC go to the car alone which tells me the car wasn't even on their radar.

GA was the one that was still insisting weeks later that he was afraid that the smell was caylee when he first got to the towyard. (8-4 interview) he was extremely cooperative and actually so was Cindy.
They reported the car, they reported the odor , they reported items removed, and the fact that they cleaned. They offered up the car freely and without warrant in an effort to help find their granddaughter.

I totally agree that CA and GA have done plenty of fact twisting, mistruths and general carp to hinder this investigation. but the car situation wasn't one of them, imo.

My only interest in this issue is whether or not it will impact the admissibility of any evidence.

The point is...... GA is former LE, CA is a nurse. They both KNOW they smelled human decomp. They shouldn't have touched the car... regardless of whether or not it appeared LE was interested in the car.

And they should also have made a point to tell LE about the smell in the car that night when they first got there...... they may have been what you call "cooperative", but they didn't know who was dead for sure at that point (even though most people with common sense could figure it out).... and what if KC really hadn't been the killer? What evidence of the "real" killer could they have cleaned up? They knew.

MOO.
 
The point is...... GA is former LE, CA is a nurse. They both KNOW they smelled human decomp. They shouldn't have touched the car... regardless of whether or not it appeared LE was interested in the car.

And they should also have made a point to tell LE about the smell in the car that night when they first got there...... they may have been what you call "cooperative", but they didn't know who was dead for sure at that point (even though most people with common sense could figure it out).... and what if KC really hadn't been the killer? What evidence of the "real" killer could they have cleaned up? They knew.

MOO.
GA and CA should have known not to touch it? What about LE LOL; that is exactly my point. Why should CA and GA know more or better about evidence preservation than LE?
Please see my links above in the thread that document that LE knew from the very beginning about the decomp smell.They knew about it because GA and CA told them about it , specifically and clearly with references to it being the smell of someone dead.
 
I posted a theory on KC and the evolving trunk smell here back in May. I thought it might be useful to bring forward. BTW, I believe Caylee was dumped on Suburban Dr. on the 20th.

I thought it would be good to put WAISI's observation and Bond's added detail in some timeline perspective.

June 20 - The smell of decomp might have been noticeable to a small degree in the trunk, which may have prompted KC to attempt to clean the trunk when she backed into the garage at her parents that day. It is likely the smell had not yet become noticeable in the passenger compartment, and the reasons why will become apparent below.

June 21 and June 22 - Based on pings, it appears KC never left Tony's and therefore would not have noticed any change in the smell of the car, because she did not use the car.

June 23 - TL was near the front passenger side of the Pontiac as KC poured gas into the car. KC was between him and the trunk. When KC opened the trunk to put the cans away TL turned to go shut the tailgate on his Jeep, walking away from the car. TL notes that KC made no attempt to keep him from the trunk, the only odd thing being (in his mind) that she wanted to pour the gas herself.

The fact that she let him near the car leads me to believe no smell had yet permeated the passenger compartment. Also, it seems likely that KC opened the trunk for the very first time since June 20 when she put the gas cans away, likely receiving a hefty waft of decomp in the process. :yuck: KC dodged a bullet because Tony had begun to walk away and was "shielded" by gasoline fumes between him and the trunk. :whistle:

June 24 - Now KC knows she has a problem with the odor in her trunk. This is why she blows past dad when he wants to get the tool from her trunk - she cannot let him smell it. GA does get close to the car, but never got to the rear of the vehicle before KC shoved the gas cans into his hands. Given the trunk was opened just briefly before George got there and the car was parked outside, there was ample time for what little odor escaped to dissipate enough so as not to register to GA. KC dodges another. :yow:

I think WAISI's initial observation that KC had to ditch the car somewhere due to the smell so that she did not have to use it to take AL to the airport still holds. To me, she begins formulating the plan the afternoon of the 24th or sometime on the 25th. :idea:

Knowing she only had a couple gallons of gas in the tank, she was pretty confident :snooty: she would run out by the evening of the 29th, thus avoiding using the car the morning of the 30th. After running out she would need to get the car back after taking Tony to the airport.

I don't think KC had things completely worked out in her mind, but it seems her first instinct was to enlist Amy's help to get gas for the car. This meant she had to explain the smell in advance so as not to surprise Amy :eek: when they both showed up to put gas in the car, thus prompting two advance calls and text.

June 25 - Either on this day or possibly the 24th (while driving away from the 'rents after racing George to the trunk) KC tells Amy about a horrible smell in the car during a phone conversation. She blames it on her dad, who she claims ran over something and it got stuck to the car. She said the smell was coming from the engine, so clearly by this time it has entered the passenger compartment.

June 26 - In a second phone conversation, KC tells Amy the smell has gotten much worse. :sick:

June 27 - In a text to Amy while driving north from the 'rents to TL's - before ditching the car at Amscot - KC tells Amy "There was definitely part of a dead animal plastered to the frame of my car." KC then texts Amy about running out of gas a few minutes later.

Of course she told Tony a different story - that the car had broken down and she contacted her dad, who would take care of it. Nevertheless, her plan is off to a great start. :woohoo:

June 28 - Sometime on Saturday KC realizes she has a real problem with the smell in the car, and formulates a plan to throw Jesse under the bus. Her first attempt is to call him around 1:30 PM and ask him if she can borrow his gas can. He is on the other side of town, however, and declines. :banghead:

June 29 - Knowing she has to get the car she reverts to the original plan and enlists Amy's help. She texts Amy on Sunday and asks if she can borrow her gas cans, but Amy reminds her they are in storage. Seems nothing is going her way. :banghead:

June 30 - Not to be denied, KC shows up at Amy's and they go to Target around noon to get a gas can (with Amy's money, of course :thumb:). After Amy leaves for work KC drives to the Amscot to put gas in the car, but sees it is missing. :banghead:

What puzzles me is what her plan was if the car was still there there. Leave Tony's jeep and take the Pontiac back to Tony's? The distance between the two is only 2.8 miles, so KC could have jogged or walked it, I suppose.

I am not convinced that KC breathed a sigh of relief when she saw the car was missing. She had to realize someone else had it and would eventually figure out what was causing the smell. I think this is what prompted her to make a second attempt at throwing Jesse under the bus.

July 1 - In the morning, KC leaves Andy F.'s and drives back to TL's apartment, where she stays for about 15 minutes - probably picking up some clothing. Then she calls Jesse and asks if she can take a shower at his place because she does not have a key to Tony's. :liar: Lot's of driving around for someone who can't afford gas, IMHO. :rolleyes:

I have no idea what her plan was, but it clearly started with seduction - leaving the bathroom door partly opened while she showered. Perhaps she was planning to steal something of value and place it at the crime scene after she'd finished bedding him, as has been speculated by many on this board. But Jesse did not fall for it, and luckily his roommate showed up soon after.

It is possible she actually did take something and plant it at the scene. KC pinged in an area consistent with the crime scene on two occasions during the evening of July 1: 7:15PM and 8:30 PM. In both cases she was there long enough to plant evidence. If she did plant something, whatever it was deteriorated by Dec. 11. :doh:

...thought I'd bump this stellar post along w/ an additional observation to further support the speculation that IMHO has been pretty well established - Caylee's body was outta the trunk pre-6/23. Won't go into all the reasons previously posted, but, realized this afternoon I don't think we ever made a kinda obvious observation.

Had Caylee's body still been in the trunk 6/23...besides all other reasons posted...there was absolutely no compelling reason for her to open the trunk of the Pontiac to place the empty gas can in there. IMHO, had the body still been in the trunk, Casey would've handed the empty gas can back to Tony and asked him to put it back in the Jeep. IMHO, this also supports JWG's timeline of the developing smell in the car and the opening 6/23 to put the gas cans in being Casey's first realization of how powerful the odor had become. :thumb: This synchs perfectly w/ the suggestion that Casey raced to the trunk 6/24 because of the odor - NOT a body - in there.

Maybe already covered...and I'm slow catching up to play Captain Obvious :doh:...but that (Casey being compelled to clean by discovering an unavoidable odor problem 6/23) kinda makes a Casey clean-up and blue-handled-trash-bag intro'd/used scenario have to happen somewhere other than in G&C's garage? IIRC, JWG offered a cleaning-container-of-convenience theory, IOW, why the Crystal Light or Gatorade bottle...I forget which one...might've contained cleaning product chemicals. If it was the Crystal Light bottle, perhaps LE has narrowed in when the pizza was ordered to establish when that bag likely went into the trunk <6/27. I mean...it is a pretty small trash bag...and the contents seemed pretty consistent w/ a group @ Tony's apt. eating & drinking in a single day.

I know we noodled on some unidentified #'s in the cell logs during this critical time...some of which where suggested to have been pizza places (franchise though...and IIRC...the pizza box in the blue-handled trash bag was kinda generic). Of course, anyone could've ordered the pizza....just thinkin' out loud here. :)

ETA: Playin' this out a bit. The 6/24 trip to G&C's to-do list might have been to return the gas cans AND do some cleaning. IF this was the case, Casey wouldn't have bothered to take cleaning solution from Tony's...she would've assumed she'd use something @ G&C's. IF that were the case...the blue-handled trash bag intro may have been sometime 6/24PM-6/27AM. Same can be said if cleaning was on the 6/27AM to-do list...so...tighten that in a bit 6/24PM-6/26PM.
 
GA and CA should have known not to touch it? What about LE LOL; that is exactly my point. Why should CA and GA know more or better about evidence preservation than LE?
Please see my links above in the thread that document that LE knew from the very beginning about the decomp smell.They knew about it because GA and CA told them about it , specifically and clearly with references to it being the smell of someone dead.

Did LE handle the car incorrectly? More than likely yes. However, when George and Cindy went to the impound lot to retrieve the car they both knew that something horrible had happened. George especially knew what that smell meant. They both decided against calling 911, to clean the car out instead, to go to work as if everything is normal and then try to find Casey. This whole car situation started long before 911 was called. George and Cindy knew that someone that was deceased had been in Casey's car. It appears to not have mattered to them who that person was. Cover up for Casey was more important at that time than the person who was deceased or that person's family. I think that is the biggest problem that some people have with George and Cindy, I know it is for me. George and Cindy gave the appearance of co-operation to LE but we also know that they co-operated only when they wanted to.

MOO
 
GA and CA should have known not to touch it? What about LE LOL; that is exactly my point. Why should CA and GA know more or better about evidence preservation than LE?
Please see my links above in the thread that document that LE knew from the very beginning about the decomp smell.They knew about it because GA and CA told them about it , specifically and clearly with references to it being the smell of someone dead.

Thank you, JBean. I have read your posts/links in the thread... and I understand what you are saying. But with all due respect, I don' happen to agree. I still believe CA and GA to have been cooperative only as long as they thought it was "Zanny" that LE was interested in as a suspect and not their precious Casey. They stopped "cooperating" the second they realized Casey was the prime (and only) suspect.

Again, JMO.
 
Thank you, JBean. I have read your posts/links in the thread... and I understand what you are saying. But with all due respect, I don' happen to agree. I still believe CA and GA to have been cooperative only as long as they thought it was "Zanny" that LE was interested in as a suspect and not their precious Casey. They stopped "cooperating" the second they realized Casey was the prime (and only) suspect.

Again, JMO.
Hi Snaz. I am only suggesting they were helpful at the beginning by calling 911,reporting the odor as a dead body, and turning over evidence and information without warrant. Beyond that I cannot support any of their behavior.

But my point is not about CA and GA but about the handling of the car by LE and whether it will have any impact on any evidence at trial which will hopefully bring us back to topic.
 
Hi Snaz. I am only suggesting they were helpful at the beginning by calling 911,reporting the odor as a dead body, and turning over evidence and information without warrant. Beyond that I cannot support any of their behavior.

But my point is not about CA and GA but about the handling of the car by LE and whether it will have any impact on any evidence at trial which will hopefully bring us back to topic.

Hi, JBean.... I hear ya... hopefully LE not securing the car immediately will not have any negative effect at trial.
 
GA and CA should have known not to touch it? What about LE LOL; that is exactly my point. Why should CA and GA know more or better about evidence preservation than LE?
Please see my links above in the thread that document that LE knew from the very beginning about the decomp smell.They knew about it because GA and CA told them about it , specifically and clearly with references to it being the smell of someone dead.
We should also remember that Casey had access to the car from the moment she was brought back home. The As had hours "alone" with the car. IMO, any evidence had already been compromised. I wish someone with a LE background could chime in.
 
We should also remember that Casey had access to the car from the moment she was brought back home. The As had hours "alone" with the car. IMO, any evidence had already been compromised. I wish someone with a LE background could chime in.
Just FYI, we do not have anyone involved with LE verified on the board.
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=92404"]Professional Posters - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

I understand that it was compromised, but all the more reason to button it up ASAP.
Like i said, may be absolutely nothing at all.
 
GA and CA should have known not to touch it? What about LE LOL; that is exactly my point. Why should CA and GA know more or better about evidence preservation than LE?
Please see my links above in the thread that document that LE knew from the very beginning about the decomp smell.They knew about it because GA and CA told them about it , specifically and clearly with references to it being the smell of someone dead.

I see what you mean-and I do think CA was the greatest help with her 911 call in the first place. But at some point, in the early morning hours of the
16th, it did dawn on GA and CA (or they were told) that everything was evidence-Remember when LA brought KC's bag back? CA insists that she asked the officer before she dumped that bag out.

Or-was CA covering her hieney with that elaborate story about how she asked to dump out the bag, and no one cared, and she pocketed the $200-just to demonstrate that the officers on the scene didn't care what she did? That way if someone asked later on, she could claim that she had no idea what she could touch, because the stinky police did not tell her...and she has another Anthony anecdote to back up her claims of LE failures.

Either way I guess, whether she knew not to clean the car, or she did not think it was important based on the ambivalence of LE, it might not be a good idea for the state to press her on this-They could end up going down a yucky road regarding the first responding officers, poor evidence collection, etc.
Listen to Johnny Cochran's closing argument in the OJ case-He says the most important factor in OJ's innocence is that the crime scene was "traipsed" through. And I would assume the state is going to name the A house as the crime scene.
 
It's a shame the car wasn't taken into evidence sooner. I wonder, though, if the vehicle and the evidence from the vehicle could have been made inadmissible because there was no search warrant on the 15th. Even if GA and CA had given permission that night for the vehicle to be impounded, I think a good defense attorney would be able to get the vehicle evidence tossed because LE had not waited for a search warrant.
 
It's a shame the car wasn't taken into evidence sooner. I wonder, though, if the vehicle and the evidence from the vehicle could have been made inadmissible because there was no search warrant on the 15th. Even if GA and CA had given permission that night for the vehicle to be impounded, I think a good defense attorney would be able to get the vehicle evidence tossed because LE had not waited for a search warrant.

Well thank goodness Casey doesn't appear to have a "good defense" lawyer. Sorry, I know that was not nice but it really makes me mad to know that this family was only concerned about a person being dead in Casey's car when they realized that person could have been Caylee.
 
It's a shame the car wasn't taken into evidence sooner. I wonder, though, if the vehicle and the evidence from the vehicle could have been made inadmissible because there was no search warrant on the 15th. Even if GA and CA had given permission that night for the vehicle to be impounded, I think a good defense attorney would be able to get the vehicle evidence tossed because LE had not waited for a search warrant.
Hi Luzer. was a search warrant issued for the car?
 
I don't believe the evidence points to any thorough trunk cleaning by the A's after they retrieved the car from the tow lot. I found one link pertaining to soil found in the trunk here, pg. 3/41 or 3175:

http://www.wesh.com/download/2009/0121/18530363.pdf

There is another detective's report mentioning visible soil in the trunk, but I've yet to find it.

Detectives found the exterior of the car clean, but no one reported observing the A's washing the exterior, or any water in the driveway suggesting a car wash.

Q14, Q15, and Q17 are all soil and dirt samples and residue obtained from the vehicle trunk (listed in link below). Yuri Melich also mentions the dirt and soil in his testimony at the bond hearing.

http://media.myfoxorlando.com/photo...eports-car-trunk/1/lg/11208-11280_Page_05.htm
 
But why should GA and CA take care to preserve evidence when even LE didn't make it a priority or put particular importance on it? LE let KC go to the car alone which tells me the car wasn't even on their radar.

GA was the one that was still insisting weeks later that he was afraid that the smell was caylee when he first got to the towyard. (8-4 interview) he was extremely cooperative and actually so was Cindy.
They reported the car, they reported the odor , they reported items removed, and the fact that they cleaned. They offered up the car freely and without warrant in an effort to help find their granddaughter.

I totally agree that CA and GA have done plenty of fact twisting, mistruths and general carp to hinder this investigation. but the car situation wasn't one of them, imo.

My only interest in this issue is whether or not it will impact the admissibility of any evidence.
From a legal position I do not know if it will hinder the admissibility...but this case is really unique in it's own right,
I would not be surprised if many acceptations are made, IMO should be made and I hope will be made because; It is in the car that much of the actual evidence does exist. And if it is an LE error of not confiscating the car from the first day, and IMO it is a huge LE error, I am not replying from legal knowledge if a lawyer can jump in please do....I think they will have to LET IT ALL IN.
 
The point is...... GA is former LE, CA is a nurse. They both KNOW they smelled human decomp. They shouldn't have touched the car... regardless of whether or not it appeared LE was interested in the car.

And they should also have made a point to tell LE about the smell in the car that night when they first got there...... they may have been what you call "cooperative", but they didn't know who was dead for sure at that point (even though most people with common sense could figure it out).... and what if KC really hadn't been the killer? What evidence of the "real" killer could they have cleaned up? They knew.

MOO.

Ideally, the car shouldn't have been moved from the impound yard. Once George and the tow yard owner smelled the odor of human decomposition, LE should have been called to come to the tow yard. They likely would have taken possession of it at that point.

If LE had taken possession of the Pontiac at the tow yard, we might be dealing with a different story right now.
 
They just asked GA nd CA for it and they gave it freely. he signed an affadavit. It just seems to me that to preserve something that may possily be so rich in evidence due to the decomp smell, should be paramount and not be freely accessible to anyone. Hey even if they sealed it off and told everyone to stay out of it until paperwork was done would be good. GA and CA were totally on board then. but to give KC access..alone? odd

this will not be the popular thinking.........
BBM: So this is where I get supper suspicious, I still believe that KC got mixed up with a mafia type on some level (who wants to remain anonymous) They/HE payed LE off (don't throw anything at me :)) and I think LE did turn an eye on a couple of corners. which will also include the first phone call the meter reader made stating he saw something way back in August of 08...
I also think the Milstein's are a gift to the "A"s from the same direction. I'll keep it short Not nice folks.
 
Hi Luzer. was a search warrant issued for the car?

I don't know if a search warrant was ever issued. But can you imagine if the car had been taken on the 15th? I think there would have been a lot of objections raised by the defense that could have gotten the car evidence thrown out.
 
The point is...... GA is former LE, CA is a nurse. They both KNOW they smelled human decomp. They shouldn't have touched the car... regardless of whether or not it appeared LE was interested in the car.

And they should also have made a point to tell LE about the smell in the car that night when they first got there...... they may have been what you call "cooperative", but they didn't know who was dead for sure at that point (even though most people with common sense could figure it out).... and what if KC really hadn't been the killer? What evidence of the "real" killer could they have cleaned up? They knew.

MOO.
MOO they knew very well even before that day that there was no Caylee other wise they would have gladly given the search team her garment to go find her. It really was not there job to tell LE Hay guys car smells like decomp you should confiscate it........I think however this is where LE did not use best judgement, GA seems cooperative, they did not use their brain at first, they just felt sorry for him. EITHER that or they made an intentional mistake.....
 
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